I am a lifelong petrolhead, but lately I find myself hating car culture more and more

[Lightning Count]

Let me now before anyone jumps, I still enjoy cars generally, but I realise just how terrible petrol and diesel cars are for the planet and some aspects of car culture are really making me very cynical.

That said I have become very disillusioned with some aspects of car culture, specificallly the very top end performance cars, they are far too extreme to ever be usable at their full potential, only 15 years ago 600bhp was considered pushing the limits of what road cars are capable of, now we have cars pushing three times that. Really only the most skilled drivers could hope to max one out without risking a serious crash which could kill the driver. It's irresponsible, it's wasteful and frankly it is not what the car industry should be doing given how culpable the industry is in the destruction of the environment.

I also find myself now hating media which celebrates this, it's all massively self indulgent and frankly tone deaf in this day and age. There was a time when I loved these shows, now when I watch them, I just get frustrated about how unnecessary it all is and I find most of the hosts to be insufferable save for a few exceptions.

I also hate how some cities and suburbs are designed around car ownership to the point where not owning a car is massive disadvantage match this up to inadequate public transport and it can really make living in some areas impossible without a car.

Anyone else finding themselves feeling this way?

 

[jchap]

I do enjoy a high performance car and feel no guilt for driving for fun. That said, for daily commuting, I'm perfectly willing to switch to more economical and sustainable options as soon as the infrastructure and cost for performance is equivalent to ICE options. I think most people feel this way. The bottom dollar is cost of ownership and usability for the vast majority of the market.

 

[Psychotext]

I've always been a petrol head but I've gone from being all about performance cars, to being all about the older stuff (form over function).

Only problem is of course that a lot of the older cars have engines that pollute significantly more than the new stuff. Maybe I need to get into electric swapped classics when the batteries get small enough!

 

[dr.rocktopus]

I wouldn't say I'm the opposite, but the internet and social media has made it a lot easier to find a niche. I'm not sure what media you're looking at, but if you want a celebration of regular cars, you really can't go wrong with Regular Car Reviews. Doug DeMuro has a bit of an acquired taste in his cadence, but his reviews are almost deconstructions of cars, cheap to obscene, with his obsessiveness over the details yet reviewing every car in the exact same format. Likewise, Savagegeese is a another who will point out usability, practicality, and technical detail while not losing sight of the real consumer.

I never had much of an appreciation for the super/hyper car space because they are so out of reach. It's so unrealistic for me that I just don't care.

If anything, I feel the end of days. We absolutely need to move on from ICE powered cars, though I think for a while we are not quite going to have something as cheap and fun as a BRZ is in the EV space. ICE engineering is at an absolute zenith right now, and I will miss the bits of personality from an engine, a transmission, and feel of something that doesn't weigh 3500lb+. But we can't keep them around for personality.

 

[Deleted member 1086]

it's crazy when you realize a standard Toyota minivan puts out more horsepower now than most of the 60s and 70s muscle cars did.

 

[keysersöze]

I was in the same boat, I just got a Tesla Model S though and that instant torque is just amazing. EVs are awesome.

 

[Truckondo]

As far as environmental impact, I would say there is more damage being done by people who don't know or care about cars than people who mod and maintain their cars. Plenty of cars out there with leaking engines that pollute more than a "illegally" modified 4 cylinder.

 

[kess]

Curbside Classic had a feature the other day kind of about this -- Maria Theresa Strasse before, during and after cars. Also worth reading about is how the Dutch began to prioritize bike transportation in the 70s.

Motorcycle and truck culture is even worse due to the massive pollution dirt bikes and coal rollers cause relative to their footprint.

 

[Deleted member 1086]

Excited for Ford to make a electric Mustang coupe in the future. Love my current GT but it is pretty darn wasteful.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

I agree with everything OP said. But how bad cars are for the planet and the problem with current super/hyper cars are two completely separate problems imo.
These cars have risen to a completely different price segment and therefore completely different audience and production numbers. There are so few of them that even the amount of cars out there over 800bhp (even though some of them are still somewhat affordable) don't make the super slightest dent in the CO2 levels of our planet.

