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How Trump’s Election Shook Obama: ‘What if We Were Wrong?’
- Thread starter Meus Renaissance
- Start date
My biggest issue with Obama was sometimes he was too much of a centrist (this can also be traced to his cow towing to the war on drugs, the military, and ICE). He should have never given up his seat for Trump. Illegal or not. He should have demanded a re election or fought the fucking GOP.
The "record number of deportations" part isn't exactly true:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-deported-more-people/
I thought it was true too until I decided to look it up just now. Devil is in the details.
I think Obama being indecisive and overthinking things really hurt the coalition.
He had great theory and ideology but I feel like he never really went in all the way and committed to it.
He hesitated and that really kept him from making some really big changes. Even if he would have failed when doing this he was garunteed not to make an impact with how he was indecisive.
He had great theory and ideology but I feel like he never really went in all the way and committed to it.
He hesitated and that really kept him from making some really big changes. Even if he would have failed when doing this he was garunteed not to make an impact with how he was indecisive.
What really was weird was when you look at each state map and especially districts many districts that voted for Obama suddenly voted for Trump in 2016 that sort of goes against your theory.
I mean the south the typical red states would go for Trump regardless but that does not explain how Obama districts suddenly turned red.
If the Democratic party keeps going to the left, ultimately I believe Obama will be remembered as a failure. He was essentially a continuation of the Bush administration when it came to foreign policy and flopped hard on healthcare. Many will also blame him for not taking a leadership role in the Democratic party and allowing Hillary Clinton to run in 2016.
Pretty much. It's important to remember that deportation numbers used to be something presidents didn't brag about.
While it doesn't have to be said, Dems picked the wrong candidate – I know many Dems who didn't want (another) Clinton so they just did not vote. We had the Bush dynasty for 12 years, many did not want the Dem dynasty. Mix in the silent fact we just had 8 years of a minority president and now a female president, the system over-corrected back to old white (or orange) guys – so the on the fence moderates went with what was thought of the lesser of two evils – and boy are we paying for it.
The Nordic countries have capitalist economies.
I feel like a lot of people are just ignorant (not in the pejorative way, I just mean they honestly don't know) of the differences between social democracy and the dismantling of capitalism for a command economy (government ownership of the means of production).
Those are inclusive concepts though. Obama didn't personally want to see people get locked up or deported necessarily but he was too much of a centrist to fight the GOP on dismantling ICE and the military and probably believed that allowing those organizations to persist would mean compromise with racist traitors that would then block him at every turn. I'm not relieving Obama of responsibility for these things of course - but I'd argue that that if he trusted and tried to compromise with Republicans less and fought them more and called them out more harshly, there would be less of these egregious situations.
Never trust "the people". They can be crazy stupid, easy to manipulate fools.
Even if you want what's the best for them, never trust their instincts, that they will do the right and logical thing.
Obama is an idealist, and I share his pain.
This is all a really big occasion to learn how humans are, how we are manipulated so easily on fear and desire, and how to go beyond this.
Trump reallly played on the shadow self of Americans, but he's too goddamn stupid to have done it on purpose. Thank God, because he would probably be emperor by now.
Even if you want what's the best for them, never trust their instincts, that they will do the right and logical thing.
Obama is an idealist, and I share his pain.
This is all a really big occasion to learn how humans are, how we are manipulated so easily on fear and desire, and how to go beyond this.
Trump reallly played on the shadow self of Americans, but he's too goddamn stupid to have done it on purpose. Thank God, because he would probably be emperor by now.
How so? Neither McCain nor Romney ran campaigns based on hatred and division and voting for Obama, especially in 2008, isn't an indicator that you don't have issues with people of color in spite of what a lot of people have argued (and I actually wish that was true).
If you look at the blue states Trump won what they have in common is that they have Republican legislatures that assisted Trump by disenfranchising and suppressing Democratic voters while ramping up resentment towards minorities. So there isn't anything weird about those districts turning red, many of them were red during the Bush years as well. Hillary gave up on those rural areas because she expected higher turnout in the urban areas that never materialized. It was a low turnout election that seemed to rest more on who people hated than who they loved and now we have to live with the consequences.
