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I don't get Kylo Ren's character development

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rrc1594

rrc1594

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Oct 25, 2017
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First this is not a TLJ hate thread. I don't love the movie, but I don't hate it. I been in a really Star Wars mood of late and I been re-watching the movies. Kylo Ren as a character is confusing to me and to me they miss the boat on making him a legit threat going into Episode 9. I thought of all the things in TLJ they got wrong he wasn't one till the last 30 minutes of them movie. I love that he embrace the Dark side and killed Snoke. As much as a badass Vader is, he was an underling and Kylo decide he was going to be above that. Then the last 30 mins made him look like big man-child and a fool. He doesn't look like a threat or he can lead an army. I'm not looking forward to Rey Vs Kylo in EP9 because I have no doubt she will beat his ass. He went for fake Vader to something that can be a bigger threat then Vader to man-child.
 
El Bombastico

El Bombastico

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Oct 25, 2017
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Don't worry, you're far from the only one.

I look to forward to IX reverting his personality back to what it was at the start of TFA and then forcing an unearned redemption arc on him, because Abrams...
 
Gustaf

Gustaf

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Oct 28, 2017
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how does the last 30 minutes of TLJ make him look like a big man-child when the he throws like 2 temper tantrums on TFA

he was always a manchild
 
shtolky

shtolky

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funky

funky

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Its OK. They are just subverting your expectations for a compelling antagonist
 
Maximus

Maximus

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Oct 27, 2017
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I think they messed up a character that was developing into something interesting in Ep 7 and then went in a wildly different direction halfway through 8.

I hope they do something interesting with him in 9 and I hope they don't kill him off and end the Skywalker lineage, especially like that.
 
Maple

Maple

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Oct 27, 2017
11,732
I don't get it either. And it's not just Kylo Ren. None of these characters have any arcs or trajectories. It's just all over the place.
 
SolVanderlyn

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He is an unstable mess of a manchild who has moments of true coolness/badassery sprinkled throughout.

Seems pretty consistent. Just look at his initial reveal in TFA. Stopping the laser blast? Badass.

He is a very capable and dangerous warrior with massive character flaws. Also keep in mind that Vader in the OT was a 50 year old dude whereas Kylo Ren is about the same age as Anakin was in the prequels.
 
AegonSnake

AegonSnake

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Oct 25, 2017
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his character development is consistent. even though he extended rey an olive branch, he was never going to forgive Luke or NOT go after the rebels. he simply wanted Rey by his side.

hes still an impuslive kid and you dont change in a span of a couple of days which is basically how long TFA and TLJ are. I am hoping there is a long gap between the next movie so he can grow out of the man child phase and control his emotions a little more.
 
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rrc1594

rrc1594

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Oct 25, 2017
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SolVanderlyn said:
He is an unstable mess of a manchild who has moments of true coolness/badassery sprinkled throughout.

Seems pretty consistent. Just look at his initial reveal in TFA. Stopping the laser blast? Badass.

He is a very capable and dangerous warrior with massive character flaws. Also keep in mind that Vader in the OT was a 50 year old dude whereas Kylo Ren is about the same age as Anakin was in the prequels.
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I just feel like he could I been huge threat going into EP9.
 
UltraMagnus

UltraMagnus

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He is a man child ... that's part of the character, it doesn't invalidate other decisions he may make.
 
SolVanderlyn

SolVanderlyn

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rrc1594 said:
I just feel like he could I been huge threat going into EP9.
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He will be. He leads the FO army and it's likely his Knights of Ren will show up too. He's also better with a lightsaber than anyone else still alive.

His unstable nature is what makes him vulnerable. Watching him struggle with it/overcome it/fall to it will be part of what builds tension.
 
