I Do Not Understand Not Having A Child Because Of "Climate Change" And The Like

BebopCola · Nov 5, 2019

Before the UN report last year (I think? Maybe earlier this year - it's been a long fucking year), I felt a little guilty that my two kids would be growing up as the world had to truly grapple with the issue of climate change. I, like every other naive fool, thought there would be more time. Maybe my grandkids would the ones to suffer, but surely they'd be able to finish what their parents started.

But now that we know we are basically in the final stretch before it all starts to fly apart, there is a dull sense of dread pervading everything. Granted, my kids will be late-20s/early-30s when 2050 rolls around and will be basically adults of their own. But I still have a keen feeling of guilt at helping to bring them into this kind of failing world. I know my wife feels the same way, but she does her best to ignore the reports now so as not to just fall into a pit of despair.

I am morbidly curious as to what the global birthrate will be in ten or fifteen years in developed countries, to see if some sort of malaise regarding having children will take hold.

RSTEIN · Nov 5, 2019

arbok26 said:
Sometimes I think I'm not depressed because the last thing I want to do is kill myself, but maybe I am a little depressed. I feel like my self esteem has dropped significantly since like 10 years ago, and its noticeable. It's the first time I'm admitting it.

clinical depression = mood swings, feeling hopeless, low self esteem. You don’t have to have suicidal thoughts.

that’s a brave thing to say even in a group of strangers. You should reach out to someone. Start with your family dr.

UltimusXI · Nov 5, 2019

SG-17 said:
Its not the individual's responsibility.

Every emission by yourself and by your own actions is your own responsibility. It doesn't mean that you should or can cut out any and all emissions though. There's a low end and a high end in the range of emissions per person and you decide for yourself in what part of that range you choose to be.

If I choose to have 5 kids and use 5000 diapers per kid instead of 1 or 2 kids with 5000 diapers per kid, then the difference in diapers alone is already a substantial difference in emission and waste.

pigeon · Nov 5, 2019

UltimusXI said:
Every emission by yourself and by your own actions is your own responsibility. It doesn't mean that you should or can cut out any and all emissions though.

Why not? The argument seems just as good. People should, actually, cut out all emissions.

Lentic · Nov 5, 2019

BebopCola said:
Before the UN report last year (I think? Maybe earlier this year - it's been a long fucking year), I felt a little guilty that my two kids would be growing up as the world had to truly grapple with the issue of climate change. I, like every other naive fool, thought there would be more time. Maybe my grandkids would the ones to suffer, but surely they'd be able to finish what their parents started.

But now that we know we are basically in the final stretch before it all starts to fly apart, there is a dull sense of dread pervading everything. Granted, my kids will be late-20s/early-30s when 2050 rolls around and will be basically adults of their own. But I still have a keen feeling of guilt at helping to bring them into this kind of failing world. I know my wife feels the same way, but she does her best to ignore the reports now so as not to just fall into a pit of despair.

I am morbidly curious as to what the global birthrate will be in ten or fifteen years in developed countries, to see if some sort of malaise regarding having children will take hold.

No one is born into a perfect world and every generation has it's problems, so you shouldn't feel guilty. If your kids grow up to be good people and they contribute any positive change to the world, then they will have been worth it.

spwolf · Nov 5, 2019

DavidDesu said:
Sure, I find my life fulfilling enough I guess. But if I'd never been born I certainly wouldn't know about it. I'm 35 and I think I was born into a time when the future seemed a lot more hopeful. Now we're far more aware of the very real and impending doom (yes doom) that awaits us and future generations. It's far worse than anything my parents could have pictures.

in 1983 when you were conceived, developed nations just came off 2nd oil crisis and large recesion... most people's wages fell in 1983 and in Europe unemployment was on the rise.

So I very much doubt that 2019 is "very much worse" than what your parents had to deal with, consensus of most economic experts is that we are living much better than before. Worldwide, in 1990 2 billion people lived in "extreme poverty" while in 2019 that number is estimated to be around 600k, that is despite population growth.

BebopCola · Nov 5, 2019

Lentic said:
No one is born into a perfect world and every generation has it's problems, so you shouldn't feel guilty. If your kids grow up to be good people and they contribute any positive change to the world, then they will have been worth it.

