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Sanctuary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,233
I assume you know that BotW is basically the opposite of Skyward Sword and Twilight Princess in every way? It was designed as a direct response to the criticisms of those games?

I can't stand most open world designs. In most cases it's just a very large open area where there's really not much of anything to do and you run, or ride long distances from point to point stumbling upon random groups of enemies or menial tasks. Open world for the sake of being open and not much else. The Besthesda games are some of the worst at this too. They typically make worlds I like traversing through, but they may as well be walking simulators since I'm always roaming through them to a destination hoping that there's something interesting at my destination, and there almost never is.

The general aesthetic of BOTW looked really nice, but preview after preview showed me that it was something I would quickly tire of, and once the weapon degradation was announced I noped the fuck out. I even have a neighbor who owns the game, and I've listened to him talk endlessly about it and I've watched him play it for a few hours. Hard pass.


Already mentioned. I couldn't even make it to the halfway point of that game it was so uninteresting to me, especially after the preceding games.
 
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Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
It's exceptionally rare to the point where it is basically not a thing, and I agree with what the OP is saying about mindset shifts usually being more important than basic time-grinding. (this is a major reason why I don't think 'git gud' is ever useful discussion for people having difficulty with a game)

There are games that get better with time or with components unlocked, and the absolute worst thing that I've seen is hack-n-slash/brawler games with moves that you have to grind or get past certain story beats to unlock. Those games wind up playing rather dully and stilted for a while, and it's because they don't give you access to the full depth of the game. Bayonetta sucked until I unlocked the panther form, and then it started actually 'feeling good' to play.
 

Pyro

God help us the mods are making weekend threads
Member
Jul 30, 2018
14,505
United States
Agreed. I think 1-2 hours is the most you can lend to a game to allow it to grab you.
 

FFNB

Associate Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,125
Los Angeles, CA
I disagree. Some games absolutely improve as you progress. It's also not a "defense" of a game. Like movies, books, and even television, some entertainment experiences take their time to set up characters, the world, the plot, but since games are interactive, there are times when setting up gameplay mechanics are necessary. I've definitely played my fair share of games in the past that overwhelm the player with mechanics right out of the gate, and I personally feel like those games burn out fast because they blow their proverbial load so quickly, or the systems are so complex so soon, that it's easy to forget x mechanic or y mechanic. Sometimes it's smart to ease a player into the mechanics, as well as a way to keep gameplay engaging with a "carrot on the stick" style approach. It really depends on the game and what it's trying to convey.

The inFAMOUS series did a really good job of meting out mechanics, letting the player have fun with the new powers, then dangling a new power/upgrade in front of them that fostered a "just another 30 minutes, then i'll stop playing" type of result.

While I can appreciate a God of War-esque epic start to a game, I'm also not against a slow burn. Sometimes, a game just doesn't click with a player until later on. One approach isn't better or worse than the other, and some games work well with either approach.

Day's Gone is a recent example of a game that I feel most definitely gets better as it progresses. Not just the narrative, but the gameplay progression as well. The first two or so hours are purposefully limited in what the player can do, and then it opens up shortly after, and they did a good job of tying weapons/abilities/locations into the narrative, so it made sense why your character isn't a walking arsenal at the start of the game.

Pacing is also something to consider when introducing new mechanics to the player. Sure, you can drop in all of the mechanics at once, but like I mentioned before, it can overwhelm the player to the point where they aren't even experiencing a fraction of the content you've produced, because they just stick to the mechanics that help them get from A to B, or give up in frustration when they encounter a scenario later on in the game that requires you to have had knowledge of y mechanic, that you totally told them about at the start of the game.

Being able to pace out progression/mechanics, is a solid way to ensure that the player is experiencing multiple things: 1) A smoother escalation of mechanics, especially if your game has a lot of complex systems. Giving them time to absorb and "master" one mechanic before being introduced to another.
2) The player is less inclined to burn out on your game and feel like it's "getting repetitive" because you're introducing newer mechanics/challenges/mission/level design to them at carefully considered intervals.

Number 2 is a lot harder to balance, because the threshold for player "boredom/interest" varies from person to person, so you work really hard to strike an acceptable balance. Same games do this well, some games don't.

Anyway, the tldr point is that the "it gets better at point 'x'" is totally a valid opinion to express. No different than when talking about a tv show that maybe starts off wonky for the first two or three episodes, but then gets its hooks in you at episode four and beyond.
 

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
It is a valid defense though. Some games pace the introduction of mechanics to avoid overwhelming the player, like Astral Chain. It's just a fact that the game opens up and becomes more satisfying to play after you can use sync attacks with your legions.

Many other games, like Dead Cells and Hollow Knight, for example, naturally improve as you collect more weapons / movement options / buffs.