Z-Beat

Z-Beat

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He was rejected for being too powerful so now he idolizes his grandpa who he sees as being more or less the same but he's conflicted about being able to commit fully and opted to burn it all down and do it himself
 
El Bombastico

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Einchy

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rrc1594 said:
I thought him killing Snoke was away of him showing I'm not Vader, I'm be bigger then that.
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You say at the end that he was a man child but TFA showed us that he was completely unstable from the get go. A person who has very little control over his emotions. Kylo kills Snoke to "kill the past" and have Rey join him to create something new. He overcomes that part of him that was afraid of not living up to Vader, he no longer cares about that, but he was never able to conquer his emotions.
 
Lifejumper

Lifejumper

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Oct 25, 2017
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Kylo is reverse anakin. He is being pulled by the light. You don't know what the fuck he is going to do next.

+

Great performance by Adam Driver

=

Great villain
 
KarmaCow

KarmaCow

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Oct 25, 2017
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He's like a kid lured in by the alt-right, realises that they are bullshit but instead of breaking free he falls into Q Anon.
 
Praetorpwj

Praetorpwj

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Nov 21, 2017
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Character development is consistent. He gets beat in TFA and then he gets beat again in TLJ. I look forwards to another thrilling ass whooping in ROTS.

He's The Hooded Claw of SW.
 
Strangelove_77

Strangelove_77

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Hes a cute badboy who the girl has to change to be a good boy so they can head off into the sunset together forever.
 
Tremorah

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Well have to see in IX how he ends up, i really hope there isnt some sort of redemption ala Return of The Jedi because fucking hell do something original
 
FeD

FeD

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Oct 25, 2017
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He's a guy the feels betrayed and alone by everyone close to him (whether that's right or wrong). Snoke is someone that at the very least shows interest in him, makes him feel valued. During TLJ he starts connecting with Rey and finally gets someone else that might want to be with him, that believes in him. Because of Rey he feels comfortable enough to kill the only person who was interested in him in his eyes (which he knows was using him), expecting her to be with him afterwards. But Rey doesn't want that and that completely sends him back in anger because now he's completely alone in a role he cannot carry.
 
HardTimesFamilyPride

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rrc1594 said:
I thought they did a good job him possibly moving pass that through the TLJ, then he reverted back to it at the end
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I think part of the character is that he is, in fact, a man-child, and him being such is what causes his problems. But instead of getting real with himself he blames every one around him and lashes out at them.

Big arc wise (all 3 films), I believe this is the major character fault he possesses which he will either overcome in IX or which will ultimately cause his downfall.

In terms of being a threat, I personally never expected him to fully fill that role. I see him as someone who wants to be a threat (in the way I think you're describing, he's obviously some kind of threat in general with all the death he's contributed to) but when you get down to it he's just a bitter kid who prolly needs a reality check. His Vader idolization supports that, methinks. He is trying real hard to be something that, deep down, he isn't.
 
Khanimus

Khanimus

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He's an irredeemable petulant little shit. That is the point.

They play him off as maybe he was manipulated or exploited. Maybe there is something there that can be reached out to. His dad tried. Rey tried. But the truth is he's a vile motherfucker complicit in every horrible act of violence and suffering he has inflicted.

Some people just fucking suck.
 
Gustaf

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Yerba_Sutra said:
I think part of the character is that he is, in fact, a man-child, and him being such is what causes his problems. But instead of getting real with himself he blames every one around him and lashes out at them.

Big arc wise (all 3 films), I believe this is the major character fault he possesses which he will either overcome in IX or which will ultimately cause his downfall.

In terms of being a threat, I personally never expected him to fully fill that role. I see him as someone who wants to be a threat (in the way I think you're describing, he's obviously some kind of threat in general with all the death he's contributed to) but when you get down to it he's just a bitter kid who prolly needs a reality check. His Vader idolization supports that, methinks. He is trying real hard to be something that, deep down, he isn't.
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reading your post, make me think of a Heisenberg-like speech to Skylar, saying why he did the things he has done.
 
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rrc1594

rrc1594

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FYI I do like the character. I'm just a sucker for the Final Boss feel when it comes to characters, I like Kylo and wish the built him like that.
 
