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Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,272
So as you may have seen the developers of Ooblets have, as a Brit might say, 'ballsed up' their PR and, in turn, a major part of their marketing; the developers (well, one developer, but the other isn't exactly doing nothing or even anything to stop any more damage) are and have been insulting their userbase, responding snarkily to otherwise innocent comments, and overall making a right royal mess of things. This, unfortunately, is not as rare an occurrence in the gaming industry as it really should be, and it's definitely more common here than in, say, the film industry or even the often-toxic drama-filled music industry.

But why is this the case? Well, you could say that it's just because gamers are inherently toxic, but I personally think it goes deeper than that. In my eyes, as someone who has actually studied business to a pretty high level, the gaming community simply does not place as much importance onto the 'business' side of the 'gaming business' as it really should. If it's not seen as something tertiary to the 'important' (i.e. technical) parts of game development then it's likely to be actively looked down upon as something that is inherently inferior or, worse, 'easier'. Let me explain by showing three key examples of quotes that I've heard before explaining what I think those quotes mean:

"Why should a game developer need to do PR?"

This was asked of me in the thread surrounding the whole Ooblets controversy. Now, I'm not here to rag on the person who asked that because I can fully see that it was a question made in complete honesty; that's not the issue here. The issue, to me, is that the gaming community is such that a question like that even had to be asked. Would one, for instance, ask why developers had to do art or music for their game? Would a developer such as the ones from Ooblets see those aspects of the game as so trivial that they could completely fuck them up and not see the issue? I highly doubt it, and that's despite the fact that, just like PR, they are just as tertiary to the actual 'game' part of game development.

And that leads on to the greater phenomenon here, and that's how PR, marketing, and other less 'defined' parts of business are most commonly seen as less important overall than they actually are in reality. It's something that manifests itself in many, many areas; the consistent confusion from 'hardcore gamers' shown towards Call of Duty's (and other games similar to it's) success and the subsequent fallacy of "well it must just be a good game, then," being a quite significant example. Another example is the rather heavy focus that people place on sales when it comes to debates on quality; if a controversial game gets high sales then the response is not "that's good news for all those who worked on the game!" it's "lol fuck the haters eat some croooowww."

"Why can't Reggie just be honest for once?"

Back when Reggie was the head of NoA a comment such as this would pretty much always be posted at least once whenever a thread was made about something he had said. Usually it would be in response to something rather innocuous that Reggie said but there would also be many times where it would simply be in response to an answer given by Reggie that the person themselves didn't personally agree with. The sentiment surrounding comments such as those, that PR should be 'honest' above all, is often shared whenever company spokespeople make comments that aim to avoid 'controversy'. It points to a greater trend in my eyes, and that's the idea that it's more acceptable to tell 'business people' how to do their jobs or how well they're doing their jobs ('lazy marketers' is something I've seen come up quite a few times) than it is for developers.

I know it's a touchy subject but when it comes to some of the recent controversies about developers saying their games aren't 'political' I find that the fact that the people making those comments are people with jobs, obligations, and responsibilities is often ignored. Is it a horribly unfortunate situation that big companies like that are forced to come across as politically neutral? Yes, 100%, but the people making those statements are simply doing the job they've been given and they're, in my eyes, just as worthy of empathy as any other person struggling at a lower level of 'the ladder'.

"The Epic Games Store is good because it's dismantling Steam's monopoly!"

Now I do not wish for this to be another Epic Games Store thread, but I felt that this was a great example of what I mean when I say that the 'business' of gaming is often shrouded in either ignorance or disdain. Jason Schreier, someone who has done a lot of good work when it comes to exposing bullshit practices and helping developers, used that as reasoning for why he felt that Epic Games' acquisition of numerous exclusives is a good thing. There's a good argument for why that's wrong on a consumer-level but on a business level it would, honestly, get a big fat 'cross' if it were given as an answer in even a high-school grade business paper. That's because a monopolistic company is one that has some level of exclusive access to a significant share of the market it's in (e.g. the internet companies in many places throughout America are monopolies); it is literally hold a monopoly if the only thing stopping other companies in your market from meeting or succeeding you is healthy competition. As such using the term in the context of Steam (which holds a significant share but no forced exclusivity) is fundamentally ignorant of what the term means in reality.

That might seem like pedantry, and in some ways it is, but to me it points to a greater lack of care throughout many parts of the non-business gaming industry when it comes to using terms from business and economics. To many people, including Schreier, the term "Monopoly" isn't a highly technical term with entire governmental departments aimed at avoiding unnecessary instances of it, it's a term that can be used for any business which has a majority share of the market no matter how they got there and no matter what the actual market is like. The assumption imo is that terms like that are 'just business' and is, therefore, something that 'anyone can do (or use)'; people just think that they know what they're talking about either because they don't know that they're wrong or that they believe 'business' is much less complicated than it actually is.

