I don't really find the myth of Batman appealing in the modern context

[Deleted member 1656]

I mean, the money comes from money shuffling to find an organization to fight said curse, Batman uses money to unknowingly do same be it through his rogue's gallery or donations and programs.

I don't know what you want...him to be poor? To not have money? To walk across America like Superman? Okay that's sounding hostile, I'm joking around, but my point is it just doesn't seem to be a way to make Batman work for you at this point if him having wealth is a hang up.

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Somebody could try doing a run where his wealth is yanked. I believe that's already been done with Bats, and as I mentioned it's been done in a prominent fashion with other characters like Green Arrow, but I don't know of an ultra good Bat story where it's all gone. He has lost a chunk of it in Beyond as Mekanos mentioned and Bruce is an even shadier figure there and obviously Terry is very Peter Parker-esque. Which reminds me that the BTAS episode "The Forgotten," in which Bruce is imprisoned, suffers amnesia, and forgets he's Batman, might be my favorite one...

Maybe I just don't actually like Batman at all.

 

[Lua]

The very concept of superheroes makes no sense and its a tad fascistic if you think about it,it's what watchmen is all about for instance. Batman would save way more people if he used those millions to create more schools,hospitals and bank on informational campaigns for the general public about vacination and sexual diseases prevention instead of going down the street at night in a costume punching criminals.

 

[Buzzman]

You don't fucking solve crime by beating up criminals or mentally ill people. Batman is a goddamn psychopath who thinks Gotham is his private playground to run around in and and beat up poor people with his toys. It's a standard republican fantasy of playing vigilante and handing out "real" justice because the system just isn't tough enough.

 

[Doctoglethorpe]

The billionaire shit doesnt really bother me much. Now the police brutality and surveillance state angles, those are being harder to overlook.
But really it’s the villains and psychological angle that make him the best. He’s my favorite hero because he’s flawed as fuck and self-depreciating.

 

[Masterspeed]

Keep in mind that Batmans world of Gotham is way more crime riddled than any city in our world. It’s a fucking hell hole at times, even though it has super class.

 

[Mekanos]

The comparisons to characters like Superman fall a bit short because his powers are abstract to us. What would the world look like if a god walked among humans? We can only speculate. We do know what the world looks like when billionaires sit on their wealth and let inequality continue. And it's bad.

 

[Deleted member 2226]

As Batman though, he needs to fucking kill his supervillains on top of that.

Joker should not be alive. I'm sorry.

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I mean if we're applying real-world frameworks to comic book heroes the question of killing Joker is irrelevant. The guy wouldn't be breaking out of Arkham every other day. If anyone was going to kill him it'd be the guards there if he tried to escape.

I think shows like The Animated Series did a pretty good job of showing that as Bruce Wayne Batman actually did do a lot of good with his money and running a company that stood for more than profits; the crusading is much more about the symbolism.

It runs into the same issues every other hero does with regards to vigilantism, but frankly I don't think Batman really touches some of the MCU in terms of not really grappling with its intrinsic issues (I mean Tony Stark gave a sixteen-year-old a legion of killer drones just 'cause.)

 

[CoolestSpot]

Somebody could try doing a run where his wealth is yanked. I believe that's already been done before with Bats, and as I mentioned it's been done in a prominent fashion with other characters like Green Arrow, but I don't know of an ultra good Bat story where it's all gone. He has lot a chunk of it in Beyond as Mekanos mentioned and Bruce is an even shadier figure there and obviously Terry is very Peter Parker-esque. Which reminds me that the BTAS episode "The Forgotten," in which Bruce is imprisoned, suffers amnesia, and forgets he's Batman, might be my favorite one...

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I think all we need is Bruce choosing to stay in gotham cause the curse, and containing and fixing it, but using wealth worldwide to improve everywhere, not use Gotham.

Batman inc. Slightly touched on that, but only was using other crimefighters and was counter to Spiral or whatever that spy enemy for the arc was. So bring it back, Bruce becomes Jeff Bezos if he funded every program possible on Earth (maybe even superhero/villian repair/protection services?) And even paying off politicians to pass laws that benefit more people.

Then he can stay rich, but be over the top morally righteous.

 

[Alienous]

Seems like a good time to rewatch Batman Begins, OP.

He's a character that uses his resources to wrest control of a city away from criminals. Beyond that he enables some fun detective stories as a one-man police force.

