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I am a lifelong Star Wars superfan and I refuse to watch the upcoming films from David Benioff and D. B. Weiss

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Fubar

Fubar

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Oct 25, 2017
2,723
Kinsei said:
A problem is that even when adapting the book material they still managed to insert their own racism, sexism, and homophobia.
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100% agreed but I am optimistically thinking that LucasFilm wont allow them to do that to Star wars.

Trying to look on the bright side here. Hopefully they dont fuck this up.
 
Salarians

Salarians

Knights of Favonius World Tour '21
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Oct 25, 2017
22,723
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Disclaimer said:
Completely agreed, BDS. It's disheartening — to say the least — that Kathleen Kennedy's LucasFilms and Disney, despite an ostensible commitment to diversity, have hired yet more straight white male writer-directors for Star Wars films, which have never had anything else. To make matters much worse, as you say, D&D have a longstanding history of being extraordinarily ignorant, writing material that's misogynistic, racist, and homophobic (probably because Game of Thrones has a similar dearth of minority voices among its almost entirely white male writers and directors).

It's also telling that so many posts in here are people who refuse to engage or even read the OP, blanketly dismissing any concerns. Era is far from as progressive as some would suggest. People can't stand for those uppity women, PoC, or queer folks being critical of their television.

Let's list some things off the top of my head:

Homophobia:
  • Inserting violent homophobia into Faith of the Seven where there is none on the books. In fact, Westerosi culture as a whole isn't particularly homophobic, except insofar as feudal primogeniture demands noble sons marry noble daughters. (Actual homosexual relationships are fine and accepted!)
  • Omitting most LGBT+ book characters, many of whom were meaningful or easy to include.
    • Not only were most homosexual men in the books as martially capable as their heterosexual counterparts, whether masculine or feminine, but Jon's squire Satin serves as a welcome example of Jon being indiscriminate (and, if you want to read into it, perhaps not heterosexual himself).
  • Turning the only included homosexual book characters — Renly and Loras — into one-dimensional stereotypical caricatures. In the books, they're both quite three-dimensional, in many ways ideals of Westerosi martialism and masculinity, and also one of the healthiest couples in the novels.
    • To further expand on that: Renly is a vaunted tournament participant, who looks identical to Robert in his youth, who was described as "muscled like a maiden's fancy."
      • In the show, he's a gay stereotype who's... afraid of blood. One of their introductory scenes is literally them shaving each other's bodies.
    • Loras in the books, meanwhile, is consistently compared to a youthful Jaime Lannister. He's one of the most talented swordsmen in the realm, with a rash temper. When Renly dies, he joins the Kingsguard — a celibate order — because "when the sun has set, no mere candle can replace it."
      • In the show, he's even more effete and effeminate than Renly. We almost never see him with a sword in-hand. He doesn't join the Kingsguard after Renly's death, and in fact starts whoring around immediately after. (Because gay people are promiscuous! Duh!) He discusses wedding planning with Sansa, lol.
Racism:
  • Daenerys' infamous white savior crowd surfing on a crowd of 100% people of color.
    • In the books, slavery is more akin to the Roman variety, irrespective of skin color.
  • Going into none of the depth of the Meereenese politics.
  • Missandei's Shock Value death. Not only did only her being captured make no sense, but they had her — an ex-slave — symbolically put back in chains for her execution.
    • Relatedly, I can't wait to see how these chucklefucks handle Confedereate. That they want to tackle a scenario of "What If American Slavery Still Existed?" says a lot about them.
  • Tyrion inexplicably assuming the Unsullied soldiers didn't speak Common last night. When he's been around them for years now.
  • Turning the Sand Snakes into stereotypical exotic caricatures, when they were each racially diverse in the books, representative of Oberyn's equal opportunity sexual relations. (By the way, Book!Oberyn is bisexual too, but that was also not included — in fact, in the show he assumes Varys is gay based on... I guess, stereotypes!)
  • Omitting various characters of color from the books.
    • Whitewashing some of their roles, such as turning Chataya and Alayaya into... Ros.
Misogyny:
  • Innumerable instances of gratuitous rape.
    • Including various scenes where the women being raped have their faces off-screen, removing their humanity.
  • Innumerable instances of dehumanizing sexposition aimed to titillate male audience members using Male Gaze, at the expense of female audience members.
  • The idea that "powerful women" are toxically masculinized violent women, or otherwise cynical ice queens. By extension, several female characters were more-or-less ruined, turned into opposites of their book counterparts:
    • Brienne, the soft-hearted, deeply empathetic, and chivalrous young woman was turned into someone who frequently bullied Podrick, and demonstrated disdain for femininity. In the books, she isn't disdainful of femininity at all — she's equal parts Lady of Tarth and a True Knight.
    • Sansa's strength in the books is not only her intelligence, but her resolute commitment to kindness and goodness in the face of cynicism. "If I am ever queen, I will make them love me." Instead of "learning from Cersei" (gross), Book!Sansa is an indictment of Cersei's internalized misogyny — a demonstration that Cersei is wrong, that kindness isn't stupid, that it wins.
    • Arya in the books envies Sansa's femininity, she doesn't condemn or mock it. She never calls girls or feminine pursuits "weak" or "stupid" as she does in the show. (She calls Sansa stupid in a bout of sisterly rivalry, but that's very different.) Let's look at a quote from the books:
      • "The Lannisters are proud," Jon observed. "You'd think the royal sigil would be sufficient, but no. He makes his mother's House equal in honor to the king's."