The problem I have with the performance numbers is that tires and emissions were always limiting factors. They figured out emissions and tires have gotten a lot better (almost 1.3g mechanical grip on a road legal tire? holy shit), but the bhp of the current super high end hypercars is not in line with current day tires, meaning the power is only fully usable in a straight line at over 150km/h, below that you need electronics or a real soft pussy foot on the gas pedal (or other limters).

For which road is this? If it's for the track then in which division can you run this? If it's for fun on the track, then... it's not more fun to drive than a Caterham or an Ariel Atom. I don't understand it at all. Gordon Murray's T.50 is the only car in that price region that I can wrap my head around - you can use it every day, it's has a comfortable suspension, it will sound amazing, it's extremely light, it has unique gadgets, it revs super high without turbo charging aaand it "only" has 650hp, because more is pretty stupid in a road car.

 

[Walter White Walker]

The only use I have for cars is to get from A to B reliably. Otherwise don't care.

 

[Scottoest]

The fascination of hypercars is in seeing how wild and far they can push how a car can look or perform - the self-indulgence is the point. They are far out of the price range of the average person, and are made in tiny quantities, so I'm hardly bothered by it. It's fun to see what bonkers-ass car Lamborghini or Bugatti will make next. More recently it's been interesting to see how these companies integrate electric motors and stuff to enhance performance further.

Any cultural "celebration" of high-performance cars also hasn't really stopped the relentless march towards low-emissions vehicles and and electric vehicles, because ultimately practicality is what matters to the majority of the rest of us.

As for cities being designed around cars - sure, that's a problem, though it's more of a civic planning and social engineering one.

Motorcycle and truck culture is even worse due to the massive pollution dirt bikes and coal rollers cause relative to their footprint.

Click to shrink...

"Rolling coal" is the single dumbest subculture I've ever seen. Celebrating the belching of thick, visible pollution into the air - yeehaw!

 

[Spacejaws]

As someone who has had friends die speeding, it makes me sick when my collegues laugh about speeding and screech out of the car part to show off.

Reminds decades ago that drink driving was considered no big deal, and now we would shit all over someone suggesting as much. Speeding is so common and speed laws are largely considered little more than a beautrcratic nuisance. I hate it. I have an absolute fear of driving now. Passed my test years ago but have panic attacks behind the wheel. I don't think I'll ever drive again.

 

[Kthulhu]

I definitely think the culture of mass ownership of cars is toxic, but I don't real see how enthusiast car shows are. It always stuck me more as appreciating the mechanics and design of cars.

I think the former can only really be solved by implementing good public transportation. Otherwise everyone will want to own a car because they have to.

 

[construct]

i had a tesla model 3 and loved it but it was so surgical sometimes and im at the age and have the money to buy someting "fun" so i bought a nice manuel high-end performance car and while its fun the guilt (and maintenance) is killing me so i'll be going back to tesla for a Y after a year. i also have a motorcycle for "fun" so that should be sufficient enough.

also lots of guilt about owning a tesla with a moron like elon behind the wheel but ultimately the product is good and they have good engineers.

 

[Nobleman Swerve]

Frankly those stratospheric hypercars are really just toys for the ultra-rich. I just can't see anything $100k+ as a practical, usable, sensible vehicle. Great if you have the disposable income I suppose, but at that point you have a toy, not a car. I just never could see myself driving one, as everywhere I go I'd be petrified of damaging the damn thing.

On the entire opposite end of the spectrum, I've fallen head over heels with my (new to me) '94 Mazda Miata. 100HP to the rear wheels on a good day, weighs about as much as a matchbox, and is basically an anti-depressant on wheels. Paid less than five grand for the thing and have just been enjoying myself slowly restoring and modifying it into being the perfect daily and second car.

All for a literal fraction of the price of what my Golf cost me new.

 

[T-Virus]

I'm more annoyed that nowadays manual transmissions are dying.

 

[Jroc]

I wouldn't worry too much about the morality of being an automotive enthusiast.

The enthusiast market is absolutely tiny compared to the everyday consumer market that only cares about getting from A to B in comfort. The people who daily drive light-duty trucks like the Ford F-150 or Dodge RAM are doing way more harm to the environment than someone who drives a Subaru BRZ or fixes up muscle cars on the weekend. It's the SUV/Truck driving suburban sprawl population that needs to change the most. Even after electrification takes over I don't think it'll be wrong for hobbyists to continue working on and enjoying old cars. It's just such a minuscule number of people in the grand scheme of things.

