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Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,658
Alcohol is destructive as is. Tobacco products are horrible for you in every way. Both are advised against by any rational person. Alcohol only persists because it's an expected social norm at this stage. I understand that the war on drugs is pretty much useless in helping addicts or stopping the trade, but I don't really understand the rationale that people should be morally free to destroy themselves. If anything we have obligations to people who care about us to live well and as best we can. IMO anyway. I suppose some hard drugs aren't as addictive and can be handled responsibly. I'm conflicted.
 

nayriee

Banned
Jan 26, 2019
160
People should be morally free to do whatever they want tbh.

Alcohol also isn't destructive in moderation.

So I'll keep my Absinthe and Rums going :)
 

JCHandsom

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
4,218
I mean I don't see anyone marching to legalize heroin or meth, so it doesn't seem like there's this huge push to legalize ALL drugs or anything
 

CrazyAndy

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,071
If anything we have obligations to people who care about us to live well and as best we can

No, we don't. And people should be able to live their lives however they see fit as long as they don't harm other people.
 

W-00

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,450
How, exactly, do you suggest we stop them from destroying themselves?
 

Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
Smoking in particular is so baffling to me. A legal and lucrative business with no positive effects at all. At least with alcohol or drugs you can feel happier, calmer, more hyped, and so on, the only positive effect of it is literally caused by the lack of nicotine in your body. It's crazy how it's still legal, though I understand why. The fact they are status symbols of some sort is damaging our society for sure, as it's seen as a cool thing to consume drugs, cigarettes, alcohol and so on. I hate fat shaming with all my might, but the upside is that people are pushed into trying to not be overweight. The negative perception around overweight people is a huge counter to the phenomenon. This doesn't happen enough with the rest, where smoking or drinking every other day is considered "cool". And yes, I had my fair share of drunk nights. I'd personally limit such substances even more, outright banning cigarettes and possibly even limiting alcohol rather than legalizing more drugs. I know that people who want to self-destruct can always find other solutions to do so, but I don't see why it should be made cheap and easy, if not even socially cool. But I understand the reasoning behind the legalizing, too.
 

Goldenroad

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,475
I don't get what you mean by "morally free"? How is that any different from just "free"? And what's wrong with freedom? So long as you're not hurting anyone else, do what makes you happy.
 

Masoyama

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,648
You can live and long and healthy live while at the same time getting fucked up on drugs.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,148
You like coffee/soda OP?
I mean, comparing soda/coffee to alcohol is a huge stretch. I'm a drinker btw. But alcohol abuse is the cause of many problems--dui, alcohol addiction, which is a physical addiction, alcohol poisoning, and so on. Soda and caffeine do not this.
 

Mcfrank

Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,219
What is the alternative? Making beer illegal and jailing people who drink it? You can't ban something I can make in my basement.
 

OrdinaryPrime

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,042
The issue is when someone is addicted we treat them like criminals instead of addicts. They are put in jail in order for rich people to profit off of them. You can argue the merits of legalizing more addicting substances like heroin and there's a discussion to be had there. But I think it's hard to argue that the people that are profiting off of addicts are immoral dbags.
 

chezzymann

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,042
People should be able to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. That being said, in my opinion smoking in public should be banned. Second hand smoke sucks.
 

Unducks

Member
Nov 4, 2017
84
It also doesn't make sense to ruin lives by putting people in prison over their substance use. This is a vastly complicated issue.

Humans have been using substances of all kinds for thousands of years. The existence and use of them is not really something that we can contend with. Trying to outlaw use has been completely counterproductive in our culture. Harm reduction is the best approach, and is what we seem to very gradually be moving toward.
 

BlackJace

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
5,452
How you live your life is of no concern to others if it doesn't infringe upon the rights of others. Vices pose no problems to others by themselves. It becomes a problem when people abuse their vices and end up negatively affecting themselves and others. THEN it becomes a concern.