        "The woman is important too!" Arya protested.
  • The idea that women in proximity must behave bitchily toward one another. Last season it was Sansa and Arya catfighting, this season it's been Sansa and Daenerys.
  • The idea this season that Emotional Women must be rationalized/condescended to by Reasonable (read: stupid) Men.
    • See: the double standard applied to Daenerys and Jon Snow.
      • Show!Daenerys has never actually demonstrated much propensity for madness (let's forget that the actual Mad King's descent into insanity took many years with sometimes justified paranoia). She has years of actual ruling experience. Yet, characters like Varys and Tyrion warp their prior characterization (remember Varys' "Fire and Blood" declaration to Olenna?) to insist she's crazy — when her last action was to put aside her southerly war and go North to save the realm.
      • Show!Jon, meanwhile, has demonstrated nothing but stupidity lately (don't get me started on the show's thesis that Good/Honor = Stupid — complete opposite of the books), yet Varys immediately decides he's a better ruler than Daenerys, literally because he has a penis.
    • See: Tyrion inexplicably appealing to Cersei's motherly emotions when we — and Tyrion — have seen ad nauseam by now that Cersei is insane and consumed by power.
  • After having the Hound make a gross comment to Sansa referring to her rape as being "broken in," the show has Sansa literally say she wouldn't be where she is now without her abuses/abusers.
    • For the people in the back: RAPE AND ABUSE ARE NOT EMPOWERING. ABUSERS DO NOT GET CREDIT FOR INSTILLING STRENGTH IN THEIR VICTIMS. SANSA DID NOT GLEAN STRENGTH OR POLITICAL CANNINESS FROM HER ABUSES — SHE ALREADY HAD THEM.
And this is just a cursory write-up. I'm undoubtedly missing countless examples of these showrunners' ignorant malfeasance.
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thank you
 
Neece

Neece

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Oct 27, 2017
9,196
Disclaimer said:
  • Turning the Sand Snakes into stereotypical exotic caricatures, when they were each racially diverse in the books, representative of Oberyn's equal opportunity sexual relations. (By the way, Book!Oberyn is bisexual too, but that was also not included — in fact, in the show he assumes Varys is gay based on... I guess, stereotypes!)
  • Omitting various characters of color from the books.
    • Whitewashing some of their roles, such as turning Chataya and Alayaya into... Ros.
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Awesome post overall. Just on these points, I wanted to point out that Oberyn is bisexual in the show too. And the backlash would have been insane if Joffrey violently murdered a black prostitute. Hell there would have been backlash if the only black people in King's Landing were prostitutes, so I could see why they would be wary of casting Chataya and Alayaya. But the solution to the problem was not to just turn them into Ros, you're right. Could have simply added more black characters at court such as the summer islander Prince Jalabhar Xho, in addition to Chataya and Alayaya...and not included a scene where Joffrey murders a prostitute. It wasn't needed to show that he is sadistic.
 
