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WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,745
Canada
OP is right.

The driveby fanboyism and avatar shaming is truly embarassing in this thread. Like you don't have to even like Daenarys to see all of the shit writing this show has had a for a long time, especially this season. So going with the "lol angry Dany fan" angle is stupid as fuck.
 

Lifejumper

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,321
Give it to Phoebe Waller-Bridge instead, not only has she done the excellent Killing Eve & Fleabag, working on the upcoming Bond but she has already been in the world of Star Wars as an Actress in Solo.

I'm sure they could hold off until she is done on Bond.

Somewhere in the Trilogy she can give roles to Sandrah Oh & Jodie Comer, they don't even have to be in the same film together but even if they are it would be great.
Yesss!!! I love killing eve.
 
Oct 27, 2017
385
Tn, USA
You guys gotta realize what DnD (and I dislike most of their narrative choices as much as anyone) are doing. They are showrunning, SUCCESSFULLY, one of the most, if not THE MOST, ambitious, expensive, and popular show OF ALL TIME. HBO cares about A. are they doing it on time (YES), B on budget (yes?), C. getting subscribers and word of mouth (ABSOLUTELY YES). The actual quality of the show is somewhat secondary to how well the show makes money for HBO. GOT has SO MANY VIEWERS that HBO doesn't even know how to charge them all. They have almost no ability to properly merchandize the show and are leaving millions of dollars on the floor, yet are still cleaning house. DnD did this for them. Those guys got the actors, kept the actors, drove the production, all of it. They are the SHOWRUNNERS. The fact that this show is anywhere near as good as it is instead of collapsing into a dumpster fire of bloated budgets and unwatchable nonsense is to their credit, as well as the fantastic team they helped assemble. They are in no way "failing upwards" after this, this is a doctorate level course in showrunning and probably won't be matched for decades.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,362
Screenshot_20190513-230942_Imgur.jpg
 

apocat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,061
You guys gotta realize what DnD (and I dislike most of their narrative choices as much as anyone) are doing. They are showrunning, SUCCESSFULLY, one of the most, if not THE MOST, ambitious, expensive, and popular show OF ALL TIME. HBO cares about A. are they doing it on time (YES), B on budget (yes?), C. getting subscribers and word of mouth (ABSOLUTELY YES). The actual quality of the show is somewhat secondary to how well the show makes money for HBO. GOT has SO MANY VIEWERS that HBO doesn't even know how to charge them all. They have almost no ability to properly merchandize the show and are leaving millions of dollars on the floor, yet are still cleaning house. DnD did this for them. Those guys got the actors, kept the actors, drove the production, all of it. They are the SHOWRUNNERS. The fact that this show is anywhere near as good as it is instead of collapsing into a dumpster fire of bloated budgets and unwatchable nonsense is to their credit, as well as the fantastic team they helped assemble. They are in no way "failing upwards" after this, this is a doctorate level course in showrunning and probably won't be matched for decades.

Except they're not just showrunners. They're the writers too. Who cares how well the show is run when the writing is abysmal? If I run a hospital perfectly in every way except that my patients don't get well, my administrative prowess is worth nothing.
 

MadScientist

Member
Oct 27, 2017
918
You guys gotta realize what DnD (and I dislike most of their narrative choices as much as anyone) are doing. They are showrunning, SUCCESSFULLY, one of the most, if not THE MOST, ambitious, expensive, and popular show OF ALL TIME. HBO cares about A. are they doing it on time (YES), B on budget (yes?), C. getting subscribers and word of mouth (ABSOLUTELY YES). The actual quality of the show is somewhat secondary to how well the show makes money for HBO. GOT has SO MANY VIEWERS that HBO doesn't even know how to charge them all. They have almost no ability to properly merchandize the show and are leaving millions of dollars on the floor, yet are still cleaning house. DnD did this for them. Those guys got the actors, kept the actors, drove the production, all of it. They are the SHOWRUNNERS. The fact that this show is anywhere near as good as it is instead of collapsing into a dumpster fire of bloated budgets and unwatchable nonsense is to their credit, as well as the fantastic team they helped assemble. They are in no way "failing upwards" after this, this is a doctorate level course in showrunning and probably won't be matched for decades.

Exactly! I feel like most of ERA (and internet) are pissed at how GoT is ending (I'm actually fine with story so far except it being a little rushed). However, I have a feeling the majority of people are actually still quite enjoying GoT. I'm sure HBO ratings are through the roof. If new Stars Wars movies have similar success I'm sure Disney will be quite pleased!
 