Final Remarks and Questions

Thank you for reading if you've got this far! I won't put a TL:DR for the entire thing but my main point is basically that I feel that the 'business' side of gaming is often viewed through either ignorant or cynical lenses when it is as important, if not more so, than the 'technical' side of gaming. I feel that discussions overall could be a lot better if we took this into account when it comes to discussions. Even if it's a simple case of "do I actually know what I'm talking about here?" or "am I hating on the wrong thing here?"

But anyway, to avoid this being just a rant have some questions. Please try and explain your reasoning behind your answers :)
- Do you agree with my points or not?
- Are there any other examples you can give that can add to mine?
- If you do agree, why do you think it's the case?
 
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Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,427
Chicago
Damn, good write up OP.

Wonder how many people will read it instead of shoot drive-bys at your title.
 
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ShadowAUS

Member
Feb 20, 2019
2,106
Australia
Good post OP. You're correct in that a lot of gamers, in fact I would be willing to be the vast majority think of the business and marketing side of the industry as a necessary evil that they would prefer to ignore thinking about the existence of. (I'm guilty of this at times as well.)

I think this mostly comes down to people especially when it comes to hobbies just want to enjoy the product/creation/object/whatever without thinking about the industry surrounding it as a whole - especially because I would argue that most people, gamers or not, that have no experience in business or marketing think of these fields as somewhat slimy, distasteful and as a said earlier, a necessary evil. This is all from my personal observations though, so I might be way off.
 

Ninja_Hawk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
913
There's is just a lot of ignorance in general. It hurts discussion when it comes to anything here. There is just an attitude a lot of people have, that drives down the potential for discourse on this forum (or anywhere on the internet?). People don't want to listen, they want to react. People need to carry themselves more maturely, not take things so personally or seriously, and use language that is conducive to having an actual discussion. But you're right and people love talking about things they don't understand. Businesses have to survive and conduct themselves in a way for their best interests, this isn't to be dismissive of issues, but it is something fundamental that will always exist. Especially, as the industry grows and costs rise, things become more complex. Sorry for the tangent.
 

Jamix012

Member
Oct 28, 2017
288
Honestly? I want to be civil about your OP, but your epic games write up REEKS of snobbery and (paraphrasing) "People don't know what a monopoly is and steam isn't technically a monopoly" is far more snobbish than any of the examples you're put in your post. I don't use EGS (or really PC gaming at all), but claiming that Steam doesn't have heavily monopolistic characteristics seems very divorced from reality. It's definitely a discussion with merit to whether that's actually the case, but DAMN you seriously hand waved it in your OP.
 
OP
OP
Plum

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,272
Damn, good right up OP.

Wonder how many people will read it instead of shoot drive-bys at your title.

Thanks!

And this thread ain't exactly taking off (not surprised lol, it's a wordy essay/rant about business) so hopefully very few. I'm open to disagreement but, yeah, hot takes and drive-bys aren't great.

Good post OP. You're correct in that a lot of gamers, in fact I would be willing to be the vast majority think of the business and marketing side of the industry as a necessary evil that they would prefer to ignore thinking about the existence of. (I'm guilty of this at times as well.)

I think this mostly comes down to people especially when it comes to hobbies just want to enjoy the product/creation/object/whatever without thinking about the industry surrounding it as a whole - especially because I would argue that most people, gamers or not, that have no experience in business or marketing think of these fields as somewhat slimy, distasteful and as a said earlier, a necessary evil. This is all from my personal observations though, so I might be way off.

Thanks! And I think you're quite spot-on there with the reasoning there. However I would disagree with the whole 'prefer to ignore' thing in a lot of circumstances (a lot of people clearly feel fine not ignoring it), though that's just me being pedantic :P
 

RedSparrows

Prophet of Regret
Member
Feb 22, 2019
6,475
Cannot fucking stand the casual way 'fans' dismiss hours of work as 'inept' or 'useless' or 'should get fired'. Sometimes, sure, there's a clusterfuck, or literal PR disaster due to shitty attitudes, or disappointing news.

But a lot of the time it's idiots talking about what they do not know, and by virtue of 'hey, I'm the consumer, and the customer is allllwaaaays right!!!' people can dismiss, scorn and essentially patronise people they have no fucking idea about. 0 thought or care or respect, but hey, feed me more, god damn it, FEED ME MORE.

Apologies, I have ranted when you sought to avoid ranting, but it really pisses me off.
 

