I didn't feel any sympathy for Theon (GoT spoilers)

John Doe · Jan 21, 2020

So one of the narrative reasons for Theon being tortured is to make us, the reader or viewer pause and regret the feelings of bloodlust that we may have had towards Theon for his betrayal of the Starks. I'm sure a lot of people wanted him dead after that.

In the books the next time we see Theon, he has been transformed into Reek and details the torture he went through.

I couldn't care less.

The torture he went through, doesn't negate what he did and one line from the books always stuck with me, "It was the women who screamed the loudest". Despite what Theon went through, the women of winterfell are going through far worse, solely because of his decisions.

I'm not saying I'm glad he was tortured or that he deserved it, a quick execution would have been fine or the Night's Watch. I just ......... idk

Anyone else felt the same?

Kain · Jan 21, 2020

The point of Theon's arc, imo, is that even the worst of the worst can have a chance at redemption (like Jaime actually). That doesn't mean he'll eventually get redemption or that he deserves it, but he tries. Jaime has a better chance, I think Theon will fail hard. His adventures with Jeyne don't add up to much all in all.

I was amused at first by Reek and I even had fun with his suffering (it's a fictional character, I can delight at his suffering, right? RIGHT?), but then Theon resurfaces and says "I just wanted to be a Stark". And then I felt bad for him. You can feel bad for bad people too, while judging them by their actions and condemning them, I think.

The Unsent · Jan 21, 2020

He had two children killed and burnt on a stake, I don't feel sorry for him no. His torture I think GRRM used as a plot device to show how the boltons use torture as warfare and used Theon to lure out the grey joy remnants in the north. I don't agree with the idea of his redemption.

ScoobsJoestar · Jan 21, 2020

I felt sympathy not because of the torture but because of his slow realization that he had everything he wanted and he lost it all trying to get something else.

"My real father died at Kings Landing" is what makes me go "yeah he realized that all he lost was for nothing and he hates himself for it." It's a great character arc. It doesn't erase what he did but I don't think I need someone to be redeemed to go "I feel sympathy for them."

El-Suave · Jan 21, 2020

I kind of love that they toyed with a possible big redemption but there were many failures on the way and it's questionable if there was any proper redemption in the end at all, not counting crimes vs. heroics. Saving Sansa probably was his biggest good deed.

Artdayne · Jan 21, 2020

I did. Even as bad as some of the things he did were, I don't like to see any person being tortured.

RestEerie · Jan 21, 2020

_Karooo · Jan 21, 2020

I thought it was hilarious. I wanted him to escape though and enjoyed Bolton getting clobbered. It's just an intellectually lazy thing that means nothing.

Steel · Jan 21, 2020

Theon's kinda an interesting character because there's places where you go back and forth on how you feel about him. He was treated like shit by the Starks, constantly made to know his place while also being put up as a trusted ally. But then also reminded that his family is shit and he's a hostage. And it's not like he didn't try to do right by the Starks for a while. Which leads into the betrayal because he wanted a family that he could actually belong to instead of being second class.

But then there's everything else that makes him a shit human being but part of that shittiness is venting the shittiness that was already dumped on him.

Glasgow Mega-Snake · Jan 21, 2020

ScoobsJoestar said:
I felt sympathy not because of the torture but because of his slow realization that he had everything he wanted and he lost it all trying to get something else.

"My real father died at Kings Landing" is what makes me go "yeah he realized that all he lost was for nothing and he hates himself for it." It's a great character arc. It doesn't erase what he did but I don't think I need someone to be redeemed to go "I feel sympathy for them."

This is where I'm at.

But I'd say it works a lot better in the books where you don't see him for a while and then you realize the cocky asshole you hated has become this broken shell of a human being. The show just went way overboard with the torture porn.

Though in some ways I prefer Theon's story in S2 to the book, they actually showed him conflicted about his decision to abandon the Starks. It's just that the show screwed up Ramsay's introduction and we got that convoluted S3 plot.

But in general this is something GRRM likes to do. We got a few 'villain gets what he deserves' moments like Joffrey's death where he plays it straight, but with Theon, Jaime, or Cersei with the wall of shame it's this question of "You wanted them to get punished. Well now they are, how do you like it? Is this still justice?"

shaneo632 · Jan 21, 2020

Nah I felt sympathy for him, or perhaps more pity than anything, that he became such a shell of a human being.

Wackamole · Jan 21, 2020

I did. As far as i can bring up sympathy for a fictional character of course.
But in that story, i did feel sympathy for him. Nice part for an actor, i think.