True, but not every generation is born on the threshold of dystopia.

I just need to make sure my children have good combat and survival skills for when either the Snowpiercer happens, or the Enclave releases the FEV.

spwolf · Nov 5, 2019

Foxashel said:
He isn’t saying it is a bad thing. It is a fine thing. But then to mask that decision with “Because the environment!” is a tad silly. Just say you don’t want kids. No one will care except maybe your parents and aunts/uncles.

I am actually afraid to take my children out in public for fear an anti-child-because-climate-change person is going to murder them. That is how they come across. I give it 3-5 years until they are added to the terrorist list.

are you really afraid to take your kids out in the public? Where do you live? I guess those extremes have not reached Eastern Europe yet.

Only problem with having kids that I see is when you cant take care of them - not only financially, that is a smaller part, but as a parent you have to be there to guide them through life and raise them as a decent human being.

Having "environment" as a reason for not having kids is as good as any other because outcome is still the same - you should be ready for it and be prepared for it in any case.

GoemonTheNinja · Nov 5, 2019

I must admit I never wanted children or had any intention of having any. And climate change wasn't a factor in the decision, I just don't want them. But it makes for the best excuse now when people can't stop asking me if I want children.

It's a good excuse too because it's a good reason, and it's now legitimately one of my reasons.

UltimusXI · Nov 5, 2019

pigeon said:
Why not? The argument seems just as good. People should, actually, cut out all emissions.

Well, unless all trucks providing super markets are already electric in your area (and the farming equipment is electric as well) or you have the luxury of having a piece of land to grow everything yourself (which would be quite ineffective if everyone did this), then it's just not possible currently. Maybe 'should' is a wrong word, but it's not practical currently. As long as you buy some things from a third party, then you're causing emissions indirectly.

pigeon · Nov 5, 2019

BebopCola said:
True, but not every generation is born on the threshold of dystopia.

If you’re in your thirties or forties today you were conceived when there was a widespread belief we were inches from global thermonuclear nuclear war, killing millions much faster than climate change.

Famassu · Nov 5, 2019

Kthulhu said:
It's more of people blaming themselves/others for climate change instead of governments and corporations.

Governments work for us and we consume the services & products of corporations. This trying to shift all blame from individuals to evil corporations is just silly. If there was no demand, there would be no/less need for those corporations. If people cared enough, more would vote for more environmentally conscious governments who actually did something instead of empty words of hoping for action to be taken or actively working against any actions taken.

Foxashel said:
He isn’t saying it is a bad thing. It is a fine thing. But then to mask that decision with “Because the environment!” is a tad silly. Just say you don’t want kids. No one will care except maybe your parents and aunts/uncles.

I am actually afraid to take my children out in public for fear an anti-child-because-climate-change person is going to murder them. That is how they come across. I give it 3-5 years until they are added to the terrorist list.

Foxashel said:
They are as pleasant as anti-vaxxers, flat-earthers, and Sandy Hook deniers.

Well you certainly have the hottest, dumbest takes in this thread. Lol at being afraid to take your children out because some people don't want children. And comparing environmentally conscious people to anti-vaxxers and flat-earthers. Trolls gonna troll, I guess.

pigeon · Nov 5, 2019

UltimusXI said:
Well, unless all trucks providing super markets are already electric in your area or you have the luxury of having a piece of land to grow everything yourself (which would be quite ineffective if everyone did this), then it's just not possible currently. Maybe 'should' is a wrong word, but it's not practical currently. As long as you buy some things from a third party, then you're causing emissions indirectly.

I mean, even the idea of buying food from a supermarket seems like climate denialism by this argument, yes.Why not go into the woods and live off the land by yourself? Any other choice is deliberate pollution.