As for car culture I absolutely can't stand it. People say videogame journalism is a joke, but automotive journalism is just as terrible. Endless videos of youtubers being flown out to private test tracks for exclusive hands-on test drives with new luxury cars. If it's a luxury car you say it's super comfortable but not very sporty, if it's a sports car you say its super fun but not super comfortable. Absolute surface level analysis that rarely says anything critical about the car or the company.

SavageGeese has the most integrity I've seen and seems to do actual reviews from the engineering to the usability. RCR is also fun but some of his reviews start to get a little too samey after a while. I find myself skipping 90% of videos and articles related to anything that costs over $80,000 because honestly who cares? Unless it's a car with a crazy depreciation curve I'm likely never going to be able to drive one, let alone own one.

 

[Zen]

This was me last year. I love the engineering and science of cars, and appreciate their performance and history - but by and large, car culture is toxic masculinity made manifest. It's slowly changing, with more progressive YT car channels gaining popularity.

 

[turbobrick]

I do enjoy a high performance car and feel no guilt for driving for fun. That said, for daily commuting, I'm perfectly willing to switch to more economical and sustainable options as soon as the infrastructure and cost for performance is equivalent to ICE options. I think most people feel this way. The bottom dollar is cost of ownership and usability for the vast majority of the market.

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Yeah same. I have no problem with an electric car for daily commuting, but I won't be getting rid of my ICE cars.

I still like old cars that are deathtraps and terrible for the environment and will continue to own them, but I just don't need to drive them all the time.

 

[Failburger]

I was the same.

Spent way too much money on wips, was a mechanic, and generally was obsessed with auto performance.

But I hated the people I was around and, frankly, auto racing is a rich mans sport.

I drive a Chevy Bolt now and it's, frankly, the best commuter I have ever owned. So much that I don't really care about ICE vehicles anymore.

 

[Kamek]

I love a good road trip, but I was watching a documentary last night about high-speed rail and how the car/airline lobbyists kind of put the kibosh on that kind of stuff for government funded rail in the US. I'd love to have some high speed rail to travel from city to city, and no, amtrack's shit speeds don't count.

 

[entremet]

One of the co-hosts of the popular NPR show--Car Talk hated cars.

Car Talk Co-Host Tom Magliozzi 'Hated Cars'

At first, I had the impulse to begin this story explaining why I enjoyed Car Talk as a kid even though I didn’t know anything about cars. But to even supply an explanation is to violate the spirit of what made the radio show special. As long as you found the task of identifying and solving...

jalopnik.com

 

[turbobrick]

frankly, auto racing is a rich mans sport.

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I disagree. Though it depends on what level of auto racing. I done many track days as a poor college student.

 

[Failburger]

I disagree. Though it depends on what level of auto racing. I done many track days as a poor college student.

Click to shrink...

Let me rephrase.

Being competitive in auto racing is a rich mans sport.

 

[siteseer]

frankly i don't think these ultra high performance cars are driven that much anyway. a ho-hum f150 with 200,000 miles probably has polluted more than 2 dozen garage queens. and there are millions upon millions of pick ups. while the sports car market is active its no where near the size of the other segments of the industry. that said, i understand about the current horse power wars, its starting to get dull. also as another poster mentioned, as you evolve as a 'car guy' you start to appreciate older cars, more unique/forgotten cars and the shiny new 'best ever' is not so shiny, at least i have.

 

[Parch]

The internet makes it easy to be a car nut.
I do like it, and I think pushing the performance limits is acceptable as long as there are people willing to pay the ridiculous costs. The human race should try to be as technologically advanced as they can be, and automobile tech is pretty incredible. There has been huge leaps even in the last 10 years, and adding electric hybrid to boost performance is even more impressive. It's like engine performance and horsepower is no longer holding back capabilities. It cost ridiculous amounts of money to maintain a Bugatti because to have a car capable of 200MPH is really pushing the physics limits of tires and suspensions. But hey, I'm not paying for it, so as long as some crazy billionaire is willing to pay for technological advancement, go for it.