That's pretty interesting. I certainly wasn't aware of that part!
Yeah, If the man were half of what the crazier conservatives made him out to be I think we'd be in a better place. But that eagerness to bend the knee to the side making things worse left him being lukewarm on a number of issues that people suddenly seem to care about more now that he's not the one in power.
But even excepting all of that, I still find his administration's drone program and stuff like the NSA spying and renewal of the Patriot Act to be reprehensible. He made progress in many ways, but when it came to those things he pretty much followed up on what Bush was doing. Democrats seem so eager to gloss over the things Obama did that would have outraged them if he weren't on their ticket. Would I vote for him again? Obviously. But he doesn't deserve the deification that so many give him.
I have a mixed take on the drone policy. On one hand, it likely spared more lives than actually deploying soldiers. Look at the death toll of the Iraq war and how many fewer people suffered in comparison under Obama. He felt like he had to cow tow with the GOP to continue military engagements because they are war mongering pieces of shit, so this was a much less dangerous alternative. On the other hand, you're right - it's still reprehensible.
NSA spying was signed under W Bush. It was something Obama claims to have not really know about before Snowden - but the pursual of Snowden as a criminal and the general criminal pursuit of whistleblowers under Obama was also fucking terrible.
So yeah - I'm not entirely relieving him of these things, but they're a bit more contextually nuanced than some folks make it out to be. I agree that instead of trying to tiptoe around pandering to Republicans - he should have outright blocked all of these things because obviously human rights come before some bizarre sense of political handholding.
Obama was frankly too concerned (at least it seemed like to me) about reaching across the isle to scummy republicunts who wanted nothing to do with him. I hope the next Dem president drops all pretense of reaching out to buffoons and appoints nobody but democratic and progressive people in seats of power.
I hate vague nothing statements like this. What "big change" was Obama going to make with the congress he had? I mean specific policy he was going to be able to accomplish.
This seems woefully revisionist and ignorant to the the fact that the "wrong candidate" gather millions more votes than her opponent and also finished decently in the 08 primaries. This is revisionism is worse than anything that happened in 2016. Hilary was the right candidate until she wasn't, which was right after the vote happened. The left's obsession with perfect candidates is why they, even in face of the expected blue wave still look hopeless in 2020 with no clear cut leader.
Obviously you want to correct missteps and Hilary surely had hers but more importantly Democrats need to learn how to take losses without going nuclear and blaming everybody in sight and going on purges.
Sometimes people are just scum. A black president made millions on poor white people feel forgotten somehow and Trump was able to capitalize.
Might have been different if Obama went after Wall Street for their role in the financial crisis.
That took away his "man of the people" shine. People saw massive bailout and CEO giving themselves bonuses.
Made it a lot easier for a demagogue like Trump to reach disillusioned voters.
That took away his "man of the people" shine. People saw massive bailout and CEO giving themselves bonuses.
Made it a lot easier for a demagogue like Trump to reach disillusioned voters.
I think it definitely is a factor for how Trump won, white people saw this well-spoken successful black guy in what amounts to the most powerful position in the world. It really didn't sit well with white folks. Fuck those people though, you would think his presidency would have at least eased tensions a bit.
Not surprised he was blindsided by Trump's election. At the end of the day, he seemed pretty clueless about what americans wanted. He was a pretty bad president IMO. His only redeeming quality was that he was very charming and thus very popular with liberals. But looking at his record and failure to LEAD the American people just irks me to death.
- Sandy Hook Shooting: He cried on stage. Great to see. Compassionate and human. But what then? He did nothing to stop the second shooting. He let Republicans control the debate. He blamed the lack of action on Republicans saying no. And while it's a valid excuse to some, he's the fucking president of the united states. he is supposed to lead. He is supposed to get shit done by any means necessary. Compromise, give republicans what they want, they control both chambers of congress, let them win a few battles but try to get something in fucking return. Do SOMETHING. Anything. Bill Clinton had to work with newt fucking Gingrich. But he got welfare reform done, banned ARs and had several other legislative accomplishments despite Reps impeaching him. Obama couldnt get anything through the legislative branch other than...