RedSonja · Nov 5, 2019

Good old Marshall (2015) and his book:

Climate change is a future problem. But it is also a past problem and a present problem. It is better thought of as a developing process of long-term deterioration, called, by some psychologists, a “creeping problem.” The lack of a definite beginning, end, or deadline requires that we create our own timeline. Not surprisingly, we do so in ways that remove the compulsion to act. We allow just enough history to make it seem familiar but not enough to create a responsibility for our past emissions. We make it just current enough to accept that we need to do something about it but put it just too far in the future to require immediate action”

The stuff in this thread really should be index on WoS or some shit - perceptions and pesonal challenges to align with the sociological and psychologiocal reporting. We need a resilience training thread. It's just some numbers to get our heads around: https://www.nature.com/immersive/d41586-019-02711-4/index.html Climate scientists are doin' it, so why not?

Kthulhu · Nov 5, 2019

Famassu said:
Governments work for us and we consume the services & products of corporations. This trying to shift all blame from individuals to evil corporations is just silly. If there was no demand, there would be no/less need for those corporations. If people cared enough, more would vote for more environmentally conscious governments who actually did something instead of empty words of hoping for action to be taken or actively working against any actions taken

How do you stop demand for things like food and water? People have been voting for environmental reasons for decades in the US but we have corporate lobbying to thank for that stalling.

The consumer has little power. Most of it belongs to companies and governments. Companies have been trying to shift the responsibility to consumers for years. Why stop burning coal when you can convince people to buy a Tesla and use paper straws?

Famassu · Nov 5, 2019

pigeon said:
If you’re in your thirties or forties today you were conceived when there was a widespread belief we were inches from global thermonuclear nuclear war, killing millions much faster than climate change.

Nuclear war is easier to prevent than an environmental disaster of this scope and severity. You can't just not press a button to prevent climate change. Many effects of climate change can't be reversed or lived with, once they happen (in a sensible timespan or within any level of realistic resource usage), especially when the effects are so widespread and solving even a single issue is a massive undertaking, let alone a hundred more or less similar scale issues.

banshee150 · Nov 5, 2019

Life is futile and pointless too. By having kids you introduce a need that need not exist (ask the martians if they are missing out on life) as well aa death, wage-slavery in addition to the climate change footprint and the rapidly accelerating extinction of the species.

People use kids as means to end (i.e. themselves) so its really impossible for me to justify

pigeon · Nov 5, 2019

Famassu said:
Nuclear war is easier to prevent than an environmental disaster of this scope and severity. You can't just not press a button to prevent climate change.

Only two guys had the button to not press! Everybody else in the world had literally no power to act. It was like waiting to see if it would rain tomorrow except the rain would be superheated plasma.

UltimusXI · Nov 5, 2019

pigeon said:
I mean, even the idea of buying food from a supermarket seems like climate denialism by this argument, yes.Why not go into the woods and live off the land by yourself? Any other choice is deliberate pollution.

That's why I try to keep it realistic: there will always be emissions in the current world and there may always be emissions period (or at least in the next 100 years). Replacing big container ships with clean ones seems quite far away for example.

pigeon · Nov 5, 2019

banshee150 said:
Life is futile and pointless too. By having kids you introduce a need that need not exist (ask the martians if they are missing out on life) as well aa death, wage-slavery in addition to the climate change footprint and the rapidly accelerating extinction of the species.

Honestly a bummer to read so many sad posts in this thread. Actually life is good and worth living, and if you genuinely feel otherwise, please talk with a professional about it, because you don’t have to feel that way.

Lentic · Nov 5, 2019

banshee150 said:
Life is futile and pointless too. By having kids you introduce a need that need not exist (ask the martians if they are missing out on life) as well aa death, wage-slavery in addition to the climate change footprint and the rapidly accelerating extinction of the species.

People use kids as means to end (i.e. themselves) so its really impossible for me to justify

This is really just a form of suicidal thinking and I think you should get some help.

Vincent Grayson · Nov 5, 2019

Shugga said:
Cool
That's not happening though

I mean, it is on some level. Unless the trend has changed in recent years, people tend to have fewer children the more education they have. The people to play major roles in fixing the shit going down with humanity and Earth and all that...they're more likely to be born to educated parents than not, because that's the nature of the system we have. If anything, we should be encouraging more educated parents to have more children, and (of course) creating a better education system geared towards the goals of the modern world.

pigeon · Nov 5, 2019

UltimusXI said:
That's why I try to keep it realistic: there will always be emissions in the current world and there may always be emissions period (or at least in the next 100 years). Replacing big container ships with clean ones seems quite far away for example.

