"I don't buy X game because person Y is in/involved in the game"

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Council Pop

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,241
It's not usually an issue for me unless there's specific ideology within the game itself. For me, it's much more abhorrent to play US imperialist military fantasies like Call of Duty, than to play something utterly benign but with a problematic person behind the scenes, like Dragon Quest.
 

svacina

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,712
Could care less about that stuff, does not effect my purchase and I don't think people should judge others on what they buy when it comes to video games. I don't let one bad apple ruin it for the other hard workers within the company.
"Couldn't." It's "couldn't care less." Otherwise it makes no sense.
 

danmaku

Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,628
It depends on who's the shitty person. If it's a random member of the dev or art or QA team, it matters little. There are shitty persons everywhere. However, if it's a big figure in the project, like the director, and their terrible ideas are presented in the game, boycotting seems fine. You created a bad product and I don't want it.
 

spineduke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,726
It isn't a "fantastic post" it's a complete cop out.

So your moral indignation on "awful people" only extends to if you know specifically about it, but you're happy to turn a blind eye and support equally awful people so long as it isn't put under your nose?

If you're taking a moral stance of "I don't buy games which involve people with horrible opinions or actions" then it shouldn't matter whether it's specifically brought to your attention or not. Again, this is a cop out in order to be morally inconsistent.

Laws of averages dictate that any game developer of any size will have many, many people with "awful opinions and actions". Therefore if your moral line as to buying a game is to not support those people you cannot buy those games.

If you want to be morally inconsistent and pick and choose when you support these awful people and which ones to support go ahead, but be aware it isn't a consistent stance.
Your "law of averages" assumes that racist/bigoted views are encoded into every dev team. Frankly cannot believe the bullshit being spewed here.
 

doodlewhizz

Member
Jan 9, 2019
864
It isn't a "fantastic post" it's a complete cop out.

So your moral indignation on "awful people" only extends to if you know specifically about it, but you're happy to turn a blind eye and support equally awful people so long as it isn't put under your nose?

If you're taking a moral stance of "I don't buy games which involve people with horrible opinions or actions" then it shouldn't matter whether it's specifically brought to your attention or not. Again, this is a cop out in order to be morally inconsistent.

Laws of averages dictate that any game developer of any size will have many, many people with "awful opinions and actions". Therefore if your moral line as to buying a game is to not support those people you cannot buy those games.

If you want to be morally inconsistent and pick and choose when you support these awful people and which ones to support go ahead, but be aware it isn't a consistent stance.
So you're just ignoring the whole position of power side of the post you were quoted? Edit: I thought you were quoted that user's other very good post, apologies

Also, a law of averages isn't the same as real-life quotes/actions form actual people involved. If there were a load of devs for a certain game spouting racist/sexist/etc shit then I think it would affect some people's purchasing decisions, but you can't just automatically assume there's a fire when there's no smoke.
 

derFeef

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,920
Austria
It isn't a "fantastic post" it's a complete cop out.

So your moral indignation on "awful people" only extends to if you know specifically about it, but you're happy to turn a blind eye and support equally awful people so long as it isn't put under your nose?

If you're taking a moral stance of "I don't buy games which involve people with horrible opinions or actions" then it shouldn't matter whether it's specifically brought to your attention or not. Again, this is a cop out in order to be morally inconsistent.

Laws of averages dictate that any game developer of any size will have many, many people with "awful opinions and actions". Therefore if your moral line as to buying a game is to not support those people you cannot buy those games.
What is this nonsense. How can I be turning a blind eye if I dont know about it - I beleive in humans (yes, still). So why should I act in bad faith just out of suspicion.
 

Baconmonk

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
3,708
Depends level of involvement /whatever questionable thing the person did. I can't think of a specific example off the top of my head, but I do believe it hurts the team overall more than it sends a message about the person at hand.
 

Claven

Game Localization
Verified
Aug 22, 2018
2,531
"Couldn't." It's "couldn't care less." Otherwise it makes no sense.
Scroll to the end of the article.
 

svacina

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,712
Scroll to the end of the article.
If it's one of those "people have been using it wrong for so long we might as well give up" defenses I couldn't care less.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,780
It isn't a "fantastic post" it's a complete cop out.

So your moral indignation on "awful people" only extends to if you know specifically about it, but you're happy to turn a blind eye and support equally awful people so long as it isn't put under your nose?

If you're taking a moral stance of "I don't buy games which involve people with horrible opinions or actions" then it shouldn't matter whether it's specifically brought to your attention or not. Again, this is a cop out in order to be morally inconsistent.