- Obamacare. His one big legislative accomplishment and he couldnt get a single republican vote. thats all he needed. One. To make it a law and something Trump couldnt gut the day he walked into office. I dont care if you have to promise John McCain to go to war with Syria, do it. Do something. Anything to get that vote. Now Obamacare has been gutted to oblivion. Much all other accomplishments of his like the Iran Deal and Dreamers act. All of his big moves were executive actions that were easily reversed thanks to Trump exercising his executive powers. What's the point of getting shit done when it's going to be easily reversed in a year?
While his inability to lead congress and compromise with them was bad, His biggest failure was not leading the american people. He oversaw two big movements and did nothing. Both the BLM and Occupy Wallstreet movements were criticized for not having leaders, well you have a black president from a working class family leading the nation, why couldnt he take the lead? A lot of times he was too afraid to side with black people after these shootings. He didnt want to be hated by white people so all he could say was that Trayvon could have been his son. Grow some balls man and stand up for your people and call out your corrupt police department, and the racists in this country. If anything, americans respect someone who speaks their mind... just look at trump. he said everything wrong and still got elected. Obama couldnt even criticize cops. he should have been down in Ferguson, talking to people on the streets and getting shit done. it's why people elected him.
Then there are the ridiculous decisions to sit idly by while republicans blocked his Supreme Court nominee, while Putin played him like a little bitch first with Syria and then with the elections, (i mean he told Putin to cut it out. Thats it. Cut it out. Like he's a toddler. To Putin. I bet Putin laughed out loud when he hung up.) and making Comey, a republican, the FBI director. I dont know why democrats feel its necessary to put Republicans in charge. Republicans dont do this. The FBI was extremely leaky under Comey, leaking all anti-hilary stuff to Rudy Gulliani and Comey didnt do anything. And what did Obama do? Nothing. He should have been fired when he called Hillary extremely careless on national tv over some fucking emails.
And finally letting Israel bomb Gaza three separate times in 8 years killing thousands of women and children, personally signing off on droning pakistani villages that killed hundreds of women and children, not getting the doctor who helped them locate Osama Bin Laden out of pakistan, letting Asad drop chemical weapons on his own people after making that the red line, and letting ISIS take half of Iraq were all awful fucking moves that made the world a more dangerous place.
But hey he was charming and could make jokes and sing on Jimmy Fallon so we all love him.
- Sandy Hook Shooting: He cried on stage. Great to see. Compassionate and human. But what then? He did nothing to stop the second shooting. He let Republicans control the debate. He blamed the lack of action on Republicans saying no. And while it's a valid excuse to some, he's the fucking president of the united states. he is supposed to lead. He is supposed to get shit done by any means necessary. Compromise, give republicans what they want, they control both chambers of congress, let them win a few battles but try to get something in fucking return. Do SOMETHING. Anything. Bill Clinton had to work with newt fucking Gingrich. But he got welfare reform done, banned ARs and had several other legislative accomplishments despite Reps impeaching him. Obama couldnt get anything through the legislative branch other than...
- Obamacare. His one big legislative accomplishment and he couldnt get a single republican vote. thats all he needed. One. To make it a law and something Trump couldnt gut the day he walked into office. I dont care if you have to promise John McCain to go to war with Syria, do it. Do something. Anything to get that vote. Now Obamacare has been gutted to oblivion. Much all other accomplishments of his like the Iran Deal and Dreamers act. All of his big moves were executive actions that were easily reversed thanks to Trump exercising his executive powers. What's the point of getting shit done when it's going to be easily reversed in a year?