Oct 27, 2017
385
Tn, USA
Except they're not just showrunners. They're the writers too. Who cares how well the show is run when the writing is abysmal? If I run a hospital perfectly in every way except that my patients don't get well, my administrative prowess is worth nothing.


By whose metric is the writing not good? Folks are still tuning in, MASSIVELY. Shows don't go 8 years with hundreds of millions of viewers with crap writing. I don't like many of their choices but can still appreciate the scale of what they pulled off and why folks are comfortable giving them control of hundred of millions of dollars.
 

apocat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,061
By whose metric is the writing not good? Folks are still tuning in, MASSIVELY. Shows don't go 8 years with hundreds of millions of viewers with crap writing. I don't like many of their choices but can still appreciate the scale of what they pulled off and why folks are comfortable giving them control of hundred of millions of dollars.

People watching is hardly a good measure of the quality of the writing. They were great when they were adapting a masterfully written series of novel, but without that narrative framework their writing flounders. I agree that the production quality is stellar, and props for that. It still doesn't matter if the story you're telling isn't working.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
Other than Rey and Jyn, both white women being leads, the Disney Star Wars films have been as progressive as any other production that places people of color in non important roles surrounding the important white characters.

You can't claim genuine diversity points off characters like Finn, L3, Enfy's Nest, Thandie Newton's "character" and the crew of Asian guys that died in Rouge One when even the little force user in TLJ was a brown haired white kid.

RJ and KK both have a poor track record for characters of color in quality and quantity, they won't help D&D not be trash.
I know we've had this conversation about Finn before, and I agree with the fact that the white leads still greatly overshadow the minority leads. It's a problem, but inclusion across the board has been a massive step up from the original SW films, and we see minorities in just about every single position (ie resistance and FO personnel, extras, etc). Just look at the end of TFA at the entire cast to see that diversity, and that still is a significant improvement, especially when you look at a franchise that has been historically almost completely white. But again, so much potential is squandered when the PoC you do include take a backseat to the story being told.

Of course, I'm not arguing that KK/RJ are the bastions of all progressive movements or that they're shining examples of wokeness; they're clearly not and have a long way to go.

Which is why I've been arguing for them to hire some fucking women/PoC in more significant roles in the company (ie showrunners/writers/directors). Because the less we see from white men in this regard, the more we'll see significant roles for minorities, stories that are shaped around those roles, not the other way around. Mandalorian is supposed to have a significant amount of women and PoC writing/directing, as far as I'm aware, so it seems like KK might finally be doing the right thing.

I didn't like that ending shot with broom boy and that was definitely one of the reasons.

Although KK/RJ have room to improve on that front, they're a far cry from the way D&D write and they'll definitely be kept in check in regard to the way they wrote GoT on HBO. But part of that is hiring women/PoC to push back against their BS if they do start heading down some of those paths again.
 

Mib

Member
Nov 16, 2017
654
Let me make sure I understand this right because it has been a long day. You are implying,, well not implying straight up saying that ResetEra is somehow against Transgender LGBT and minorities .
It has pretty massive blind spots. A lot of the progressive talk comes in the form of angry first page posts that don't last or say anything other than "fuck x."

I remember we've had a couple of thread attempts to discuss discrimination and stereotypes surrounding South-East Asians, created by South-East Asians, and they all end up being 90% offhand dismissals that such a thing even exists.
This forum is as bad as the old one.
Back in the day? Yeah, not much different.

Now? Not even close, that place went to shit. It's like an inverse era where everyone is soft-alt right with a handful of actual progressives peaking their heads out.
 

Nisaba

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,942
Canada
Everyone should read the examples listed in the OP before making assumptions in this thread. D&D are terrible and it really bothers me that they were given the opportunity to handle Star Wars when that honor could have gone to a diverse writer more deserving. :/ Star Wars has always been made with white men at the helm, pretty disappointing and it's a reason I lost interest in how Disney has chosen to handle the property as a whole.
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,326
The entire L3 thing was pretty mean spirited. Like, a character that was one big joke on activism and wokeness produced, written and directed exclusively by rich old white people. Expecting better from Lucasfilm at this point probably is silly.


and hiring them to make their own Star Wars series is a big fuck you to black folks who already feel very little love from Star Wars as a franchise


Other than Rey and Jyn, both white women being leads, the Disney Star Wars films have been as progressive as any other production that places people of color in non important roles surrounding the important white characters.