ToddBonzalez

The Pyramids? That's nothing compared to RDR2
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,530
Yeah this discourse around this area of the industry is definitely lacking. Even on enthusiast forums and publications, as you say. Game companies are businesses at the end of the day. Obviously many devs take pride in their work and want to make something awesome, but the games need to be profitable products as well.
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
Honestly? I want to be civil about your OP, but your epic games write up REEKS of snobbery and (paraphrasing) "People don't know what a monopoly is and steam isn't technically a monopoly" is far more snobbish than any of the examples you're put in your post. I don't use EGS (or really PC gaming at all), but claiming that Steam doesn't have heavily monopolistic characteristics seems very divorced from reality. It's definitely a discussion with merit to whether that's actually the case, but DAMN you seriously hand waved it in your OP.
He handwaved it because it doesn't deserve a discussion since steam isn't a monopoly and anyone arguing it is hasn't given a good case on why it is.
 

Glass Arrows

Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,414
I agree with your general assertion that the business side of games isn't really given a lot of attention or thorough analysis, but I have a quibble with one of your examples:

I know it's a touchy subject but when it comes to some of the recent controversies about developers saying their games aren't 'political' I find that the fact that the people making those comments are people with jobs, obligations, and responsibilities is often ignored. Is it a horribly unfortunate situation that big companies like that are forced to come across as politically neutral? Yes, 100%, but the people making those statements are simply doing the job they've been given and they're, in my eyes, just as worthy of empathy as any other person struggling at a lower level of 'the ladder'.
I understand the reason WHY the company spokespeople feel the need to say these things, but in many cases they don't actually come across as politically neutral so much as extremely disingenuous. Like Yves Guillemot insisting that a Tom Clancy game of all things doesn't have anything political to say. Could you imagine if Bethesda and MachineGames had the same attitude about Wolfenstein?

Regardless of the reasons why, I'm not especially keen to give this a pass because it normalizes really harmful anti-intellectual attitudes and willful ignorance of game consumers where they don't actually think about the implications of the products they consume, and where "politics in games" only means "politics I disagree with".
 

Yossarian

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,262
Thanks for the write-up, OP.

The community does appear to rarely consider the business side of things. Can't deny that.

Not sure about this though:

The issue, to me, is that the gaming community is such that a question like that even had to be asked. Would one, for instance, ask why developers had to do art or music for their game?

You think PR is as important to a game as the art and music, or am I missing something?
 
OP
OP
Plum

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,272
Honestly? I want to be civil about your OP, but your epic games write up REEKS of snobbery and (paraphrasing) "People don't know what a monopoly is and steam isn't technically a monopoly" is far more snobbish than any of the examples you're put in your post. I don't use EGS (or really PC gaming at all), but claiming that Steam doesn't have heavily monopolistic characteristics seems very divorced from reality. It's definitely a discussion with merit to whether that's actually the case, but DAMN you seriously hand waved it in your OP.

I don't see it as snobbery to correct an incorrect usage of a term, especially when you then go on to misuse the term again by implying Steam has 'monopolistic characteristics' whilst not actually referring to what those characteristics are.

Think of it this way, if a prominent journalist had said "the lack of memory on the Switch is making it so that you can't store many games," then I wouldn't call someone a snob for saying that memory and storage space aren't the same thing, especially if that person had years of education on the subject. Why is it different for business?
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,466
Interesting topic.

I've yet to hear anyone, when wistfully proclaiming they want to work in games, specifically mean Marketing or PR or distribution or whatever. It's generally the creative side they're interested in, the creation of something glorious through art or design or coding. I think there's always likely to be this skewed perception where the worth of the gaming industry is assigned to the more 'glamorous' creative endeavours, not the bean counters or the marketeers or the PR guys; the 'back room' staff who just assist the main stars; I assume it's just not what most people aim for when trying to get into the gaming industry.

Add in the negative perceptions around marketing and PR being (erroneously or not) more or less synonymous with lying, manipulation, corporate greed, "Lies, Damn lies and PR" etc and the fact that they're not perceived to be difficult or specialist professions means there is a level of distain which leads to a dismissive attitude as to how much weight/worth they should be given in the process of creating and releasing a game.

Thus you get developers doing their own (terrible) PR, their own (terrible) marketing etc etc.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,617
I don't see it as snobbery to correct an incorrect usage of a term, especially when you then go on to misuse the term again by implying Steam has 'monopolistic characteristics' whilst not actually referring to what those characteristics are.
Idk, doesn't seem right to call Jason Schreier snobby/ignorant because he didn't use the dictionary definition of a monopoly.

He's very informed and speaks with a lot of developers and publishers about these things.
 