While his inability to lead congress and compromise with them was bad, His biggest failure was not leading the american people. He oversaw two big movements and did nothing. Both the BLM and Occupy Wallstreet movements were criticized for not having leaders, well you have a black president from a working class family leading the nation, why couldnt he take the lead? A lot of times he was too afraid to side with black people after these shootings. He didnt want to be hated by white people so all he could say was that Trayvon could have been his son. Grow some balls man and stand up for your people and call out your corrupt police department, and the racists in this country. If anything, americans respect someone who speaks their mind... just look at trump. he said everything wrong and still got elected. Obama couldnt even criticize cops. he should have been down in Ferguson, talking to people on the streets and getting shit done. it's why people elected him.
Then there are the ridiculous decisions to sit idly by while republicans blocked his Supreme Court nominee, while Putin played him like a little bitch first with Syria and then with the elections, (i mean he told Putin to cut it out. Thats it. Cut it out. Like he's a toddler. To Putin. I bet Putin laughed out loud when he hung up.) and making Comey, a republican, the FBI director. I dont know why democrats feel its necessary to put Republicans in charge. Republicans dont do this. The FBI was extremely leaky under Comey, leaking all anti-hilary stuff to Rudy Gulliani and Comey didnt do anything. And what did Obama do? Nothing. He should have been fired when he called Hillary extremely careless on national tv over some fucking emails.
And finally letting Israel bomb Gaza three separate times in 8 years killing thousands of women and children, personally signing off on droning pakistani villages that killed hundreds of women and children, not getting the doctor who helped them locate Osama Bin Laden out of pakistan, letting Asad drop chemical weapons on his own people after making that the red line, and letting ISIS take half of Iraq were all awful fucking moves that made the world a more dangerous place.
But hey he was charming and could make jokes and sing on Jimmy Fallon so we all love him.
My only response to this very long hot take is Bill Clinton was able to work with the Republican Congress because he wasn't a black man. No one in Congress said back in 1992 that their goal was to make Bill Clinton a one term president and if they had they would have been rightfully roasted for putting their party ahead of the country but it was acceptable for Mitch McConnell to say that about Obama. Considering the unprecedented obstruction Obama faced it's a miracle he accomplished anything.
And I work with people who believe in their heart of hearts that racism didn't exist until Obama came along filled with his hatred of white people to destroy race relations. You think with people in this country that detached from reality that Obama being more outspoken and militant would have been a good idea? You must have wanted to watch the country burn.
Ahh yes, the everpresent. Democrats are terrible, and somehow even responsible for the Republicans failings. How convenient, to be THE one to blame for the mistakes both parties make somehow.
Yeah, whatever. Keep on waiting for that "blame" to be accepted.
Right, its amazing. And the Conservatives will keep these flames going while they cleanup elections. It must be nice to have your opposition cannabilize itself after every minor setback.
Ahh I see he's a genius because he didn't piss of white people...
How about we blame the lies on those who told it?
Trump lies everyday, and the whole world shouts about it everyday. Obama told his, and regardless of how eloquent he put it, he has to be accountable for it. The DNC handling of the elections tells you everything you need to know about how much change they actually want. It doesn't reflect its people.
Demand more, don't turn Obama into something he wasn't. That's not the answer, that won't change anything.
This
Obama, and to a larger extent Democrats in general, made the mistake of not taking the threat of Trump and the Alt-Right seriously enough, but that's a mistake of hindsight. In reality, Trump winning was still a longshot and the fact that he did doesn't mean it was inevitable, just that we unfortunately had the perfect storm of factors that made it happen.
Obama was a terrible President he didn't go to war with Syria for healthcare.
I agree on ICE and drug offenses. But you have to realize that Obama operated within a set of parameters. Instead of abolishing ICE he ruled that they prioritize immigrants with criminal records for deportation. Instead of moving marijuana from schedule 2 drug, he asked DoJ for light sentencing and commuted the sentences with his executive power.
But now that Trump changed things, I hope the next Dem president breaks all these "parameters" and "decorum" and not be afraid of rocking the boat.
It's a little more complicated than that you have to remember if you look at every single poll the economy was number one reason for many voting for Trump, Hillary said she would continue a lot of Obamas policies and Obama himself admitted that for many in the rustbelt felt they got left behind in that regard.