 

[T-Virus]

Sure. I get how hypercars are barely driven by their owners but when I see a Shelby GT350R being a garage queen and only taken out for Cars and Coffee once a month, it saddens me.

 

[Chasex]

Yeah I agree the entire scene is full of douchebags arguing about the same crap over and over. I used to be big into BMWs and that culture is even worse than normal. Euro cars in general have suffered a lot due to regulations, but American cars are better than ever. I just got a C8 and it's a ton of fun. I'll just enjoy the car and not ascribe to any particular type of culture or community.

 

[mattlikewhoa]

The older I get, the more I just keep to myself or smaller group of car friends. I still have a project car, and I still street every so often (kids and life in general slows things down, but I'm cool with that).

I am not into super or hyper cars. I have access to some (my uncle), but I'll just stick to what I know and love (90's Japanese cars).

As to YouTube? I don't follow any major channels. A few Japanese one or drifting specific ones.

 

[turbobrick]

frankly i don't think these ultra high performance cars are driven that much anyway. a ho-hum f150 with 200,000 miles probably has polluted more than 2 dozen garage queens. and there are millions upon millions of pick ups. while the sports car market is active its no where near the size of the other segments of the industry. that said, i understand about the current horse power wars, its starting to get dull. also as another poster mentioned, as you evolve as a 'car guy' you start to appreciate older cars, more unique/forgotten cars and the shiny new 'best ever' is not so shiny, at least i have.

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Yeah, hypercars and garage queens really have almost no environmental impact just because they're so rarely driven.

My taste in cars has definitely changed over the years. Maybe because I'm focusing more on what's actually obtainable, like 80s and 90s cars that most everyone else no longer cares about.

 

[jwhit28]

There's a place for the super high performance cars and this will be the last gasp as they become electrified, but most of the bigger car communities do celebrate sensible cars. Donut Media's biggest car show has been about a Miata for the past year.

 

[Blake the drunk]

Excited for Ford to make a electric Mustang coupe in the future. Love my current GT but it is pretty darn wasteful.

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random question, but who is that in your avatar? lmao

 

[Parch]

Excited for Ford to make a electric Mustang coupe in the future. Love my current GT but it is pretty darn wasteful.

Click to shrink...

DeMuro loves the new electric Mustang. It will be forever criticized for being called a Mustang and it probably shouldn't, but it is still an impressive electric vehicle.

 

[Deleted member 8118]

I absolutely love cars and motorsports, but the state that car culture is in is pretty bad. I feel like car culture is had turned into some Forza Horizon archetype.

It feels like a lot of people who go out and buy a 500hp Dodge Challenger immediately think they're apart of enthusiast group doing meets and all. I'm not usually one to gatekeep, but that's just how I've felt after being apart of a ton of different scenes when it comes to cars. A lot of meets end up being shutdown because people don't know how to behave.

I don't go on cruises anymore, I don't drive fast all of the time, I don't even care about talking about cars with other people besides a small group that I have.

Anyways, I'm just going to hold on to the Porsche 944 I just bought. I might end up with an 80s 911 and a BMW 635csi further down the line.

I have absolutely no plans of buying a newer car. Only old manual cars for me.

Edit- Also, as far as the environmental impact thing goes, it's possible to have a low environmental impact and still own an older car. Unless you live in a suburb and daily drive it, it shouldn't be a problem. I have my car in the city and I just drive it to get groceries from time to time.

 

[Ouroboros]

Same here OP. I'm all about the technology in cars that lead to more MPG now...and lightweight sports coupe like the new BRZ and Miata. Can't wait to see the new finalized Z car.

 

[Karateka]

Cars are nothing special, just 4 wheels you can take to get somewhere. Remember, it is the destination, not the journey, that is truly important

 

[Zen]

There's a place for the super high performance cars and this will be the last gasp as they become electrified, but most of the bigger car communities do celebrate sensible cars. Donut Media's biggest car show has been about a Miata for the past year.

Click to shrink...

And what a show it has been!