Wayne Enterprises exists as its own thing, handed down to him, and to his father. They're shown in the comics to invest in public good initiatives as much as a company could be expected to.

 

[jph139]

It's a cliche at this point but, when you get down to it, superhero vigilantism is essentially proto-fascism.

- A "might makes right" philosophy - those who have the power deserve the power.
- Criminality is rooted in, and also the cause of, social/moral rot.
- Existing as a counterpoint to "the system," which is weak and corrupt.
- Violence as the ultimate solution to these problems.
- A fixation on masculinity, virility, and ubermensch iconography.
- Repurposing of mythic and pre-modern symbols.

Batman can be summed up with the following: Gotham City is broken. I am the only one who can fix it, because I am the only one with the means to do so. I am above the law and will not be constrained by it. My means will be the use of extrajudicial violence, and the fear thereof. I will recruit and train others, mostly the young and disaffected, and they will adhere to my philosophy and wear my symbol.

It's not great!

Ultimately, I think the difference between "harmful" vigilantism and "positive" vigilantism is active vs. passive. Superman doesn't hunt down criminals, he just stops them from harming others and contributes where he's welcome.

 

[DeathyBoy]

Batman exists to inspire other people to save Gotham.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

No like, the city is literally drenched in demon sin.

In fact the bat that came through Batman's window was sent by a dark multiversal demon lord to try to send batman on path to break him free.

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All joking aside he does both. A lot of comics go out of their way to talk about the charitable organizations he helps funds, but is Gotham is a hell city and basically eats itself.

It's a cursed location like some shit out of Uzumaki.

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I think they mean literally cursed. Like occult magic spell doomed to fail cursed lol. So Batman is actually in a Sysphean loop of tortured self and tortured city.

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Yes I understand that (like the city is literally cursed) but I can see why OP would find that premise myopic, cynical, and unappealing. I used to love Batman, but I've kind of soured on the mythos as I've gotten older for the same reasons.

and there’s plenty of stories about him helping them rehabilitate themselves and get out of the life.

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Sure but that doesn't necessarily justify beating the hell out of them. I get it's just comics but I can see why people are bothered by the inherent contradictions in the premise and execution of Batman storylines.

Except in a lot of stories Wayne Enterprises funds a lot of projects in Gotham...

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Sure, but a lot of money funds military grade weapons for Bruce to play with as Batman and cause destruction in the city. Both are true of the character.

Um it is in this fictional city, Batman could be 100% victorious but it will just be for a few issues before DC changes the story or reboots it.

Little stuff can change but Gotham will always remain the way it is with DC having characters like Batman, Joker, etc operating

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I understand how comics work, but I also understand why people might become frustrated with the stories as well. I mean we just had a thread about all the times Bruce has been physically violent with his adopted children, sometimes the worldview Batman comics present is problametic.

 

[RiOrius]

What's this about Gotham being cursed? And why hasn't Batman fixed that yet? Dude's killed a god and has a dozen teammates with occult powers: surely he can lift a measly curse, right?

 

[Megadragon15]

Figures come and go in pop culture. Batman is definitely on the decline and, in a few more years, no one is going to care about him. You are definitely not alone in this feeling.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

The good guy is a psychopath who feeds people to mutant plants?

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Gooder than batman.

 

[thewienke]

Batman has had stories written about him for 80 years so you're going to get a lot of people saying "in issue #53939587 he actually renounced capitalism and voted for Bernie Sanders" but they don't really tackle the underlying issue of the Batman character, an elite whose primary method of fighting crime is to, quite literally, fight crime. It's much more exciting for a comic book than a story about a billionaire fighting corrupt legislation and setting up charities.

Also because of the nature of comics, status quo above all.

That's not getting into the Nolan movies which have some pretty blatant fash/authoritarian apologia (mass surveillance is seen as a necessary evil and criminals will raid the rich's homes if let loose). I say this as someone who once considered TDK their all time favorite movie.

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Batman also has a happy ending in the Nolan-verse which, to me, seems antithetical to the nature of Batman who is miserable and tortured. All that money and he can’t buy an ounce of happiness - it’s almost part of the moral of the story and a motivation in his desire for revenge.

But the happy end makes for a good crowd pleasing end cap on a great trilogy but if there was ever an end to Batman’s story - it’s not a happy one.

 

[Mekanos]

Batman also has a happy ending in the Nolan-verse which, to me, seems antithetical to the nature of Batman who is miserable and tortured. All that money and he can’t buy an ounce of happiness - it’s almost part of the moral of the story and a motivation in his desire for revenge.