  • Someone chilling at their house with a few beers watching Netflix is indulging in a "harmful" substance, but it is their own choice and a choice that isn't infringing on the freedoms of others.
  • Someone smoking a cigarette in a designated smoking zone is indulging in a "harmful" substance, but it is their own choice and a choice that isn't infringing on the freedoms of others.
  • Someone getting really high and watching Cosmos at their friend's house is indulging in a "harmful" substance, but it is their own choice and a choice that isn't infringing on the freedoms of others.

Basically, who are you to restrict those people from doing that?
 

TanookiTom

Member
Oct 29, 2017
686
Berlin
You can destroy yourself in an infinite number of ways, most of them perfectly legal. Some drugs just have been arbitrarily chosen to be banned, while others are considered perfectly fine.

Plus people take drugs anyways. The idea of legalizing them makes sense in many ways and could even help prevent more deaths/destruction caused by then, for example by monitoring and regulating drug sales, pushing back illegal druck trafficking and all its implications and allowing for safer drug use through testing and so on.
 

Dan Thunder

Member
Nov 2, 2017
14,062
Where do you draw the line? Things like saturated fats and processed sugars are bad for you and addictive so do you go around never having chocolate or a burger? Do you go around slapping food out of people's hands in the name of some sort of obligation to protect them? Something being addictive doesn't have to equate with a consumer being an addict.

TBH I'm not entirely sure what the point you're trying to make is? Are you saying you don't think people should have any any of these products or are you specifically referring to ones you personally think of as 'bad' addictions?
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,148
Fast food will kill more people than any drug could ever hope to.
People always say this but then you have some examples of those eating fast food diets for decades and making 90s.

Also fast food is too general. You can make a lot of fast food rather healthy if you know what you are doing--stay away from the fried stuff and sweets.
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,157
Gentrified Brooklyn
Alcohol is destructive as is. Tobacco products are horrible for you in every way. Both are advised against by any rational person. Alcohol only persists because it's an expected social norm at this stage. I understand that the war on drugs is pretty much useless in helping addicts or stopping the trade, but I don't really understand the rationale that people should be morally free to destroy themselves. If anything we have obligations to people who care about us to live well and as best we can. IMO anyway. I suppose some hard drugs aren't as addictive and can be handled responsibly. I'm conflicted.

So you're fine with the thousand that die because of prohibition of said drugs? I always find it funny how American news media points wags their finger at the chaos that is parts of Mexico, but absolves the fact that the US is the primary consumer of said drugs and ultimately responsible for the chaos.

My thing is that its a disease and until we figure out a way to treat it, there will always be a market. Ultimately the War on Drugs feels like trading a bunch of American lives (in theory) for a bunch of non-American lives (im gonna skip over the corporate welfare/racism part of it)
 
OP
OP
Zen

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,658
What is the alternative? Making beer illegal and jailing people who drink it? You can't ban something I can make in my basement.
For me it's the attitude more than the legal part of it. I would actually prefer hard drugs decriminalized/legalized to take away the main source of revenue for cartels. As for alcohol, I hope that it gets phased out of being seen as cool or symbolic of maturity, or as a social expectation. But it's persisted since ancient times, so that's kind of a pipe dream.
 

Grym

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,974
where does it stop though? Who sets the line?

Does the destructive force and potential for being addictive to a life destroying substance stop at heroin? meth? alcohol? tobacco? soda? energy drinks? coffee? candy? bacon?
 

Chixdiggit

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,447
Alcohol is destructive as is.
Alcohol only persists because it's an expected social norm at this stage.
I don't really understand the rationale that people should be morally free to destroy themselves.
It is completely possible and common to drink alcohol regularly without destroying yourself or others.
 

The BLJ

Member
Feb 2, 2019
698
France
People should be free to choose what is right, whatever that is. It's not the job of the government to announce what is the objective morality its citizens must strive for. Leave those issues to the realm of philosophy, religion, etc. I'm not in favor of authoritarian states or theocracies.