You can't claim genuine diversity points off characters like Finn, L3, Enfy's Nest, Thandie Newton's "character" and the crew of Asian guys that died in Rouge One when even the little force user in TLJ was a brown haired white kid.

RJ and KK both have a poor track record for characters of color in quality and quantity, they won't help D&D not be trash.

Amen. I feel like there is two discussions going on, the one in the OP and posts here...then others with haute takes on the "reactionary GoT takes." KK/LF have put the future of mainline SW films in the hands of the dudes who still want to make "Confederate" and another who has never written, cast, or directed a minority led work. After the ST mess of how they are working minority characters, I think the message is pretty clear on how they want the mainline films to look.

Although KK/RJ have room to improve on that front, they're a far cry from the way D&D write and they'll definitely be kept in check in regard to the way they wrote GoT on HBO. But part of that is hiring women/PoC to push back against their BS if they do start heading down some of those paths again.

I don't too much distinction running Finn through every bad "runaway slave" trope, and what D&D have done in GoT as too far from eachother. How will they be kept in check when the ultimately are in charge of the creative process of these films?
 

Speedlynx

Member
Nov 22, 2017
827
Exactly! I feel like most of ERA (and internet) are pissed at how GoT is ending (I'm actually fine with story so far except it being a little rushed). However, I have a feeling the majority of people are actually still quite enjoying GoT. I'm sure HBO ratings are through the roof. If new Stars Wars movies have similar success I'm sure Disney will be quite pleased!
People are watching to see the finale. This show has been what a decade long? The ending could be a dumpster fire and everyone would still watch.
 

flare

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,306
Oh man I missed this thread yesterday. Super nice OP and a great detailed post by Disclaimer too. There's been some increasingly problematic stuff in the series as D&D moved away from the source material, but they've always had some questionable shit. That moment with Jaime and Cersei in the Sept and their treatment of Loras standing out.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
I don't too much distinction running Finn through every bad "runaway slave" trope, and what D&D have done in GoT as too far from eachother. How will they be kept in check when the ultimately are in charge of the creative process of these films?
Because the contexts are completely different between how KK runs things and now HBO runs things. KK will fire your ass if you're not meeting basic standards.
 

Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,218
The point here isn't necessarily that D&D are bigots, it's that regardless of their personal beliefs, they're clearly massively and harmfully ignorant. As I said in the episode thread:

It's (probably ignorantly and unwittingly) misogynistic writing, just like the show's treatment of PoC has been (probably unwittingly) racist, and the show's caricaturing of Renly and Loras as walking stereotypes was (probably unwittingly) ignorant and homophobic.

Point being: D&D are fucking dudebro morons who have no self-awareness in anything they write, and the homogeneity of the show's writers/directors couldn't be more plain. There are virtually no other voices around their table than straight white yes men.



Here's what I thought about the Brienne scenes:
I disagree that the show is overall harmful to progressive efforts. I disagree that they're idiots who dont think or care about the impact of their work. I agree that representation in the writer's room is important. I agree that they can do better, and i hope they do in the future.

Brienne had a time of happiness with jamie, and implications of a happy future. Jamie decided he didnt deserve that future, and that he should be there for the one who had no future. She cried for him, because she loved him and wanted better for him, and because she knew he was pushing her away to keep her from going down with him, and for herself, because she wanted him to stay. Its a tragic story. Its feel-bad. Its not what Brienne deserves, and it is not framed as what she deserves. It is acknowledged as intensely traumatic. Brienne is not made to seem weak or disgusting or foolish, and this is a logical endpoint for their relationship. Them having sex didnt come out of nowhere and isnt the sole reason this turn upsets her.
 

Anton Sugar

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,946
Big fucking lol at "shows with bad writing don't last long!"

Like, you remember the monumental first 4-5 years of The Walking Dead, right?
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
I know this has been beaten to death, but earlier i was thinking that D&D really removed almost any trace of POC from the show, when it comes to secondary characters. Strong Belwas, Allaras, Moqorro, Alayaya, Chataya, pretty much everyone at Mereen. The Bloody Mummers. Areo Hotah has like 2 lines of dialogue. And i'm sure i'm forgetting a lot more.