But the happy end makes for a good crowd pleasing end cap on a great trilogy but if there was ever an end to Batman’s story - it’s not a happy one.

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Batman Beyond is definitely the most likely outcome for Bruce, assuming he doesn't get killed in action. Bitter, alone, broken.

 

[Mars People]

Batman can be summed up with the following: Gotham City is broken. I am the only one who can fix it, because I am the only one with the means to do so. I am above the law and will not be constrained by it. My means will be the use of extrajudicial violence, and the fear thereof. I will recruit and train others, mostly the young and disaffected, and they will adhere to my philosophy and wear my symbol.

It's not great!

Ultimately, I think the difference between "harmful" vigilantism and "positive" vigilantism is active vs. passive. Superman doesn't hunt down criminals, he just stops them from harming others and contributes where he's welcome.

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I take issue with some of this. Batman usually actively works with law enforcement to solve crimes. At least to some extent. He also lets criminals be judged by the Gotham legal system after he catches them.

 

[DragonSJG]

Doesn't Batman invest?

 

[TheMango55]

I'm not much of a capes comic reader anymore but these days I'm finding characters like a (non-Stark tech sponsored) Spider-Man and Superman more appealing. I'm finding Clark Kent really appealing actually. With what he has I'm certain the first thing most would think of doing is obtaining money with it. And he doesn't. He just helps as best as he can otherwise. He doesn't disrupt the whole world to fit his vision when maybe it would be more ethical to actually but that's another conversation. The point is he just helps. That's what appeals to me right now in superheroes. Ones that just help. Not ones that hog the wealth.

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Superman has virtually infinite resources.

 

[The Vathlonian]

Batman got ridiculous for me once they started making him fight Superman, Wonder Woman, The Flash etc. By that time his claim of being a superhero without powers was just a goddamn lie. Then with all of this stuff he's apparently capable of accomplishing with 'prep time,' the only thing he can do is come up with plans to beat up his friends? He's not ending homelessness in Gotham, improving access to mental health care, or ending hunger in The Narrows but he's killing Superman and lighting Jon Jonzz on fire? Terrible character, man.

 

[Listai]

Doesn't Batman invest?

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I suppose he does, I forgot that in Dark Knight RRises he tanked Wayne Enterprises by investing in the fusion reactor thing.

 

[JB1981]

He turns a terrible personal loss and trauma into something good for his city. That’s a good story, regardless of his privilege.

In the Nolanverse, Thomas Wayne went bankrupt trying to stir the wealthy and powerful into action but it didn’t fully take.

By the end of TDKR, Bruce leaves the manor and property to at-risk and orphaned youth and what’s left of his estate to Alfred, his lifelong butler. I’d say he did a lot of good in the modern context

 

[The Vathlonian]

I don't see how Superman is any better. Like Batman, he's an individual with an unfathomable amount of power that he did nothing to earn and which he uses to stop street-level crimes. Batman could be doing more with his money, but so too could Superman do more. He could fight hunger by transporting food from rich nations to poor or helping prepare land for agriculture, he could drag an asteroid with valuable metals to impoverished lands to give them an economical boost, etc. But instead he works a normal job, stops muggings on his lunch break, helps out in emergencies and occasionally ends a world-level threat. Basically what Batman does, but with a more colorful costume.

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Superman stops end of all life threats, sir. he fights multiversal threats. He can't solve all hunger everywhere or do any of that stuff he did in the past because comics exist in a shared universe now so Superman has to be toned down to make every other character seem necessary. In the past, people wondered why Superman needed the Justice League. But these days Superman can barely form a coherent thought/plan of action without Batman. He's been nerfed to make everyone else look good.

 

[jph139]

I take issue with some of this. Batman usually actively works with law enforcement to solve crimes. At least to some extent. He also lets criminals be judged by the Gotham legal system after he catches them.

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I mean, isn't that even worse? "I'm not a cop and have zero oversight, but the police look the other way and provide me with intel and resources."

And for the latter, I think it would be tough to get a fair trial in Gotham. Batman being included in the process at all throws a huge wrench in things. Like, are you gonna be the guy who stands up and defends Two-Face when a bat-themed paramilitary army is patrolling the streets and acting with impunity? And has the public on his side? (Like, WE know Batman isn't gonna do that, because WE know Batman is a good guy, but we have the luxury of seeing the universe from outside it.)