OP
OP
Plum

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,272
I understand the reason WHY the company spokespeople feel the need to say these things, but in many cases they don't actually come across as politically neutral so much as extremely disingenuous. Like Yves Guillemot insisting that a Tom Clancy game of all things doesn't have anything political to say. Regardless of the reasons why, I'm not especially keen to give this a pass because it normalizes really harmful anti-intellectual attitudes and willful ignorance of game consumers where they don't actually think about the implications of the products they consume, and where "politics in games" only means "politics I disagree with".

It's not giving it a pass in my eyes because those comments are still 100% disingenuous nonsense and I think it's fine to call them out as such. However I feel that often people miss the forest for the trees and target the person themselves instead of the fact that those comments are made in an incredibly flawed system where those in major companies such as Ubisoft feel that they 'have' to either be made or ignored (which, in an interview context, would say pretty much the exact same thing). You can disagree, of course, but in my eyes those comments aren't solely a personal failing of the specific people who made them but more an indication of our fucked up political situation where a game being 'political' is something that PR feels the need to shy away from.
You think PR is as important to a game as the art and music, or am I missing something?

It depends on what you include when you refer to 'the game'. If you only include the end product then of course PR isn't important to that, but if you view it as the product and the selling of said product then, yeah, I think it's incredible important.

Idk, doesn't seem right to call Jason Schreier snobby/ignorant because he didn't use the dictionary definition of a monopoly.

He's very informed and speaks with a lot of developers and publishers about these things.
One can be ignorant even if they're one of the best people in their own particular field; that's not a bad thing at all. Ignorance is simply the lack of knowledge, after all.

What's bad is when you can't or refuse to see that ignorance and decide to comment on something that you assume to understand. In this specific case I think that does stem at least a little bit from snobbery because I see instances of that happening a lot more from people who should know better when compared to comments on game development itself.
 

Sidebuster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,405
California
Idk, doesn't seem right to call Jason Schreier snobby/ignorant because he didn't use the dictionary definition of a monopoly.

He's very informed and speaks with a lot of developers and publishers about these things.
a dictionary definition is what we can all look to as a standard. If we don't have a standard understanding you just start making words mean whatever you want them to.
 

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,467
I think the business side of things is often viewed with disdain because the business side of game development often is what gets in the way of consumers getting, what they want.

Much of the failure to deliver on consumer expectations comes down to a cost-benefit analysis wherein the features or ports that players seem to want, just aren't worthwhile for the company. Then however the company chooses to explain that, it just gets picked apart by fans who honestly, don't have a clue.

For instance, the recent EA Switch debacle. EA say Switch ports are largely unworthwhile for them, because of overlapping consumers on other platforms. People on this forum, choose to pick this apart, saying that other game devs have made their ports financially viable, and that using data only from FIFA is very limited.

This argument, is purely ignorant. EA have much more data than just that of their own games, to make decisions as to whether porting their games is worthwhile, and the posters on that thread, neglected the very real impact of the overlapping costs. If a dev already has their game on XB1, PC and PS4, then how many Switch owners can't access their game elsewhere?

There's also some weird sense of entitlement, as posters choose to ignore EAs response, and suggest that the lack of ports is due to some conspiracy theory, or business-level fanboyism, causing EA to avoid the platform due to their own internal biases. These posters forget that EA don't need to answer these questions at all, they could simply say that they don't want to push their games onto more platforms, or they don't want their games on the Switch. You're not entitled to have EAs games on your platform, in the same way I wouldn't take to insulting an indy dev because they didn't want to bring their game to PS4.

I think the real flak that these big corps deserve should always relate to how they treat their employees. Companies like EA, Ubisoft, Rockstar, they're just not on the whole, nice places to work. That aforementioned cost-benefit analysis always comes down on employee working conditions and very few people are present to stand up for those folks. I think the business side of game development is unpleasant, and sometimes that purely financially driven mindset leads to unfortunate scenarios with ports and features wherein consumers don't get what they want. But not having a certain game on your platform, or having to buy the game on the wrong store is an almost meaningless consequence of that financially driven machine when compared to the hundreds of thousands of employees in the gaming industry that are simply, not treated like human beings.

I recently left my job to start something new. At my company, I felt like I was an employee first, and a human being second. A means to an end in a workflow pipeline, and little more. Employee personal circumstances that disrupt that workflow, such as sickness or mental health issues, are often looked upon as a problem for the financial cost/benefit, not with concern for those employees.

I think big game dev is broken and honestly, evil. But I don't think that missing out on the Sims 4 Switch port is a high priority problem.
 

Deleted member 32018

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 8, 2017
7,628
I don't see it as snobbery to correct an incorrect usage of a term, especially when you then go on to misuse the term again by implying Steam has 'monopolistic characteristics' whilst not actually referring to what those characteristics are.

Steam has some of the characteristics of a monopoly because it's the biggest player in the storefront world. If a developer wants their game to be on a platform with millions of users it would be steam. This is something Valve know and as such they can charge the developers a high price to be on their store because of the lack of comparable options.