Right. My point is that your version of “keeping it realistic” is to shore up the unreasonable nature of your argument by drawing an arbitrary line between things you think are reasonable to do and thus should not count as emissions, like going to the supermarket, and things you think are not reasonable to do and thus should count as emissions, like having children. But this line has no basis. It just exists to protect you from having to stop going to the supermarket.

CrankyJay · Nov 5, 2019

OP, just do you as long as you aren't hurting anyone else, and no, don't let anyone tell you that having children is hurting anyone else.

Klyka · Nov 5, 2019

Why are people so obsessed with why others want or don't want children?
Just decide for yourself and then do it or don't.
My GF and I won't have children, this isn't even a thing we think about and we don't think about others having children or not at all.
Why does this even factor into people's lives?

Dixie Flatline · Nov 5, 2019

I'm always about "their body, their decision." If a girl or couple decides they want to have a baby, then they fully have that right and they shouldn't be pestered for it.

Vincent Alexander · Nov 5, 2019

pigeon said:
Vincent Alexander

God dammit.....I just had breakfast so my shoes will have to wait.

UltimusXI · Nov 5, 2019

pigeon said:
Right. My point is that your version of “keeping it realistic” is to shore up the unreasonable nature of your argument by drawing an arbitrary line between things you think are reasonable to do and thus should not count as emissions, like going to the supermarket, and things you think are not reasonable to do and thus should count as emissions, like having children. But this line has no basis. It just exists to protect you from having to stop going to the supermarket.

Where did I say that some things don't count as emissions? I said there's a range of how many emissions one can choose to produce. Everyone should decide for themselves what is reasonable to do or not do. However, people should not say they don't have any choice or it's not their responsibility. Every emission, including me going to the supermarket, is my responsibility.

Hoo-doo · Nov 5, 2019

banshee150 said:
Life is futile and pointless too. By having kids you introduce a need that need not exist (ask the martians if they are missing out on life) as well aa death, wage-slavery in addition to the climate change footprint and the rapidly accelerating extinction of the species.

People use kids as means to end (i.e. themselves) so its really impossible for me to justify

God, this is the most Era post i'll read all week. Seek help.

I often wonder what the fuck i'm doing on this forum because every thread asking 'how are you' or 'how is your year going' is met with hundreds/thousands of replies akin to 'i am depressed/suicidal', 'I hate my life', or 'this is the worst year of my life' and most arguments coming from nihilistic/defeatist viewpoints.

This is genuinely a den of depression. I feel like the odd one out actually having a happy life with lots of things to live for.

Failburger · Nov 5, 2019

And the argument is to have less children. My grandparents had 18 kids, my parents had 5 kids between multiple partners. My causing all have 2-3 kids. My step siblings all have 2-3 kids.

Like, damn, maybe just have 1 child?

banshee150 · Nov 5, 2019

pigeon said:
Honestly a bummer to read so many sad posts in this thread. Actually life is good and worth living, and if you genuinely feel otherwise, please talk with a professional about it, because you don’t have to feel that way.

Lentic said:
This is really just a form of suicidal thinking and I think you should get some help.

Hoo-doo said:
God, this is the most Era post i'll read all week. Seek help.

I often wonder what the fuck i'm doing on this forum because every thread asking 'how are you' or 'how is your year going' is met with hundreds/thousands of replies akin to 'i am depressed/suicidal', 'I hate my life', or 'this is the worst year of my life' and most arguments coming from nihilistic/defeatist viewpoints.

This is genuinely a den of depression. I feel like the odd one out actually having a happy life with lots of things to live for.