I actually really liked the Mr. Freeze arc in Cold Days, where Bruce goes after Freeze shortly after Catwoman leaves him at the alter, realizes his judgement may have been impaired, then ends up on the jury as Bruce Wayne and sort of questions the whole thing.

 

[Vyse]

People who criticize Batman's work and universe's well being in an earnest seem genuinely insane to me, it's like they seriously don't understand that it's a comic where conflict HAS to constantly exist and Gotham can't prosper beyond a certain level. It's okay to dislike the series but there's no point in wondering why we don't get 50 issues of a peaceful Gotham.

 

[ThousandEyes]

Black panther is worse. He’s a king in an ethnocentric nation and a multi trillionaire probably

 

[Jiggy]

What's this about Gotham being cursed? And why hasn't Batman fixed that yet? Dude's killed a god and has a dozen teammates with occult powers: surely he can lift a measly curse, right?

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Why doesn't Ash grow up? How did Luke Skywalker let a second Empire rise up? Why does Bowser keep kidnapping the same woman over and over again. Stories gotta keep happening my man.

Figures come and go in pop culture. Batman is definitely on the decline and, in a few more years, no one is going to care about him. You are definitely not alone in this feeling.

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A movie about a Batman character is about to make a billion dollars this year.

 

[Ferulci]

The very concept of superheroes makes no sense and its a tad fascistic if you think about it,it's what watchmen is all about for instance. Batman would save way more people if he used those millions to create more schools,hospitals and bank on informational campaigns for the general public about vacination and sexual diseases prevention instead of going down the street at night in a costume punching criminals.

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But he does... as Bruce Wayne.

 

[Lua]

But he does... as Bruce Wayne.

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then he shouldn't need to go down the street and punch criminals.

 

[Joshwraith]

Spider-Man was always the people's champion. Batman is a cop

 

[DragonSJG]

Batman Beyond is definitely the most likely outcome for Bruce, assuming he doesn't get killed in action. Bitter, alone, broken.

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He does kinda get a happy ending.

 

[KingM]

The very concept of superheroes makes no sense and its a tad fascistic if you think about it,it's what watchmen is all about for instance. Batman would save way more people if he used those millions to create more schools,hospitals and bank on informational campaigns for the general public about vacination and sexual diseases prevention instead of going down the street at night in a costume punching criminals.

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Bruce Wayne spends a large deal of time combating social ills with his wealth. But Gotham is a hellhole that's cursed, the target of super villain organizations and has 20+ super criminals running around every night.

What's this about Gotham being cursed? And why hasn't Batman fixed that yet? Dude's killed a god and has a dozen teammates with occult powers: surely he can lift a measly curse, right?

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I believe one of them is that Gotham is built on a literal hellhole.

 

[TheMadTitan]

That really doesn't hold true to the source material. Rather than spend millions on helping those in poverty, he spends millions on military grade weapons tech.

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He does both because he's crazy.

He's the man who buys a tank to put in his basement and he's also the man who buys African diamond mines so that he can pay the workers a living wage. This is a dude who started a project to rebuild a run down part of Gotham City (which included Crime Alley) only to be attacked and the project derailed by a series of zombie ninja assassins backed by a secret cabal of billionaires.

 

[thewienke]

Batman Beyond is definitely the most likely outcome for Bruce, assuming he doesn't get killed in action. Bitter, alone, broken.

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Absolutely and, to get back to the OP’s major problem, it’s why he’s probably the only “billionaire” comic book character where his wealth isn’t a defining trait to me.

Dude could have only a dollar to his name and he’d still be out there punching bad guys at night and calling himself Batman. I’m not as well versed as many here on Bruce Wayne but haven’t they more or less demonstrated that he’s still Batman without all the tech and money more than once?

 

[Old Man Spike]

I feel like Batman would be more vocal about his love for dinosaurs, but doesn't want to get dragged into the argument over feathers vs no feathers.

(The "one man war on crime in Goitham" schtick has run its course. Go back and stick to "adventuring detective solving strange mysteries" DC.)

 

[Burly]

What's one billionaire's wealth spent on social projects worth in the grand scheme of things, though? Really, Batman should become a lobbyist to affect the greatest change. Maybe run for president.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Nearly every Batman story arc has him investing in some new charity or invention to help the world.

Hell in BTAS he used all his resources and finally found a cure for Nora Fries....
And Freeze stays a villain afterwards

 

[Deleted member 11413]

Black panther is worse. He’s a king in an ethnocentric nation and a multi trillionaire probably

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Wut? Bizarre take.