You could argue that Valve deserve to be in this position because of the fact that they got to where they did through doing a good job and pretty much being the first to offer what it does. That doesn't detract from the fact that it holds great influence over the PC market and if people want to call it a monopoly, while wrong, I can see where they are coming from.
 

Jamix012

Member
Oct 28, 2017
288
I don't see it as snobbery to correct an incorrect usage of a term, especially when you then go on to misuse the term again by implying Steam has 'monopolistic characteristics' whilst not actually referring to what those characteristics are.

Think of it this way, if a prominent journalist had said "the lack of memory on the Switch is making it so that you can't store many games," then I wouldn't call someone a snob for saying that memory and storage space aren't the same thing, especially if that person had years of education on the subject. Why is it different for business?


Who exactly are you to say it's an "incorrect use" of such a term? This is why it's heavily snobbish. The memory example is not a good comparison at all, because I think everyone understands what is being said if "there is not enough memory" in the context you gave - whereas the difference here is basically to call out whether something should be changed and saying something is or isn't monopolistic you define the whole debate. In simpler terms if you're allowed to just say something isn't monopolistic that allows you to then remove all dissenters by telling them they don't understand and that they don't know what it means.

Let's actually talk about what a monopoly is - because I agree with you that it's a loose term, but that does not make it worthless. By definition you can say either almost everything is a monopoly or basically nothing is a monopoly. Quick example - if there's a food cart while I'm on a train selling Twix they literally have a monopoly on selling me Twix while I'm on that train - that said it would be ridiculous to insinuate that they are a monopoly for Twix bars. That scenario, though, does demonstrate the importance of "monopolistic practices" or "monopoly power", because they have some monopoly power, they are able to charge a large premium for the Twix.

This is why talking about Steam in terms of its "monopolistic practices" is important - because yes they're not a pure monopoly, but their size in the market gives them a great deal of monopoly power. The most oft talked of these is the 30% charged to devs, but it goes beyond that in ways that aren't really perceivable without a looking glass into an alternate reality where Steam faced serious competition. Would Steam have better sales, UI, Valve developed games and features if it had been challenged more in the PC realm? The answer you'll get from pretty much any economist is "yes", because it would have had to innovate more in the space when under the threat of competition. Not to say Monopolies don't, themselves, innovate (as Valve itself has shown), but the reason that Monopolies are bad is because it allows companies to rest on their laurels more, charge higher prices and take advantage of their business partners/consumers in ways they otherwise wouldn't in a competitive environment.


Steam has some of the characteristics of a monopoly because it's the biggest player in the storefront world. If a developer wants their game to be on a platform with millions of users it would be steam. This is something Valve know and as such they can charge the developers a high price to be on their store because of the lack of comparable options.

You could argue that Valve deserve to be in this position because of the fact that they got to where they did through doing a good job and pretty much being the first to offer what it does. That doesn't detract from the fact that it holds great influence over the PC market and if people want to call it a monopoly, while wrong, I can see where they are coming from.

Pretty much!
 

Yossarian

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,262
It depends on what you include when you refer to 'the game'. If you only include the end product then of course PR isn't important to that, but if you view it as the product and the selling of said product then, yeah, I think it's incredible important.

I'm thinking of this specific bit here as well (didn't want to quote the whole thing):

I highly doubt it, and that's despite the fact that, just like PR, they are just as tertiary to the actual 'game' part of game development.

Whichever reading you take, I'm not sure it's at all safe to say that art and music are 'just as tertiary' as PR to the 'actual "game" part'. With rare exceptions, they're very obviously leagues more important.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,617
About the need for PR, I feel like this forgets that a lot of indie devs can't really afford it.
Usually small teams with minuscule budgets if any (working for free on their spare time)

It's not as important as music, visuals, programming while making a game, just while selling one.
 

Malovis

Member
Oct 27, 2017
767
PR and marketing exist solely for the benefit of the company, i don't see why i as a consumer need to adopt a benign attitude toward it. Business can't have it's cake and eat it as well in terms of wanting consumers to have some moral obligation towards their practices, while at the same time making up constant bullshit be it in terms of pr, monetary practice or other things.
 

CobaltBlu

Member
Nov 29, 2017
813
Being the biggest player in a market isn't sufficient for a company to be a monopoly. Steam doesn't engage with the market in a way a monopoly does, they charged the industry standard cut for sales and even revised it to give a bigger share to high sellers, they haven't attempted to control the market or keep other vendors out, they haven't increased prices or been anti-consumer, etc. It's true that people can call Steam a monopoly if they want to, but the reason that comes off as being ignorant or dishonest is because Steam doesn't match the technical description of a monopoly at all.
 