If your time is at such a premium that you can't spend several hours on a game that could repay your investment with dozens of hours of fun, stop playing games. Go watch movies.
 

Radrigal

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
163
While I agree to a point, I think a big part of it still varies from person to person and from game to game. I much prefer the idea of the game finally "clicking" for you. But sometimes a game just never does, and I don't think anyone can properly define a specific point of the game finally "getting good" for anyone, because we all have different tastes and expectations.

I say this because I remember bouncing off of games super hard: Monster Hunter Freedom 2 on the PSP, and more recently Bloodborne as my first Fromsoft game. In MH I had to like restart from scratch like 3 times because it just wasn't doing it for me. Every animation was slow, from attacking to drinking a potion, monsters didn't have HP bars, there was no level-up mechanic, controls were a nightmare because there was no target lock-on or a second c-stick for the camera. It didn't get better for me, it got worse every restart. But then I tried a different weapon (specifically the longsword), and changed up how I played the game from other character action games, and it finally "clicked". I was still in the first stretch of the game (about 4-5 hours in) now for the 4th time. But suddenly everything felt right and comfortable. Finally I was having fun, and was getting excited of seeing the monsters I would be able to hunt now that I got past my wall.
 

Bumrush

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,770
If anyone ever said they didn't like White Orchard in TW3 I would absolutely say stick with it because that's the worst part of the game. I think that's definitely a valid statement to make.
 

Deleted member 3183

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,517
Virtually every time I see this argument, it's untrue. I hate it even after that mark. Hinterlands in Dragon Age Inquisition, that point in which the world opens up in FF XIII, whenever FF XV was supposed to get good, etc...
 

Dinoegg_96

Avenger
Nov 26, 2017
2,022
It is.

A game can start out as a boring mess and then pick up the pace at some point (be it in the form of gameplay/mechanics and/or story and characters).

I also disagree with your statement that first impressions color the entire experience. I've played games that I disliked at first, but ended loving. That doesn't mean the game is perfect, it just means that the positives highly outweighted the negatives and you are still free to criticize those things you didn't like.

If you're not enjoying a game, you're free to stop playing it.
 

Sanctuary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,233
It is a valid defense though. Some games pace the introduction of mechanics to avoid overwhelming the player, like Astral Chain. It's just a fact that the game opens up and becomes more satisfying to play after you can use sync attacks with your legions.

Many other games, like Dead Cells and Hollow Knight, for example, naturally improve as you collect more weapons / movement options / buffs.

This isn't what the OP is talking about though. Simply having less mechanics at the start doesn't intrinsically make a game less interesting when you first start playing it. For mechanically complex games, slowly doling out upgrades or moves can be the better approach anyway for retention and actually being able to more easily implement new options as they become available. With your Astral Chain example, the game already starts out good, and progression is often what keeps people playing until the end anyway since you aren't actually doing the exact same things you did from the very start, which can often become so routine and boring.
 

McScroggz

The Fallen
Jan 11, 2018
5,973
I kind of agree. Final Fantasy XIII is a classic example, to me at least, of how to do it poorly. The gameplay, leveling and party composition are frustratingly restrictive while the level and mission design is very linear and uninspired. Add in not much variety in other things to do to break up the pacing and a story and characters that just isn't good, and the process of getting to the part that is better is not worth the time investment. And in my opinion it's not like it gets so much better that it would justify it anyways.

Persona games are a good counter to this for me though. It takes legitimately probably 20 or so hours before the game feels like it's fibally taking its hands of the wheel but before then you still have some ability with how you spend your time and the game has an interesting cast and storyline plus a constant drip feed of new gameplay and other stuff to do that instead of feeling like I'm sloggin through a mire trying to get to the good part I'm playing something that is getting better and better the way a more traditional game would, just with the knowledge that at some point I'll have a lot more freedom.

Still, I totally understand those that don't like the time investment before a game gives you freedom or unlocks all/most of the gameplay abilities so it can be fully appreciated.
 

Oticon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,446
I somewhat agree with the OP but some of the best games I have ever played had rough starts. For example, I quit Dark Souls and Mass Effect multiple times because the starting was very boring to me but just a few hours in I got hooked.
 

Novocaine

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,946
I agree but with one exception and that's Nier Automata. Not that the game is bad at first it's just that it gets fuck loads better the further you get.
 

Gamer @ Heart

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,613
I can't stand most open world designs. In most cases it's just a very large open area where there's really not much of anything to do and you run, or ride long distances from point to point stumbling upon random groups of enemies or menial tasks. Open world for the sake of being open and not much else. The Besthesda games are some of the worst at this too. They typically make worlds I like traversing through, but they may as well be walking simulators since I'm always roaming through them to a destination hoping that there's something interesting at my destination, and there almost never is.