So it's easy to say racism was the most motivating factor because of the horrific statments he made but the economic situation was also a big one combine that with Trumps comments on immigration and how he claimed jobs was lost because of immigrants.
He was of course lying his ass off since many of those jobs those people had lost was because of other factors than immigration such as automation and industries such as coal that was not viable anymore.
But the way his campaign managed to deflect any criticism and fought of any attacks by the media and somehow get the media to give him more free airtime, by him making outrageous statements and basically make sure Trumps name was mentioned on every news cycle was as a stroke of genius it's a pretty malicious way to run a campaign since you are appealing to the fears of the voter, but still from a political operators perspective pretty genius.
It really is shocking. I had thought before Nov 2016 we may not ever see a republican president again, unless they dramatically shifted their platform. In some ways, Trump did, or at least the rhetoric, but he actually made it more hateful and exclusionary, so it felt like there was no way he could win. We were wrong.
There's always a chance since the GOP finds ways to cheat, even using other countries.
ITT I learned that privilege equals genius but really that statement sums up Trump's entire life pretty well. If his strategy was so ingenious it should be working for the Republican party as a whole, not just Trump.
And I feel as if I have to repeat what I said earlier in that Hillary won lower class vote. People keep blaming Trump's victory on poor white people when it was middle class working white men that overwhelming switched from being Democrats to Republicans. Last I checked those guys were doing pretty well financially so why were they so angry again?
This coupled with being unapologetic to the right and completely reforming the US foreign policy.
You fundamentally don't understand the process in which ideas become reality if you can't appreciate the core concept in my post about balancing theory with pragmatism.
Obama wasn't confident in his ideology and never committed to it.
You do realize life isn't all pragmatism right?
This comes down to his entire presidency. He could of pushed much harder for much more radical policy when he was in office and when Dems had a majority. Instead he tried to walk a line including everyone as if the other side was going to cooperate. He chickened out on his own ideology and never really committed to it fully due to fear of it not going over well with the other side. Look how that turned out when he even tried to be a centrist...
Obama never committed to his ideology fully and it left him open to having it labeled as extreme when theybsame exact thing would of happened if he moved the goal post further from the start.
Ehhh sure I do but you don't seem to understand fundamentally what someone means when they want you to specify and instead you continue to talk in vague garrulous talking points. No, I don't appreciate the core concept of your post as its far too common to see someone post verbose garbage that actually has no quantitive substance behind it.
As much as I would love another Obama in place of Trump, just... no. Our politicians need to follow the rules that they wrote for themselves. If anyone's going to make demands and go against the law, it should be the people. But not enough are quite upset enough to do that yet.
If you thought Conservatives were mad before, what you're suggesting would've almost certainly ripped this country in half.
Good. They need to be silenced and disallowed from being involved in politics.
Oh okay, so you just have zero interest in the actual subtleties of governance and socio-economic cohesion. Destroy the country to own the racists.
America is to stupid, lazy, and selfish for the likes of a President like Obama.
We get what we deserve.
We get what we deserve.
I don't think we should be allowing a party of neo nazis, women haters, and white supremacists pedaling anti science and anti intellectualism while simultaneously hawking warmongering, rampant militarism, and deregulation of industries that have failed the people and the free market to have a political voice in this country. This has nothing to do with any of what you're strawmanning about.
I do not want to live under a junta, even if it means seeing the GOP destroyed. Anyone that does is incredibly shortsighted.
The democratic process is not a strawman. You were calling for Barack Obama to flagrantly overstep his bounds as President and ignore both the rule of law and the democratic process over what at the time was purely an ideological difference between parties (it may prove that actual illegal activity occurred, but we're still waiting on an investigation). That's authoritarianism, not democracy. How do you think the Conservative wing of this country would have reacted to that? How do you think they would react once in a position of power?
You do know the gop was formed after the destruction of it' unsalvagebly corrupt predecessor right?
Destruction at whose hands? I'm not against the destruction of political parties, but it should never be done by a sitting president.
Edit: And I actually don't know the history of the GOP, so a summary or a link to the event you're talking about would be nice.