808s & Villainy

808s & Villainy

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Gustaf said:
how does the last 30 minutes of TLJ make him look like a big man-child when the he throws like 2 temper tantrums on TFA

he was always a manchild
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I think he meant he expected progression and when he was trying to lead Rey astray in TLJ it looked like he had matured

Kylo wants to be Doflamingo, but he's Bellamy-tier
 
Masterz1337

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Oct 25, 2017
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I think TLJ really messed up what was going for him, even if I liked most of his arc in the movie until he killed Snoke.

Kylo Ren should be a cool villain, because his story is essentially that of a regular person with a bright future, to an alt-right fanatic. He grows up with every opportunity, amazing gifts, and a family. But when he feels like an outcast, unaccepted, and not given the respect he feels he deserves, he falls under the influence of someone far away who makes him feel like he has a purpose, that he has been wronged, and gives him a violent facist ideology he latches onto. He looks at the older generation and the power they held, and wants that level of respect and power. He follows this dark influencer and joins a cult, he begins to kill and enslave and longs for the days when people like him were on top again.

He's a star wars neo nazi, and it's really to JJ abrams credit that when they started writing TFA back in 2013 or 2014, long before gamergate or the rise of the alt-right, he was able to create a character which only a few months later would appear all over the real world.

The idea of the the first order being an insurrection of people who said "you know maybe the empire wasn't all bad" "they had some good things going for us" and forming and recruiting for their cause, is exactly what we have going on today.

TLJ could have continued this idea, but instead it devolves into nothing that interesting of the sort. The ST could have focused around the fall of Ben Solo to the space Neo Nazis, and shown his journey of redemption or darkened his journey by showing how he was ruining everything around him in the process. It's such a great seed of a story that's been squandered.
 
Jobbs

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El Bombastico said:
They do have arcs, they just reset them with each new movie...



He should have been, but no, gotta bring back Sheev to appease the fanboys...
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They're bringing back sheev because there's basically no other option. Your third act in a simple star wars retread needs a big bad for it to be climactic. It can't be someone brand new because that's not dramatic. It can't be kylo because there's no real fear or tension there since Rey already beats him every time they fight. Literally the only thing they can do is go backwards after the mess tlj left. Probably going to be some end game time travel stuff.
 
funky

funky

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Spaced Harrier said:
Neither do the directors.
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I thought TFA had a interesting set up.

Rey was the on paper good one but something pulling her to the dark side, Kylo was the reverse as the bad guy with something pulling him to be good but he increasingly lashes out to try keep face and play Vader.

But like many things that got tossed out in Ep8 and they didnt really advance outside of doubling down on the standard good guy versus bad guy stuff and removing any possibility of a shade of grey or any possible mid arch face / heel turn.
 
Wogan

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Oct 28, 2017
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I'd wait a movie before judging his arc.

Buuuuut, So far though we've seen a young man who had a legacy to live up to. Well two legacies really. And through his own actions and the actions of others he's felt pulled in both directions. And really railroaded down the dark side path by Luke and Snoke. He's not emotionally equiped for either expectation and that's kind of not his fault. He's not an innocent but he has been a victim. His tantrums show his lack of maturity. His actions are those of someone seeking praise from either side, anywhere. He's looking for a home, not a physical one of course. A place he fits. He's not a Luke, he's not a Vader but he must feel like he should have been both.

He's a fancinating character.
 
Starphanluke

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I usually just immediately press the ignore button on Star Wars threads here, but I'll give a quick take as Kylo is my second favorite Star Wars character:

Kylo is, at his core, fundamentally drawn to the light. But Snoke whispered in his ear for months/years about the dark side and slowly put thoughts into his head. Then, he found out that his family had been keeping a whopper kf a secret from him (Vader was his grandpa), and he awoke one night with Luke standing over him with an ignited lightsaber. Luke's great mistake drove Kylo to the darkside. While he is drawn to the light, he has seen the folly of it and chose the darkness instead.