 

[RochHoch]

I thought that the point of Batman was that no matter what Bruce Wayne does with his wealth to fight crime through conventional means, it's never enough to save Gotham. That's why he has to take matters into his own hands.

 

[mugurumakensei]

1) Bruce Wayne invests quite heavily in poverty programs, clean energy, etc in multiple storylines.
2) Unless you put a cap on stock price, there will always be billionaires. Create a new company + make it successful + go public later will make you a billionaire.

 

[Xpike]

Black panther is worse. He’s a king in an ethnocentric nation and a multi trillionaire probably

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what

 

[ThousandEyes]

what

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Wut? Bizarre take.

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Wakanda is xenophobic and ethnocentric and tchalla is a dictator. I meant that I think he in many ways is worse person than Bruce

 

[Lua]

Bruce Wayne spends a large deal of time combating social ills with his wealth. But Gotham is a hellhole that's cursed, the target of super villain organizations and has 20+ super criminals running around every night.

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I am familiar with the concept of gotham being cursed, but i just find it very lazy and bad.

 

[poutmeter]

Gotham is corrupt as hell, I don't see how him spending all his wealth is going to clean/save the city. You can't trust anybody in the godforsaken city.

 

[TheMadTitan]

You don't fucking solve crime by beating up criminals or mentally ill people. Batman is a goddamn psychopath who thinks Gotham is his private playground to run around in and and beat up poor people with his toys. It's a standard republican fantasy of playing vigilante and handing out "real" justice because the system just isn't tough enough.

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Given that he only exists in-universe because he saw the Republican power fantasy taking hold in local and federal law enforcement and decided to tackle that corrupt bullshit from the outside, that doesn't make sense. Especially when he's tackled plenty of power tripping/corrupt politicians and police officers. It's the same with the Punisher.

What's this about Gotham being cursed? And why hasn't Batman fixed that yet? Dude's killed a god and has a dozen teammates with occult powers: surely he can lift a measly curse, right?

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Because it's not a measly curse. Cosmic deities and high tier demons and shit; not something magic users can just up and move or get rid of. Though I'm partially sure that the curse is no longer a constant thing due to recent events, I'm sure there's some lingering woobly wobble that continues to make shit hhorribl.

then he shouldn't need to go down the street and punch criminals.

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When those criminals stop running around with assault rifles and rocket launchers, he'll probably stop punching them.

Batman and his ilk don't get involved in regular crime. They'll do it if they're nearby, but that's generally scaring people or trapping them for the cops to round up. If they're punching people, they're punching supervillains and narcoterrorists.

 

[Sasliquid]

Most of these problems stem from comics need to always revert to some status quo. Good Batman stories have him doing some investment infrastructure but it can never make an actual impact cos then they wouldn’t be able to sell comics.

 

[Mekanos]

I thought that the point of Batman was that no matter what Bruce Wayne does with his wealth to fight crime through conventional means, it's never enough to save Gotham. That's why he has to take matters into his own hands.

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Which leads right into the soft-fash vigilantism angle. Harsh on crime, etc. It's a hyperbolic story that supports that viewpoint.

 

[808s & Villainy]

then he shouldn't need to go down the street and punch criminals.

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You don't seem to understand how societies work if you think a single billionaire making donations can suddenly solve all the problems

 

[Ogodei]

I take issue with some of this. Batman usually actively works with law enforcement to solve crimes. At least to some extent. He also lets criminals be judged by the Gotham legal system after he catches them.

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Aye. If anything Batman fights to prop up a failing system.

Arguably there's a fundamental contradiction. If he used something other than fear as his primary tool, he could unite the day side and the night side of his work. What would hammer the crime bosses (both the mafia and the supervillains) would be to bring hope and empowerment to those who follow them, so that those of the criminal element who are redeemable will gradually make the right decision and leave that life, stop serving criminals, leaving only those who are beyond saving to be committed to Arkham or Blackgate. But through fear, he instead binds the criminals together, like in the Nolan Dark Knight movie. In their fear they were united and unleashed horrific forces that they may not have touched, if instead he had focused on breaking the power of someone like Carmine Falcone from the bottom up, from freeing the families of the Narrows stuck under his rule or freeing corrupt cops like Berg and Ramirez from the pressures that made them turn bad (like Berg's family medical bills), then the mafia power would have collapsed and they would not have had the drive to seek out the Joker.