Laws of averages dictate that any game developer of any size will have many, many people with "awful opinions and actions". Therefore if your moral line as to buying a game is to not support those people you cannot buy those games.

If you want to be morally inconsistent and pick and choose when you support these awful people and which ones to support go ahead, but be aware it isn't a consistent stance.
Why would anyone give a flying fuck about being "morally inconsistent"?

You, I, and everyone else in the world is operating on limited information. We are making decisions based off of what we know rather than what we don't know. That's all we're capable of doing. The idea of unflinchingly doing right decision every time in order to maintain consistency is an excellent principle for a universe we don't actually exist in.

Why, then, would we just throw our hands up in the air and go "I give up on making ethical decisions" because we might have a chance of getting them wrong? All this does is put us in a decision between giving up and trying to do the best we can; the latter option is still better than nothing, if marginally so.

This whole Schrodinger's Asshole scenario tends to come across as a cheap way of justifying one's having no morals because it doesn't really lead the decisions that it's presented as encouraging. It's always "well, someone making the games you do buy might be an asshole, so you should give up and buy them". But, if our lack of knowledge makes our options pointless - not that that's really true, since limited information is not no information, we might still know some of what we're supporting - then why do I buy anything? Why don't I go, well, video games are a luxury good. I can just boycott the lot of them.

Now, if we're going to criticize being morally inconsistent, I can't help but notice how people start caring about the devs that might be affected by someone not choosing to purchase a game only if they do it for ethical reasons. If they do it because they don't like the publisher, the developer, the story, the franchise, the graphics, the gameplay, or god knows what else, that discussion somehow doesn't come up.
 
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Tibarn

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,638
Barcelona
I buy games I want to play, nothing else, and even knowing that some people with a certain position that I don't agree with have contributed to a game I want, it's not going to stop me buying the game. I do boycott some companies because of bad ecological practices or other big known issues (not as much as I should, but convenience is stronger than ideals most of the times) , but I'm not boicotting a game because some of the staff follows some really bad ideological trend, as usually teams have enough worker diversity. Same with abusive monetization in some games, it's not that I boycott the game because it's setting a bad practice, I simply don't want to spend more time or money than the game deserves, but if other players are fine with it then it's fine with me.
 

Blade Wolf

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,379
Taiwan
I play what I want to play, yes I do have moral and is aware of the social drama surrounding certain games but at the end of the day If I want to play something I will just play it.

Take The Last Night for example, I will buy it and then play it, that's just who I am.
 

Robin

Restless Insomniac
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
1,871
It depends. An issue like what happened with DMCV or Dragon Quest, I'll still probably pick the game up. But a situation like say, Kingdom Come: Deliverance where the guy basically repping the game front and center was a total tool, I'm good.
 

Bomblord

Member
Jan 11, 2018
3,331
People absolutely should take a hard line stance when they know that by buying a game they are indirectly (or in some rare cases directly) supporting someone that they have a moral issue against. It's good to stand up for what you believe in and frequently the only way to directly protest that stuff is to hit the publishers in the wallet. Additionally, someone isn't hypocritical for not supporting a game with a prominent issue but then not knowing or researching the stance of every single member on a 100-1000 person team for every single game they play.

Also on that note I ask that I be allowed to enjoy a game even if someone who has problematic views is involved in it without being assumed to share and or support those views.
 
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Tain

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,675
Sounds petty, really.
Comments like this are so wild to me because they suggest that buying a video game is the default state. The expectation. That developers are entitled to a consumer's money, and that a consumer is somehow being irrational when they decide to NOT buy a game for almost any reason.

It's fuckin' warped.
 

Brix

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,275
Yeah I just play games that I’m interested in. Like I always played the dragon age games and that didn’t stop me from playing dq11.
 

MonadL

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,410
Now, if we're going to criticize being morally inconsistent, I can't help but notice how people start caring about the devs that might be affected by someone not choosing to purchase a game only if they do it for ethical reasons. If they do it because they don't like the publisher, the developer, the story, the franchise, the graphics, the gameplay, or god knows what else, that discussion somehow doesn't come up.
Oh God this bugs the fuck out of me. People don't give a fuck about the devs if they ship a bad game or have fucked up MTX models despite the fact that those decisions are made by a handful people while the rest have absolutely no say. When a higher up has reprehensible views however, all of a sudden it's "Don't punish the devs!"
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,491
It's impossible to avoid products that have never, at any point in their existence, been touched by shitty people. It's just the nature of humanity.