"Depressive realism is the hypothesis developed by Lauren Alloy and Lyn Yvonne Abramson[1] that depressed individuals make more realistic inferences than non-depressed individuals. Although depressed individuals are thought to have a negative cognitive bias that results in recurrent, negative automatic thoughts, maladaptive behaviors, and dysfunctional world beliefs, realism argues not only that this negativity may reflect a more accurate appraisal of the world but also that non-depressed individuals' appraisals are positively biased"

Hoo-doo · Nov 5, 2019

banshee150 said:
"Depressive realism is the hypothesis developed by Lauren Alloy and Lyn Yvonne Abramson[1] that depressed individuals make more realistic inferences than non-depressed individuals. Although depressed individuals are thought to have a negative cognitive bias that results in recurrent, negative automatic thoughts, maladaptive behaviors, and dysfunctional world beliefs, realism argues not only that this negativity may reflect a more accurate appraisal of the world but also that non-depressed individuals' appraisals are positively biased"

This is not an argument. This is you regurgitating other people's thoughts and acting like it makes you intellectually superior somehow?

As I said. Try and get some help.

banshee150 · Nov 5, 2019

Hoo-doo said:
This is not an argument. This is you regurgitating other people's thoughts and acting like it makes you intellectually superior somehow?

As I said. Try and get some help.

I dont need help. But thanks for regurgitating tiresome advice. Anything else I should know from your book of pearls?

This kind of advice is insulting

Pomerlaw · Nov 5, 2019

banshee150 said:
Life is futile and pointless too. By having kids you introduce a need that need not exist (ask the martians if they are missing out on life) as well aa death, wage-slavery in addition to the climate change footprint and the rapidly accelerating extinction of the species.

People use kids as means to end (i.e. themselves) so its really impossible for me to justify

Maybe you feel your life is futile. Mine isn't.

banshee150 · Nov 5, 2019

Pomerlaw said:
Maybe you feel your life is futile. Mine isn't.

Ok doc.

Pomerlaw · Nov 5, 2019

Some people are proud to be miserable, so much that they try to make us feel miserable too. Life may be futile and we all die, but at least I'm enjoying my little moment here.

Bosch · Nov 5, 2019

banshee150 said:
Life is futile and pointless too. By having kids you introduce a need that need not exist (ask the martians if they are missing out on life) as well aa death, wage-slavery in addition to the climate change footprint and the rapidly accelerating extinction of the species.

People use kids as means to end (i.e. themselves) so its really impossible for me to justify

Great post.

DevilMayGuy · Nov 5, 2019

ITT

Just gotta keep this thread in mind when dealing with people on here, knowing how many of them are misanthropic antisocial doomsaying sad sacks. Thankfully this is the only place on the web that I deal with that has such a large percentage of it's members that spout the type of nonsense I've seen in here. I can't even imagine what life would be like if I was surrounded by such folks in my everyday life, if every interaction I had offline was tainted by the same hyper bleak catastrophic thinking. Damn.

BebopCola · Nov 5, 2019

Now, look, I can still feel shitty that my kids are going to inherit a madhouse while at the same time enjoying my life and the world around us that we still have. It is possible to have both trains of thought running at the same time. I mean, it IS inevitable that our children and grandchildren (and on and on) will have to endure difficult shit. That is life and the human condition.

You can feel both guilt and pride at the same time. The mind is not a binary system.

gir · Nov 5, 2019

sounds like some of you are sorry your dads got their legs over your mums, if it's any consolation I'm sorry about it too

banshee150 · Nov 5, 2019

Pomerlaw said:
Some people are proud to be miserable, so much that they try to make us feel miserable too. Life may be futile and we all die, but at least I'm enjoying my little moment here.

Realism man. The "gift" of life for some is a curse for others. No one should be allowed to gamble with other peoples welfare. They may end up hating life. Just becausd 2 people decided they were horny doesnt mean others have to suffer in their wake. Every person who killed themselves was sinned against by their parents.

Parents in general are the worst criminals. To end human suffering, sentience must end.

King_Moc · Nov 5, 2019

gir said:
sounds like some of you are angry your dads got their legs over your mums, if it's any consolation I'm sorry about it too

Lol gir has definitely had enough of this place today.

Pomerlaw · Nov 5, 2019

NoMoreTrolls said:
Just gotta keep this thread in mind when dealing with people on here, knowing how many of them are misanthropic antisocial doomsaying sad sacks. Thankfully this is the only place on the web that I deal with that has such a large percentage of it's members that spout the type of nonsense I've seen in here. I can't even imagine what life would be like if I was surrounded by such folks in my everyday life, if every interaction I had offline was tainted by the same hyper bleak catastrophic thinking. Damn.