John Doe · Jan 21, 2020

Glasgow Mega-Snake said:
But in general this is something GRRM likes to do. We got a few 'villain gets what he deserves' moments like Joffrey's death where he plays it straight, but with Theon, Jaime, or Cersei with the wall of shame it's this question of "You wanted them to get punished. Well now they are, how do you like it? Is this still justice?"

I can agree with this and I honestly think GRRM is making a point about our own justice system. Sure we don't, well, as a general rule we don't torture people or chop off their limbs when they commit crimes anymore but a lot of our punitive measures and the conditions that prisoners are housed in are still out of proportion to the crime that was committed.

Hyun Sai · Jan 21, 2020

Glasgow Mega-Snake said:
But in general this is something GRRM likes to do. We got a few 'villain gets what he deserves' moments like Joffrey's death where he plays it straight, but with Theon, Jaime, or Cersei with the wall of shame it's this question of "You wanted them to get punished. Well now they are, how do you like it? Is this still justice?"

I did not feel this one bit with Cersei, at any point lol.

Glasgow Mega-Snake · Jan 21, 2020

Hyun Sai said:
I did not feel this one bit with Cersei, at any point lol.

I mean, she's still a terrible person, and she will probably only become worse, I can't see a redemption for her. But the walk is still terribly misogynistic and nobody deserves that.

Carl2291 · Jan 21, 2020

I'd just like to say that Alfie Allen did a fantastic job in the TV show. Great performance.

skeezx · Jan 21, 2020

i feel like most character arcs in the show amount to "damn, people sure do change" after going through a bunch of crazy shit. like you're not supposed to take much more from it, though you can.

Hyun Sai · Jan 21, 2020

Glasgow Mega-Snake said:
I mean, she's still a terrible person, and she will probably only become worse, I can't see a redemption for her. But the walk is still terribly misogynistic and nobody deserves that.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Compared to Jaime and Theon, she got off easy, and didn't reflect on herself one bit.

cw_sasuke · Jan 21, 2020

There are people in that universe that did far worse things than Theon or co-signed terrible acts....These charachters are also quite a bit younger in the books so stupid decisions and mistakes are easier forgiven after years of having to pass for it.

The GoT world is incredible messed up and people wouldn't be that offended by Theons actions of they didn't result in the Fall of House Stark.

Brass Body Dave · Jan 21, 2020

John Doe said:
So one of the narrative reasons for Theon being tortured is to make us, the reader or viewer pause and regret the feelings of bloodlust that we may have had towards Theon for his betrayal of the Starks. I'm sure a lot of people wanted him dead after that.

In the books the next time we see Theon, he has been transformed into Reek and details the torture he went through.

I couldn't care less.

The torture he went through, doesn't negate what he did and one line from the books always stuck with me, "It was the women who screamed the loudest". Despite what Theon went through, the women of winterfell are going through far worse, solely because of his decisions.

I'm not saying I'm glad he was tortured or that he deserved it, a quick execution would have been fine or the Night's Watch. I just ......... idk

Anyone else felt the same?

I felt the same. Unforgivable, so who cares what happens to him?

in fact I gave nobody sympy in that show at all. everyone's bad. it's like a medieval sopranos.

The Artisan · Jan 21, 2020

Hyun Sai said:
We'll have to agree to disagree. Compared to Jaime and Theon, she got off easy, and didn't reflect on herself one bit.

Yup, all she could think about was vengeance.

skipgo · Jan 21, 2020

I save all my sympathy for Cersei, she's the best.

BossAttack · Jan 21, 2020

Agreed.

But again, it's not so much sympathy as realizing that everyone can seek redemption no matter how terrible their crimes. To me, Theon will always be a shit heel because of how he was and what he did.

Woetyler · Jan 21, 2020

RestEerie said:

GIF is much worse with still image Ramsay

Sephzilla · Jan 21, 2020

It's supposed to make us see that Theon is slowly realizing he had everything he wanted the entire time. It's also used to set up Ramsay as Super Joffrey HD Turbo

Morrigan · Jan 21, 2020

Theon was a wretched human being who did awful things including murdering children, but despite that, his punishment did not fit his crime. So, that's why you will see people sympathizing with him somewhat. I think it's definitely an interesting story/arc to explore. And yes, there is an attempt at redemption here, but it's not fully clear that he will "succeed" (going only with the books here), which makes it all the more interesting.

And let's face it, we all cheered when Theon jumped off the Winterfell wall with Jeyne... right? If only for poor Jeyne :(

Hyun Sai said:
We'll have to agree to disagree. Compared to Jaime and Theon, she got off easy, and didn't reflect on herself one bit.

The Artisan said:
Yup, all she could think about was vengeance.