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,427
Chicago
Thanks!

And this thread ain't exactly taking off (not surprised lol, it's a wordy essay/rant about business) so hopefully very few. I'm open to disagreement but, yeah, hot takes and drive-bys aren't great.



Thanks! And I think you're quite spot-on there with the reasoning there. However I would disagree with the whole 'prefer to ignore' thing in a lot of circumstances (a lot of people clearly feel fine not ignoring it), though that's just me being pedantic :P

Mobile ERA is so awful lol. Meant to type 'write'.

But yeah, I think some gamers take certain things way too personally and the Epic Games Store isn't an example of that but is a good example of how more can be bad in the sense when it doesn't help the business collectively.

I read your post twice to see if there were sentiments that I could legitimately argue against but I agree with most of them. I will, however, narrow in on the Reggie portion which I found pretty fascinating because gamers often like to bring up how ingenuine the guy seems. Yet you can never really say he's been bad at his job and that Nintendo hasn't been able to keep up its image all those years he was present. Through both highs and lows, you cannot argue that he wasn't at least consistent at his job or wasn't doing his job. Besides, not all of us have the freedom to be 'honest' at work-- that does not exist without consequences.

It's this very weird disconnect that I notice often. Even then, Reggie still has a legion of fans that embraced him while at Nintendo so it is not all bad. The Epic Game Store being good is more typical more is good babble, maybe if they reformed the goal behind the store but I don't think I remember Steam users complaining about there not being enough of a software market on PC lmao. Steam was fucking great... It really sucks to see PC become more like the console market slowly but surely as consoles try to emulate more of the luxuries of PC gaming. Weird times.
 
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saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
Personally speaking, i despise the business side of the gaming industry. No other entertainment industry is so predicated on deception, obfuscation, secrecy and this weird mix of complete disregard for its customers and employees, while at the same time aggressively catering to the loudest gatekeepers. It's by far the most corporate and inscrutable of them.

It's rare for a dev or a publisher to just come out and say the truth, on almost anything. It's always empty PR that treats its target subjects as complete idiots. I would have a lot more respect for the devs taking Epic's money if they simply stated the truth: for reasons of security and stability they decided to take the guaranteed money. There. Simple. Instead we get bullshit and nonsense. And in the case of the Ooblets dev, open mockery.

Industries tend to get the audience they cultivate. If you want an educated audience, educate them. Want people to understand the difficulties of game development? Show them. Want less toxicity in the game industry? Actively fight it instead of paying lip service to progressiveness and then shutting up when the gamergaters appear. There is a lot of shit to be thrown at capital G Gamers but this industry loves washing its hands clean of any responsibility.
 

headspawn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,605
Okay, so buying exclusives is more like what happens when you have a monopoly versus like 95% of the games and like 90% market share?
 

SomaXD

Member
Oct 27, 2017
786
Being the biggest player in a market isn't sufficient for a company to be a monopoly. Steam doesn't engage with the market in a way a monopoly does, they charged the industry standard cut for sales and even revised it to give a bigger share to high sellers, they haven't attempted to control the market or keep other vendors out, they haven't increased prices or been anti-consumer, etc. It's true that people can call Steam a monopoly if they want to, but the reason that comes off as being ignorant or dishonest is because Steam doesn't match the technical description of a monopoly at all.

Im not huge into pc gaming, but where else can you buy digital copies of a game without needing steam? Like 1 other place? Can i buy a game from their store and play without having to download a client? Do all digital versions of games from all sources work with their client? What about physical copies? Do they need steam?

Seems like a technical monopoly to me.
 

ShadowAUS

Member
Feb 20, 2019
2,106
Australia
Im not huge into pc gaming, but where else can you buy digital copies of a game without needing steam? Like 1 other place? Can i buy a game from their store and play without having to download a client? Do all digital versions of games from all sources work with their client? What about physical copies? Do they need steam?

Seems like a technical monopoly to me.
1. Off the of my head the stores/platforms completely divorced from Steam are - Origin, uPlay, EGS, Discord, GoG, Microsoft Store, Bethesda, Battle.net plus a couple of others that I know I'm forgetting.

2. Yes, there are DRM free games on steam that don't require the client to run.

3. Yes and no. There are plenty of stores outside of the ones I listed that sell Steam keys officially like HumbleBundle (who also sell DRM free games), Green Man Gaming, Fanatical, Nuuvem and many others but generally if you purchase a game from a different platform like uPlay then it will not natively integrate into Steam though you can manually add games to Steam though they don't get access to all the features.

4. Most physical PC games these days are just discs with their respective platforms installer and some data on it, whether that's Steam, uPlay, Origin etc etc. Though it's becoming more common to just get a cardboard disk or card with a game key on it and no physical media at all. A lot of older PC games can be activated on Steam though which is a nice feature.
 