TLJ shows us that Rey and Kylo both feel extremely alone. Their mentors were disappointments (Luke and Han), and they find solace in each other. This is why we see Ben start to move past his often childish demeanor. He genuinely sees a future with Rey at his side. He offers this to her with his newfound confidence, but she outwardly turns it down because he is still unwilling to embrace the light within him.

Once Rey rejects him, he his back to his old ways--especially because he is then confronted by Luke. And in the end of TLJ, we see he is emptier and lonelier than ever before.

His whole trajectory is to set up the idea that Rey is the missing piece that can fill the void that he feels in both the dark and the light side. I don't. Necessarily mean this romantically, though a substabtial section of the fan base leans towards that interpretation.

Tldr: He feels betrayed by anyone he's ever trusted--Luke, Han, Snoke--and Rey is the first person in a long time he feels he can genuinely reach out to. But she turns him down and, like with the others, he feels betrayed, leading him back to the road he has walked before.
 
Deleted member 21339

Deleted member 21339

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He's conflicted a character. He killed Han hoping it would extinguish the light in him but it actually made him even more unbalanced. Snoke throws this in his face telling him "you have too much of your father's heart in you, young solo." Kylo resents this because, even after proving his mettle by killing Han, Snoke still calls him a child, still sees him as unworthy, still says he'll never be the next Vader. Kylo destroys the mask ... probably out of defiance of Snoke.. it was his first step toward distancing himself from Snoke. The Vader idolization seems like it was something that was planted in his mind by Snoke "When I found you ... I saw the potential of your bloodline. A new Vader."

He then jumps into his cruiser in an attempt to strike a blow against the Resistance (prove he's not a child) and he does, but he still can't bring himself to kill his mother. He's still got good in him. This was also a ploy by Snoke to stoke his conflict soul because he knew Kylo would grow more isolated and in bridging hima Rey together, Kylo does reach out and shows another side of himself .... Rey takes the bait..but Snoke also underestimated Kylo. He was more savvy than he thought.

I think with Rey, Kylo seeing an opening to off Snoke hopes to remake the world with her at his side but when she rejects him he kinda loses it AGAIN. And the encounter with Luke just sends him off the rails. He can't let that one go. So yea ... he's still kinda confilct and unstable. Kinda consistent lol
 
MidnightCowboy

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I think the man-child element is what makes him interesting (and because Driver is a great actor). It's atypical for a big franchise villain. He's kind of a loser.
 
TheXbox

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He's unhinged. That is his character. Brutal, impulsive, emotionally volatile. I can see how the Crait sequence chips away at his credibility as a Badass super antagonist, but that was never Kylo. Poe needles him with insults inside the first ten minutes of TFA. He talks to a helmet for emotional therapy.

Honestly, would anyone doubt that Rey would ultimately beat Kylo even if he was as menacing as Vader? As he is, I think he's the most intriguing character Star Wars has ever had. His whole existence is meta commentary on the franchise and fanboys and filmmakers carrying the burden of the OT.
 
Trickster

Trickster

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I doubt anyone really gets it. Seems like Disney is making the same mistake with this trilogy that Bioware made with Mass Effect. They're basically making it up as they go along on a movie by movie basis. The decision to switch directors between movies, with seemingly no central kevin feige type person to help tie things together, is completely baffling
 
HardTimesFamilyPride

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Gustaf said:
reading your post, make me think of a Heisenberg-like speech to Skylar, saying why he did the things he has done.
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"I am a monster" is pretty close to that I'd say (EDIT: it's kind of his "I AM THE ONE WHO KNOCKS" moment)

rrc1594 said:
Yeah. I though him killing Snoke and fulling embracing the dark side would make him comfortable with himself.
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I get where you're coming from, but my reading of the character is that this is what he thinks he wants, but it isn't what he actually needs. In writing terms, it's "the lie the character believes". It's the axiom that he has to break within himself.
 
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petethepanda

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The biggest thing TLJ was stuck with was having to piece together character (and overall world) groundwork that TFA completely failed to lay out. Practically no one had anything more than a vague notion of an arc set up.
 
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