It's sad really because most people here have otherwise great values. It's sad because if we want to make the world better, if we want to push these values forward we need people who can at least enjoy the great things in life, who respect life. Because no one is jumping on a train with desperate, misanthropic people.

BebopCola said:
Now, look, I can still feel shitty that my kids are going to inherit a madhouse while at the same time enjoying my life and the world around us that we still have. It is possible to have both trains of thought running at the same time. I mean, it IS inevitable that our children and grandchildren (and on and on) will have to endure difficult shit. That is life and the human condition.

You can feel both guilt and pride at the same time. The mind is not a binary system.

I think it's quite normal and the burden of any loving parent. But it's nothing new.

banshee150 said:
Realism man. The "gift" of life for some is a curse for others. No one should be allowed to gamble with other peoples welfare. They may end up hating life. Just becausd 2 people decided they were horny doesnt mean others have to suffer in their wake. Every person who killed themselves was sinned against by their parents.

Parents in general are the worst criminals. To end human suffering, sentience must end.

There are so much generalizations in your pos, it's an insult to call it 'realism'.

Sunster · Nov 5, 2019

Hoo-doo said:
God, this is the most Era post i'll read all week. Seek help.

I often wonder what the fuck i'm doing on this forum because every thread asking 'how are you' or 'how is your year going' is met with hundreds/thousands of replies akin to 'i am depressed/suicidal', 'I hate my life', or 'this is the worst year of my life' and most arguments coming from nihilistic/defeatist viewpoints.

This is genuinely a den of depression. I feel like the odd one out actually having a happy life with lots of things to live for.

It's an internet forum based around a hobby one usually does alone so it's bound to attract a certain percentage of people (myself included) with their own issues in that arena. I do agree with you though lol. Sometimes this place can be a lot with the,
My marriage is over Era Well, I'm going to kill myself tonight Threads. But those in the end are just people asking for help and I'm glad this is a place where they feel comfortable doing that.

Pomerlaw · Nov 5, 2019

Sunster said:
It's an internet forum based around a hobby one usually does alone so it's bound to attract a certain percentage of people (myself included) with their own issues in that arena. I do agree with you though lol. Sometimes this place can be a lot with the,
My marriage is over Era Well, I'm going to kill myself tonight Threads. But those in the end are just people asking for help and I'm glad this is a place where they feel comfortable doing that.

I don't think we can help them, and it is dangerous to pretend we can. I truly believe a lot of people here need profesionnal help, and I wish Mods take notice.

Podge293 · Nov 5, 2019

That line of thinking comes from people desperate to weigh in on the lives of others. Those that essentially hate any joy that exists in the world and are depressing ass cunts.

Sunster · Nov 5, 2019

Pomerlaw said:
I don't think we can help them, and it is dangerous to pretend we can. I truly believe a lot of people here need profesionnal help, and I wish Mods take notice.

Oh yeah definitely which is why I don't post in those threads. What I mean is, it's a good thing they are at least reaching out in a place they feel comfortable before doing anything. There should be a pre-written mod response to suicidal threads with detailed advice on professional help including numbers to call.

Hoo-doo · Nov 5, 2019

Pomerlaw said:
I don't think we can help them, and it is dangerous to pretend we can. I truly believe a lot of people here need profesionnal help, and I wish Mods take notice.

Same. These boards and areas like 4chan are rife with this kind of thinking and being surrounded by this garbage is certainly not doing anyone any good. I get that gaming is a nerdy and solitary hobby but we ain’t helping eachother anything meaningful. Every thread people are combative and harsh even over the most mundane of discussions. We help perpetuate it.

Everyone needs an occasional long healthy break from the computer and these communities for real. Sniff the air outside. Read a book.

banshee150 · Nov 5, 2019

Man all the self-masturbatory propaganda propagated here "they should get help" is more fake than silicon tits. Positivity sickens me to the core because its at loggerheads with every aspect of reality.

Man this species is such a disappointment and failure. Cant wait for extinction

jacket · Nov 5, 2019

banshee150 said:
By having kids you introduce a need that need not exist.

I Do Not Understand Not Having A Child Because Of "Climate Change" And The Like

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