OP
OP
Plum

Plum

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May 31, 2018
17,272
Sorry for so many quotes in a single post!

Steam has some of the characteristics of a monopoly because it's the biggest player in the storefront world. If a developer wants their game to be on a platform with millions of users it would be steam. This is something Valve know and as such they can charge the developers a high price to be on their store because of the lack of comparable options.

You could argue that Valve deserve to be in this position because of the fact that they got to where they did through doing a good job and pretty much being the first to offer what it does. That doesn't detract from the fact that it holds great influence over the PC market and if people want to call it a monopoly, while wrong, I can see where they are coming from.

Every monopolistic company is the biggest player in their market, but not every biggest player in their market is a monopolistic company. A monopoly, by definition, requires a firm to actively restrict the supply of a good or service in a way that negatively impacts competition.

Who exactly are you to say it's an "incorrect use" of such a term? This is why it's heavily snobbish. The memory example is not a good comparison at all, because I think everyone understands what is being said if "there is not enough memory" in the context you gave - whereas the difference here is basically to call out whether something should be changed and saying something is or isn't monopolistic you define the whole debate. In simpler terms if you're allowed to just say something isn't monopolistic that allows you to then remove all dissenters by telling them they don't understand and that they don't know what it means.

Let's actually talk about what a monopoly is - because I agree with you that it's a loose term, but that does not make it worthless. By definition you can say either almost everything is a monopoly or basically nothing is a monopoly. Quick example - if there's a food cart while I'm on a train selling Twix they literally have a monopoly on selling me Twix while I'm on that train - that said it would be ridiculous to insinuate that they are a monopoly for Twix bars. That scenario, though, does demonstrate the importance of "monopolistic practices" or "monopoly power", because they have some monopoly power, they are able to charge a large premium for the Twix.

This is why talking about Steam in terms of its "monopolistic practices" is important - because yes they're not a pure monopoly, but their size in the market gives them a great deal of monopoly power. The most oft talked of these is the 30% charged to devs, but it goes beyond that in ways that aren't really perceivable without a looking glass into an alternate reality where Steam faced serious competition. Would Steam have better sales, UI, Valve developed games and features if it had been challenged more in the PC realm? The answer you'll get from pretty much any economist is "yes", because it would have had to innovate more in the space when under the threat of competition. Not to say Monopolies don't, themselves, innovate (as Valve itself has shown), but the reason that Monopolies are bad is because it allows companies to rest on their laurels more, charge higher prices and take advantage of their business partners/consumers in ways they otherwise wouldn't in a competitive environment.

I've spent years studying business and have just received a degree from a reputable university on the subject. That you see me using the knowledge that I've worked hard to gain as 'snobbery' before going on to explain why said knowledge is wrong using wrong information yourself says a lot more about you than it does me.

The truth of the matter is that a monopoly is not simply "a company that has a higher business share," and monopolistic practices are not "using business clout to get a better deal from suppliers." Ask any person educated in business or even anyone who did business in school and they will give you the same answer. That shouldn't be seen as snobbery unless you personally deem 'business' to be less worthy of defined agreed-upon terms created by academics and professionals as STEM subjects such as game design.

I'm thinking of this specific bit here as well (didn't want to quote the whole thing):

Whichever reading you take, I'm not sure it's at all safe to say that art and music are 'just as tertiary' as PR to the 'actual "game" part'. With rare exceptions, they're very obviously leagues more important.

I suppose my wording was a bit wrong there because, yeah, you are right. I suppose I should have said that music and art aren't necessary for the basic functioning of the game; they are very much 'set dressing' that does not 100% 'need' to be there.

Personally speaking, i despise the business side of the gaming industry. No other entertainment industry is so predicated on deception, obfuscation, secrecy and this weird mix of complete disregard for its customers and employees, while at the same time aggressively catering to the loudest gatekeepers. It's by far the most corporate and inscrutable of them.

It's rare for a dev or a publisher to just come out and say the truth, on almost anything. It's always empty PR that treats its target subjects as complete idiots. I would have a lot more respect for the devs taking Epic's money if they simply stated the truth: for reasons of security and stability they decided to take the guaranteed money. There. Simple. Instead we get bullshit and nonsense. And in the case of the Ooblets dev, open mockery.

Industries tend to get the audience they cultivate. If you want an educated audience, educate them. Want people to understand the difficulties of game development? Show them. Want less toxicity in the game industry? Actively fight it instead of paying lip service to progressiveness and then shutting up when the gamergaters appear. There is a lot of shit to be thrown at capital G Gamers but this industry loves washing its hands clean of any responsibility.