That being said, if someone who is a known piece of shit is a poster child for a game, or is the primary actor, or the primary auteur, or so on and so forth, I will not buy it because I don't want to support them directly. There are levels to this shit - you can refuse to support a specific person while still acknowledging that every product has been touched in some way by terrible people.
 

Unaha-Closp

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,404
Scotland
As yet I have not chosen to not buy a game because someone whose views I disagree with worked on said game. Not to say it will never happen, but as of now, it hasn't. I fully admit a blinkered and isolated viewpoint when it comes to me buying games. I consider myself and the game itself in a vacuum. Anything outside those parameters is not taking into consideration. Is that right? Wrong? I'll leave that to the Philosophers.
 
Jan 11, 2018
4,759
Scroll to the end of the article.
I feel like their point still stands. "Could care less" implies you actually care to some degree, which is the opposite of what most people who use this idiom mean to say.
 

OrdinaryPrime

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,012
Could care less about that stuff, does not effect my purchase and I don't think people should judge others on what they buy when it comes to video games. I don't let one bad apple ruin it for the other hard workers within the company.
Thank you for the grammar correction. Point stands.
Apathy is a disease.

I feel like their point still stands. "Could care less" implies you actually care to some degree, which is the opposite of what most people who use this idiom mean to say.
I feel like you could have corrected "effect" vs. "affect" as well if we're just going for a grammar lesson. Either way, I don't think Blindy's first language is English, so we should probably cut them some slack.
 

Manu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,859
Buenos Aires, Argentina
I'm torn. And I know it's mostly because I've never been on the receiving end of some of the terrible shit some of these people did/said.

Like I understand exactly why people boycott THQN, because they did some vile shit. But at the same time, they own the Darksiders IP, and I'm a big fan of Darksiders. And when people say "there are many other games you can buy" well... no. It's them who publish Darksiders so any sequels that come out I need to buy from them. So I have some very shitty people getting money from me supporting a series I'm a fan of, a series that was saved from certain death and was even able to get a lot of the original people who worked on the originals, and I really want to support them as well. So in some cases it's not as simple as "you can play other games." Some people are just able to drop a series they love because of the people involved. For me it's super hard, and it makes me feel conflicted.
 

Blindy

Member
Nov 16, 2017
1,305
Jesus christ. This is probably why I don't post on this forum that much. No idea one or two grammar errors would shift this thread.
 

Kyuuji

Member
Nov 8, 2017
5,388
UK
"If I cared then I'd have to care about everything"

..unlike the rest of your life where you manage to do get by caring about things to varying degrees based on the information you have available. Always an odd statement as there's no need to justify not caring about an issue someone else does. Suggesting caring about an issue requires omniscience over the entirety of it is stupid.
 

RyanG

Member
Nov 1, 2017
647
I can understand people doing this but also, kinda can't. Games are made by hundreds of people, just because you can name one kinda shitty, or extremely shitty person doesn't mean they should represent the whole imo. At worst there are multiple ass-hats even on games without controversy.

I respect peoples decision to skip out on a game though if they think it makes a difference or they really are just that offended by a person being involved. I'm all for voting with your wallet in these situations. Personally have not had this happen yet, but if I had a game I was excited for have some dude, I dunno spouting the N word or something I'd hard out on it most likely.

At the same time I don't follow individual devs or dev teams enough to really know who many of these people are.
This, basically. I'll never quite understand the logic behind "One person did shitty/problematic thing WILL NOT BUY" when most games are made by such huge amounts of people that it's inevitable that a few of those people are probably massive cunts, you just don't find out about it. If you don't like the idea of supporting something monetarily because you don't agree with the actions or viewpoints of people involved then be prepared to never buy a single consumer product ever again. Or eat meat, fish, eggs etc. Make sure you don't pay taxes or things like electricity bills either. I could go on.
 

Kyuuji

Member
Nov 8, 2017
5,388
UK
This, basically. I'll never quite understand the logic behind "One person did shitty/problematic thing WILL NOT BUY" when most games are made by such huge amounts of people that it's inevitable that a few of those people are probably massive cunts, you just don't find out about it. If you don't like the idea of supporting something monetarily because you don't agree with the actions or viewpoints of people involved then be prepared to never buy a single consumer product ever again. Or eat meat, fish, eggs etc. Make sure you don't pay taxes or things like electricity bills either. I could go on.
You'll never quite understand because you don't seem to have a desire to. There's numerous posts in the threads detailing it.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,780
I'm not going to disagree with any of your specific points, but this statement is problematic.