With that said, why do you think about addiction? Lots of people drink/smoke for the taste and the texture. Lots of people drink/smoke for the effects given by those substances, which is something distinct from addiction itself.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,432
You either let them or you lock them all up.

I know which I prefer.

Legalize it all with unlimited social services for addiction/substance abuse.
 

Chojin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,625
When you're 40 and smoking still you don't think you're "cool". You're addicted to a higjly addictive substance.
 

ShyMel

Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
3,483
If anything we have obligations to people who care about us to live well and as best we can.
It is hard to break an addiction and treatment options are not always available, be it because the person lacks insurance/money to pay for it or that there is no proper addiction treatment center in their area.
 

Scrooge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
633
I admit that if there was a switch one could flip that would magically eliminate all dangerous drugs, then I would probably flip it, but we don't live in that world. And I'd gladly give up social drinking if it meant people didn't die due to alcoholism or drunk driving, but again, that isn't how it works either.
 

BlackJace

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
5,452
For me it's the attitude more than the legal part of it. I would actually prefer hard drugs decriminalized/legalized to take away the main source of revenue for cartels. As for alcohol, I hope that it gets phased out of being seen as cool or symbolic of maturity, or as a social expectation. But it's persisted since ancient times, so that's kind of a pipe dream.

People who are actually adults don't actually think drinking is cool or a sign of maturity. That line of thinking gets (or should get) left behind in college. Our media definitely portrays negative stereotype of what's cool, absolutely, but the vast majority of adults who drink do so because they like to or use it as a social lubricant.
 
OP
OP
Zen

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,658
Hey, a lot of shit is addictive, tired as fuck at the "hoiler than thou" subset of Era. I know its more destructive, just trying to see how much of a monk the OP is.
I understand the defensiveness, so know that I'm not saying 'drugs are bad and you should feel bad'.
 

Extra Sauce

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,917
No offense but you sound a bit ignorant on the topic OP. People can live long and happy lives while enjoying alcohol in moderation (I say that as someone who doesn't drink). I have to ask, were you raised in a conservative family?
 

WedgeX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,200
Places that legalize drugs often do so with the mindset of harm reduction. That is, pairing legalization with an expansion of the social safety net including outreach by substance use specialists and increasing access and availability of treatment options.

In the US, the decades-long campaign to provide free support to quit tobacco was one example. It led to a serious decline in tobacco use among teens....up until Juul.
 
Oct 30, 2017
8,706
We always have to try to walk the fine line of:

-Treating abuse like a medical issue
-Developing and studying methods to help people quit
-Avoid ruining lives by criminalizing utilization
-Not stigmatizing usage so people will be forthcoming with their issues
-Not promoting usage of these substances
-Also criminalizing the large scale sale and distribution of these drugs.
 

neon_dream

Member
Dec 18, 2017
3,644
Deregulation comes with education and treatment.

You don't just deregulate drugs.

You decriminalize possession and at the same time you put all the "war on drugs" money into education, prevention, treatment, substance abuse counseling, and aid and outreach programs.

Simply deregulating drugs without any services would be a disaster, especially for at risk communities and youth.
 

Grym

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,974
People always say this but then you have some examples of those eating fast food diets for decades and making 90s.

Also fast food is too general. You can make a lot of fast food rather healthy if you know what you are doing--stay away from the fried stuff and sweets.

sure....and George Burns smoked and drank martinis and still lived to 100.
 

TheIlliterati

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,782
People should be allowed to do what they want to do as long as it doesn't harm others. They're going to do these things anyways. I'd rather focus on things that can actually be controlled instead of criminalizing the poor and addicted. If you use drugs and affect others, then you get in trouble.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,148
sure....and George Burns smoked and drank martinis and still lived until 100.
Another difference is that you need to eat to live, not necessarily the case for substances, outside of hardcore addiction obviously. I just never liked the fast food argument and I'm pro legalization for everything.

Food is incredibly complex and the factors are multivariate in how food affects humans. It's why we don't have a set scientifically approved diet that everyone can eat and thrive on equally.