 

[turbobrick]

Cars are nothing special, just 4 wheels you can take to get somewhere. Remember, it is the destination, not the journey, that is truly important

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nah, that's a disagree from me, but I also enjoy driving.

When I actually had a job, the commute was better than actually being at work.

 

[Darren Lamb]

I was the same.

Spent way too much money on wips, was a mechanic, and generally was obsessed with auto performance.

But I hated the people I was around and, frankly, auto racing is a rich mans sport.

I drive a Chevy Bolt now and it's, frankly, the best commuter I have ever owned. So much that I don't really care about ICE vehicles anymore.

Click to shrink...

Yeah the Bolt rules! Such a good city car, it's small but has a lot of cargo space and is surprisingly fun to drive. Only bummer for me is the charging speed, I was shocked that they're building the new EUV platform on the same battery technology. Because of it I think I might go for a Model Y or ID.4 when my lease is up.

Never was a petrolhead but now that I've gone electric I find it fun to keep tabs of the news, it feels more like following new cellphone releases or computer hardware/consoles.

 

[Black_Stride]

I was near one hundred percent sure this was an Onikyan thread.
Super disappointed its just about technology getting better and upper echelon cars getting stupid quick.

Well might as well piss off some petrolheads with picture of oni cars.

 

[DJ_Lae]

Cars are great to look at, listen to, and appreciate. But my own car is just there for utility.

There are some horrendously dumb subsections of car culture, though.

 

[Deleted member 1086]

random question, but who is that in your avatar? lmao

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Maren Morris

DeMuro loves the new electric Mustang. It will be forever criticized for being called a Mustang and it probably shouldn't, but it is still an impressive electric vehicle.

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I have nothing against the Mach E, I think it's intriguing and would like to drive one, but I like the 2 door coupe style of car better. I'm pretty sure an electric Mustang coupe is in the pipeline.

 

[turbobrick]

I was near one hundred percent sure this was an Onikyan thread.
Super disappointed its just about technology getting better and upper echelon cars getting stupid quick.

Well might as well piss off some petrolheads with picture of oni cars.

Click to shrink...

I don't hate them, but they're not my thing. Probably because of the extreme camber, or something. I am a fan of heavily lowered cars and have plenty of experience dragging my exhaust and sometimes frame/underbody over speedbumps.

I'm pretty sure an electric Mustang coupe is in the pipeline.

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I agree, though I don't know how soon it will arrive. In my opinion what makes sports cars harder to go electric is weight, and right now batteries are just so heavy. Granted the mustang really isn't a small or light car, so it could still work, but would be much harder to do on something miata sized, where you either compromise weight or range. That and I would still want a manual transmission even though I'm well aware an electric car would probably be slower with one.

 

[construct]

no stance allowed

 

[Zen]

Is it possible to stance without the insane camber and lowering? I don't mind the general aesthetic

 

[MrKlaw]

I had so much fun driving a track day in a lotus Exige. I'd be totally happy with something small, light and simple like that as a fun weekend track car.

I'm probably going EV next hopefully for a long term car

 

[turbobrick]

Is it possible to stance without the insane camber and lowering? I don't mind the general aesthetic

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Yes. Generally the extreme camber is to keep the tires under the fender because the wheels are so wide and low offset. You can easily have normal camber with less extreme wheels. It will sometimes also need adjustable control arms. For example, on my 240sx the least camber I can get in the rear is like 3.8 degrees on the stock suspension arms. I'd rather have it closer to 1.5 or 2

 

[Zen]

Yes. Generally the extreme camber is to keep the tires under the fender because the wheels are so wide and low offset. You can easily have normal camber with less extreme wheels. It will sometimes also need adjustable control arms. For example, on my 240sx the least camber I can get in the rear is like 3.8 degrees on the stock suspension arms. I'd rather have it closer to 1.5 or 2

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Thanks. I want wider rims but the most I'd go is probably a little bit less than flush. Stock Miata wheels are skinny

 

[turbobrick]

Thanks. I want wider rims but the most I'd go is probably a little bit less than flush. Stock Miata wheels are skinny

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Yeah, going a little bigger from stock shouldn't be hard. With a miata, it should be easy to get an idea because you can just google search "miata wheel fitment thread" and probably find hundreds of pics and setups