Nacho

Nacho

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Oct 25, 2017
8,108
NYC
BDS said:
Nuking an entire city of innocent people for literally no reason is one hell of an "antihero" action.
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Some people just like seeing things blow up and fights in a large scale. They enjoy it still and that's fine but it's really funny when they try to defend the writing of the show and have no clue as to what people are complaining about. No one is complaining that Dany went bad, rather that how she got there is entirely unbelievable. There's been many is not most major characters who just overnight undid their seasons of character arcs. And to them the "foreshadowing" of someone being like "hey I think they're a bad person" an episode before they go bad is justification enough.

Like, I get it, on a certain level I think things like Clegane bowl is fun and there's part of me getting enjoyment out of seeing sandor stab the mountain repeatedly in his face. But it's entirely separate from very one dimensional and clunky writing that makes all of the carnal stuff hard to enjoy.
 

Ragnorok64

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
2,955
Man I haven't followed GoT at all but watching the meltdowns these past few weeks after whatever happens on Sunday goes down, from the outside, has been quite something. Podcast(s) will be interesting this week.

With regards Star Wars, it's runny to me that my misgivings and plummeting interest that I suspected when Disney bought it have come to fruition. Whereas Marvel is flying high.
 
Avitus

Avitus

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Oct 25, 2017
12,898
If relatively talented filmmakers have struggled with Star Wars - especially the characters and how they progress - D&D have very little chance at getting it right. They can't do original material.
 
bombermouse

bombermouse

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Oct 25, 2017
2,056
Dany stans going mad as fast as she did.

I get OP points about more representation and I do hope lucasarts does a better job sanitizing their output.
 
Aftermath

Aftermath

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Oct 27, 2017
3,756
Oh the X-men Origins Writer?

Okay I don't know GOT but I know Origins well enough to know bad writing.

Yikes
 
Letters

Letters

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Oct 27, 2017
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Yeah I hope the huge backlash for the murder of GOT gets Star Wars ripped from their hands (and anything else meaningful I could care about).
 
Enterprise1701

Enterprise1701

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Oct 25, 2017
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Two new trilogy's looks like I need to keep up with the news.

tenor.gif
 
Avitus

Avitus

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Oct 25, 2017
12,898
Cyclone said:
What about GoT season 5 and 6?

Also, movies are a bit different. Less to write, not as many concurrent storylines.
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They can do spectacle. Nobody is denying that. But they struggle incredibly hard with meaningful character development, logic, and consistency. They also suck at minding lore but I assume Lucasfilm will keep them in check on that.
 
Disclaimer

Disclaimer

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Oct 25, 2017
11,440
Neece said:
Awesome post overall. Just on these points, I wanted to point out that Oberyn is bisexual in the show too. And the backlash would have been insane if Joffrey violently murdered a black prostitute. Hell there would have been backlash if the only black people in King's Landing were prostitutes, so I could see why they would be wary of casting Chataya and Alayaya. But the solution to the problem was not to just turn them into Ros, you're right. Could have simply added more black characters at court such as the summer islander Prince Jalabhar Xho, in addition to Chataya and Alayaya...and not included a scene where Joffrey murders a prostitute. It wasn't needed to show that he is sadistic.
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Well, looking back at the scenes, you're right about Oberyn — although I would note that his brief admission of bisexuality is quickly interrupted before anything can take place, in a show with otherwise flagrant nudity and sexposition.

As to Chataya and Alayaya versus Ros: the thing is, they made the choice to include Ros long before Joffrey's murder of her. As you say, they could have as easily still included them, and/or simply not had Joffrey murder a prostitute.
 
KoopaTheCasual

KoopaTheCasual

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Oct 27, 2017
6,731
Super interesting (read: completely unsurprising) that legitimate concerns over writing and representation are not even being addressed by some posters in here, and they only drive by with "lol Dany fans so mad!"