Moral consistency is literally the basis for philosophical meta-ethics and ethics as a whole.
If you take that statement out by itself than you change the topic being discussed.
 

Alastor3

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,100
It depend on a lot of things. I mean in a team of 100-200 people, you will surely find a few bad apples, does that mean the entire project is doomed?
 

RyanG

Member
Nov 1, 2017
647
You'll never quite understand because you don't seem to have a desire to. There's numerous posts in the threads detailing it.
Honestly i'm not going to sit here and read a ton of posts by people who are extremely selective about their "morality stances" because i think my brain would probably shut down in protest. But seeing as you replied to me feel free to point out where i am wrong in my post and we can discuss it from there.
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,055
A game is made.by hundreds of people.

I.may refuse to buy if the director, producer, financier says or do awful things.

But if a VA is outed as a.bad person i have to think about it. Lots of other people work on games. Group punishment is unfair and does not fix anything
 

MechaBreaker

Member
Jun 26, 2018
1,536
Also me or you not buying a video game is not a punishment on the developers. We aren't exactly organising mass boycotts or anything.
 

NHarmonic.

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
4,487
If it's one or a couple of people on a large team, I don't care. Not saying I don't care about the things they've done to harm a community or the shitty things they might have said, but I'm not going to let those things steer me away from playing and enjoying something that I like. I'm not a fan of the CDPR Tweets that have gone out for example, but that is one/a couple of people out of a very large company and likely didn't have any association with the development itself. With their recent statement on some posters found in the game, I feel like the stance had in the actual game itself will be far different than making a tasteless/harmful joke on Twitter. Same goes for the THQ thing. There's so many people at THQ has under their umbrella that I don't feel like depriving myself or the thousands of people who make the games under that umbrella who likely don't share the same sentiments, thought process, emotions that drive someone to host an AMA on 8Chan. I can understand wanting to hate on an entire company due to a couple of people ruining the brand, hurting people, etc. but this is something that is common across many companies even outside of the gaming industry and it's total boners and I frankly as a consumer don't have enough time to investigate every company I do business with to see if someone has done a shitty thing with them at some point and what the punishment/ramifications were, nor do I need anything else to stress myself out over.
This reads like someone handling a check to a douchebag racist shit, but saying at the same time “i don’t support you, i’m not supporting what you said”

Lmao.
 

Claven

Game Localization
Verified
Aug 22, 2018
2,531
Honestly i'm not going to sit here and read a ton of posts by people who are extremely selective about their "morality stances" because i think my brain would probably shut down in protest. But seeing as you replied to me feel free to point out where i am wrong in my post and we can discuss it from there.
Well, I don't know. In many things, you don't exactly have a choice, or you can't really screen everyone involved in producing the goods/providing the service.
In games (you know, entertainment, not a vitally important thing to have) you often can choose and also often know which individuals or companies are involved. If their stances on things like human rights are shitty, it's perfectly okay to not support them with your money, even if you don't obsessively make moral choices on everything else in your life. It's not rocket science, really.
 

Dest

The Fallen
Jun 4, 2018
3,030
Work
This reads like someone handling a check to a douchebag racist shit, but saying at the same time “i don’t support you, i’m not supporting what you said”

Lmao.
I think there's a pretty big difference between directly handing a piece of shit money and handing money to a large group of people that has a couple of pieces of shit who may or may not even be involved directly in the product you are giving that company money for.
 

SweetBellic

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,243
What I find to be more strange than that are the people who seem to be genuinely frustrated with other people making purchasing decisions for ethical reasons. I often get the sense that they feel like they're being compelled to do the same even if no one has actually asked them to or suggested that they should.
Is it that strange? Ethics and morals have an implicit universality and are inherently normative. When you state that you are not buying a game for ethical reasons, others will infer that you believe it is wrong not just for you to support to game, but for anyone to support the game. This implicit suggestion compels those who are buying said game to defend their morality and purchasing decision, for better or worse.
 

Finale Fireworker

Love each other or die trying.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
5,781
ResetEra
Whether somebody takes issue with a particular product, and whether they choose to purchase it, is a largely individual and personal decision. People discuss this when issues surface, but there is little to be gained from discussing it in terms of hypotheticals. These personal decisions are best discussed case by case and therefore best relegated to the specific examples that arise.
 
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