I mean, I would feel the same in her place. Cersei is awful, but there was nothing about the Walk of Shame that involved any kind of justice, nor was there anything about it that encouraged repentance or reflection from her. It was misogynistic garbage that shamed her for being a woman, it wasn't remotely justice for her actual crimes.

Kind of like how many awful prison systems do nothing to rehabilitate convicts. Even if you take convicts who are legit terrible people (murderers, rapists etc.), the only good thing about those prison systems is that they remove a dangerous element from society (which the Walk doesn't do), not that they give the prisoners their much needed introspection or whatever.

If anything, it would make things far worse, because now you add a deeper sense of resentment and a stronger desire of bloodlust and vengeance to her character, much like prison hardens those criminals even more.

Marossi · Jan 21, 2020

Alfie Allen did a perfect job in portraying a broken human with nothing but emptiness inside after losing everything he had.

jviggy43 · Jan 21, 2020

For real. I couldn't roll my eyes harder when they tried giving him that emotional send off. Sorry you don't come back from murdering innocent children and fucking over your friends and family like you did.

Poltergust · Jan 21, 2020

Brass Body Dave said:
I felt the same. Unforgivable, so who cares what happens to him?

in fact I gave nobody sympy in that show at all. everyone's bad. it's like a medieval sopranos.

I think that's a bit reductive since there are quite a few characters who are pretty unambiguously good people even in a world as crappy as that, like Sam and Brienne.

Sheepinator · Jan 21, 2020

I felt bad for the Bolton guards who were hunting the escaped prisoner, and Ramsay kills them just to keep that fiction going, before luring him back to the dungeon anyway. I also felt bad for the dogs in the later scene, having to chew through all that leather and buckles and stuff to get to the food.

Lunar Wolf · Jan 21, 2020

Glasgow Mega-Snake said:
This is where I'm at.

But I'd say it works a lot better in the books where you don't see him for a while and then you realize the cocky asshole you hated has become this broken shell of a human being. The show just went way overboard with the torture porn.

Though in some ways I prefer Theon's story in S2 to the book, they actually showed him conflicted about his decision to abandon the Starks. It's just that the show screwed up Ramsay's introduction and we got that convoluted S3 plot.

But in general this is something GRRM likes to do. We got a few 'villain gets what he deserves' moments like Joffrey's death where he plays it straight, but with Theon, Jaime, or Cersei with the wall of shame it's this question of "You wanted them to get punished. Well now they are, how do you like it? Is this still justice?"

Even with Joffrey, GRRM wants you to feel bad for him by emphasizing that he's just a child. He's said as much because he didn't want readers to feel complete catharsis st the death of a 12 year old.

TheMango55 · Jan 21, 2020

skeezx said:
i feel like most character arcs in the show amount to "damn, people sure do change" after going through a bunch of crazy shit. like you're not supposed to take much more from it, though you can.

I prefer that to something like the First Law trilogy by Joe Abercrombie

where the narrative seems to be "damn, nobody actually ever changes"

Yasuke · Jan 21, 2020

Kain said:
You can feel bad for bad people too, while judging them by their actions and condemning them, I think.

I think this is often lost on people.

I don't feel bad about his consequences so much as I regret the circumstances that eventually pushed him down the path he went on. His choices were still his, and he had to pay for them, but I can mourn for the kid he used to be and the man he might've become.

Lunar Wolf said:
Even with Joffrey, GRRM wants you to feel bad for him by emphasizing that he's just a child. He's said as much because he didn't want readers to feel complete catharsis st the death of a 12 year old.

Indeed. Even in the show, my first time watching I cheered at the outset, but as it drug on I found myself revolted and wishing someone would just put him out of his misery.

Deepwater · Jan 21, 2020

I didn't feel bad for Theon, no more than pity. His redemption arc was well constructed, but I personally didn't feel bad for him. He shouldn't have betrayed the Starks

Lunar Wolf · Jan 21, 2020

You can feel sympathy for bad people who commit unforgivable crimes but that doesn't mean you have to. Either is valid.

Although I think GRRM is trying to make a case against retributive justice and a case for restorative justice.

You see the ghost of this even in the show's ending where Tyrion and Jon are kept alive and put in the places where they can do the most good. Tyrion as Hand and Jon as the bridge between the wildlings and Westeros.

Neece · Jan 21, 2020

I feel sympathy for anyone, whether they are criminals or prisoners, being tortured.

davepoobond · Jan 21, 2020

i dont think you're supposed to, but he's one of the few characters who had a very well developed arc

I didn't feel any sympathy for Theon (GoT spoilers)

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