This happens on so many media properties here on Era. Whether it be GoT, Marvel, Star Wars, or DC, whenever there's a thread with tangible examples of bad practices/writing, fans are so quick to thread-shit
 
Double 0

Double 0

Member
Nov 5, 2017
7,429
I definitely don't want a D&D Star Wars.

D&D Warhammer? Or 40k? That fits them.

As for Star Wars, let's get some women directors and writers please. Non-white if possible, but either will do.
 
Stinkles

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
The first seasons of GoT were extremely well regarded. Seems like adapting existing material is their strong suit. I'm still enjoying the show but the rush to tie up loose ends is cartoonish at this point.


Last night was an extreme example although
Clegane bowl and his parting with Arya
was a perfect mix of wanted, expected, slightly subverted.

Problem is that almost all my favorite characters have now had their arcs truncated in a mix of satisfying and unsatisfying ways. And the ones who still have journeys to make are not ones I care about or have been undermined by series writing for this season.

I'm OK with
Daenerys ending up in this position and going crazy -- because it's telegraphed in the books and show but the cadence and arc have been trash and her choice of victims is confounding and Varys got almost Poochied for no gain
but as a matter of logic it's a perfectly reasonable outcome, horribly rushed and executed.

also I may have looked away but did we ever see Euron actually definitely die? I know he's gut-stabbed but Jaime had a burning building close him out. Even though he seemed to have gotten over three mortal stab wounds pretty easily.
 
Dekuman

Dekuman

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Oct 27, 2017
19,026
A star wars political drama would be interesting

It's.what Lucas tried and failed to pull off in the prequels. Mcdairmid modeled so much of his performance after Ian Richardson's Francis Urquhart in OG British House of Cards. And iirc that's where Lucas got his inspiration from for Senator Palpatine for the PT. Though the character was originally supposed to be Richard Nixon when we was first creatdd in the 1970s
 
Neece

Neece

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Oct 27, 2017
9,196
Dekuman said:
A star wars political drama would be interesting

It's.what Lucas tried and failed to pull off in the prequels. Mcdairmid modeled so much of his performsnce after Ian Richardson's Frank Urquhart in OG British House of Cards
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Sure. These guys just aren't the ones to pull it off. Their political drama (original writing, not adapted from GRRM) is terrible.
 
Ziltoidia 9

Ziltoidia 9

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Oct 25, 2017
6,141
It's all a ploy. They made GoT bad to subvert our expectations because the Star Wars movie will be amazing.
 
Beef Supreme

Beef Supreme

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Oct 25, 2017
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You will watch not only those 3 movies, but also the GOT finale this weekend. I will do the same because we are both glutens for punishment.
 

Deleted member 46958

User requested account closure
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it's just fiction. Jesus.

Star Wars fans are the worst btw. Imo.

The series has the thematic depth of a kiddie pool. D&D messed up The Mother of Dragons, but honestly Thrones is still written better than any SW property out there.

SW equates to sacred literature since when?
 
Dekuman

Dekuman

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Oct 27, 2017
19,026
Bran-dono said:
it's just fiction. Jesus.

Star Wars fans are the worst btw. Imo.

The series has the thematic depth of a kiddie pool. D&D messed up The Mother of Dragons, but honestly Thrones is still written better than any SW property out there.

SW equates to sacred literature since when?
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I think the way the fandom treats it the OT is the sacred literature. The rest plays out like various religious schisms
 

SpokkX

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,495
Nerd-rage is just so.. pointless? Is this really worth anyone elses time?

You dislike series/creator very much?

Ok then - dont watch but please dont whine either
 
Seesaw15

Seesaw15

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Oct 27, 2017
8,809
But SW's has never been well written. D&D's ability to write basic comic relief characters puts them ahead of 90% of Star Wars films.
 
Fuchsia

Fuchsia

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Oct 28, 2017
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As someone who has never seen GoT, I definitely learned a lot from this thread about why I should keep staying away from it.
 
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