The general aesthetic of BOTW looked really nice, but preview after preview showed me that it was something I would quickly tire of, and once the weapon degradation was announced I noped the fuck out. I even have a neighbor who owns the game, and I've listened to him talk endlessly about it and I've watched him play it for a few hours. Hard pass.



Already mentioned. I couldn't even make it to the halfway point of that game it was so uninteresting to me, especially after the preceding games.

Wow. The third bug hunt when the world opens up to the temple of time is some of the most brilliant game design and pacing ever produced. You missed out
 

Sanctuary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,233
Wow. The third bug hunt when the world opens up to the temple of time is some of the most brilliant game design and pacing ever produced. You missed out

Oh well, I guess I'll miss out then. It has way too many negatives against it for me to even care. I know the kind of games I like, and weapon degradation does not make a game "challenging", it makes it annoying. At the same time, I don't want super simple combat with mostly easy encounters, nor do I want to have to endlessly roam around looking for those super simple encounters. Just because the game offers multiple ways to do things doesn't necessarily mean any of them are actually all that interesting.

Quite frankly, I'm sick of open world games, and have been for a long time now. Most of the games I've played that go from a more structured experience to one that's more open end up being a worse experience for me. Developers only have so much time and resources to develop a game, so of course open world games won't have the detail or honed options more curated ones do. They very often have a worse narrative on top of that, if there even is one.

edit: In before "but RDR2". There are exceptions, but they are outliers. Even then, the pacing is probably not that great even though the story is supposed to be strong.
 

J_ToSaveTheDay

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
18,837
USA
It's not a legitimate defense, but it's not entirely untruthful either. I don't think someone who says it in return is necessarily agreeing with certain parts being poor/poorly paced, I think they're just saying that it eventually hit a turning point and they were able to start to get into a comfortable and enjoyable groove with a game.

Yes, sometimes it IS slung as defense but I also don't think it's a statement that's necessarily untruthful and by extension invalid either. And I've had games absolutely fail to capture me beyond someone else's turning point, but I don't look back at any of those occasions and go "that person sure as fuck lied to me." I bet they didn't, I just wasn't compatible with the game after all and that's just how it goes sometimes.
 

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
This isn't what the OP is talking about though. Simply having less mechanics at the start doesn't intrinsically make a game less interesting when you first start playing it. For mechanically complex games, slowly doling out upgrades or moves can be the better approach anyway for retention and actually being able to more easily implement new options as they become available. With your Astral Chain example, the game already starts out good, and progression is often what keeps people playing until the end anyway since you aren't actually doing the exact same things you did from the very start, which can often become so routine and boring.
I brought up Astral Chain because I've seen a number of people talk about their issues with the combat in the early stages. Being a huge action game and Platinum fan, I myself felt that the combat system took a little too long to break free of the severe restrictions in the intro levels. It's not a major issue, just an annoyance.

Anyway, I don't have anything against progression in the form of doling out upgrades. What I don't like is being made to wait for the basics.
 

Sanctuary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,233
I brought up Astral Chain because I've seen a number of people talk about their issues with the combat in the early stages. Being a huge action game and Platinum fan, I myself felt that the combat system took a little too long to break free of the severe restrictions in the intro levels. It's not a major issue, just an annoyance.

I thought this was a concession for people that normally don't play Platinum styled games to make them more approachable, instead of alienating a larger crowd. For that purpose, I think it works well, even if that might seem like a bitter pill to Platinum diehards. I also don't really have a problem with it, unless this becomes Platinum's new status quo across all platforms. But anyway, I see your point.

I remember in some past thread this was the main accusation against Dragons Dogma.

This is actually the game I was referring to in a previous post about how a game could appear one thing and turn out better than expected. This was due to a really lousy demo though, and not really so much with the main game itself. The main game starts off with a relative bang anyway.
 
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wollywinka

Member
Feb 15, 2018
3,099
I take a similar approach to games as I do to movies. Some movies are slow burners, but if I'm 45 minutes into a 90-minute movie, and it still hasn't grabbed me, I call it quits. Even if the back half were to be a great improvement, as a whole, it would be average. Equally, a game that I have to slog through for a great Act 3 ain't worth the effort for me. Not every creative work hits the ground running (I love slow-paced world cinema), but there's a difference between pace and quality.
 

crazillo

Member
Apr 5, 2018
8,186
I agree. Though I feel there are many games that get repetitive in the middle, too. I think "don't waste my time" should be a good design philosophy for games. Instead, we often see more grinding, sometimes with pay-to-win shortcuts.

Final Fantasy XIV is a curious case. The base game is waaaaaaay too long. But I was playing with some close friends, talking and chit-chatting. This helps and can make the process bearable. I reached level 50 eventually. One day I'll jump into post-ARR content and see where all those 'it will get soooooooo good' posts come from.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
Agreed unless it's a story based game where the story is what makes the game shine, in those cases a game can absolutely get better at point X.