Im not huge into pc gaming, but where else can you buy digital copies of a game without needing steam? Like 1 other place? Can i buy a game from their store and play without having to download a client? Do all digital versions of games from all sources work with their client? What about physical copies? Do they need steam?

Seems like a technical monopoly to me.

None of those are what create a monopoly because monopolies have to restrict the supply in such a way that other companies cannot compete. That, right now, is simply not the case as is shown by the relative success of other storefronts (Origin, Battlenet, EGS, etc) and the competition provided by (legitimate) key re-sellers.
Personally speaking, i despise the business side of the gaming industry. No other entertainment industry is so predicated on deception, obfuscation, secrecy and this weird mix of complete disregard for its customers and employees, while at the same time aggressively catering to the loudest gatekeepers. It's by far the most corporate and inscrutable of them.

It's rare for a dev or a publisher to just come out and say the truth, on almost anything. It's always empty PR that treats its target subjects as complete idiots. I would have a lot more respect for the devs taking Epic's money if they simply stated the truth: for reasons of security and stability they decided to take the guaranteed money. There. Simple. Instead we get bullshit and nonsense. And in the case of the Ooblets dev, open mockery.

Industries tend to get the audience they cultivate. If you want an educated audience, educate them. Want people to understand the difficulties of game development? Show them. Want less toxicity in the game industry? Actively fight it instead of paying lip service to progressiveness and then shutting up when the gamergaters appear. There is a lot of shit to be thrown at capital G Gamers but this industry loves washing its hands clean of any responsibility.
I think the business side of things is often viewed with disdain because the business side of game development often is what gets in the way of consumers getting, what they want.

Much of the failure to deliver on consumer expectations comes down to a cost-benefit analysis wherein the features or ports that players seem to want, just aren't worthwhile for the company. Then however the company chooses to explain that, it just gets picked apart by fans who honestly, don't have a clue.

For instance, the recent EA Switch debacle. EA say Switch ports are largely unworthwhile for them, because of overlapping consumers on other platforms. People on this forum, choose to pick this apart, saying that other game devs have made their ports financially viable, and that using data only from FIFA is very limited.

This argument, is purely ignorant. EA have much more data than just that of their own games, to make decisions as to whether porting their games is worthwhile, and the posters on that thread, neglected the very real impact of the overlapping costs. If a dev already has their game on XB1, PC and PS4, then how many Switch owners can't access their game elsewhere?

There's also some weird sense of entitlement, as posters choose to ignore EAs response, and suggest that the lack of ports is due to some conspiracy theory, or business-level fanboyism, causing EA to avoid the platform due to their own internal biases. These posters forget that EA don't need to answer these questions at all, they could simply say that they don't want to push their games onto more platforms, or they don't want their games on the Switch. You're not entitled to have EAs games on your platform, in the same way I wouldn't take to insulting an indy dev because they didn't want to bring their game to PS4.

I think the real flak that these big corps deserve should always relate to how they treat their employees. Companies like EA, Ubisoft, Rockstar, they're just not on the whole, nice places to work. That aforementioned cost-benefit analysis always comes down on employee working conditions and very few people are present to stand up for those folks. I think the business side of game development is unpleasant, and sometimes that purely financially driven mindset leads to unfortunate scenarios with ports and features wherein consumers don't get what they want. But not having a certain game on your platform, or having to buy the game on the wrong store is an almost meaningless consequence of that financially driven machine when compared to the hundreds of thousands of employees in the gaming industry that are simply, not treated like human beings.

I recently left my job to start something new. At my company, I felt like I was an employee first, and a human being second. A means to an end in a workflow pipeline, and little more. Employee personal circumstances that disrupt that workflow, such as sickness or mental health issues, are often looked upon as a problem for the financial cost/benefit, not with concern for those employees.

I think big game dev is broken and honestly, evil. But I don't think that missing out on the Sims 4 Switch port is a high priority problem.
Mobile ERA is so awful lol. Meant to type 'write'.

But yeah, I think some gamers take certain things way too personally and the Epic Games Store isn't an example of that but is a good example of how more can be bad in the sense when it doesn't help the business collectively.

I read your post twice to see if there were sentiments that I could legitimately argue against but I agree with most of them. I will, however, narrow in on the Reggie portion which I found pretty fascinating because gamers often like to bring up how ingenuine the guy seems. Yet you can never really say he's been bad at his job and that Nintendo hasn't been able to keep up its image all those years he was present. Through both highs and lows, you cannot argue that he wasn't at least consistent at his job or wasn't doing his job. Besides, not all of us have the freedom to be 'honest' at work-- that does not exist without consequences.

It's this very weird disconnect that I notice often. Even then, Reggie still has a legion of fans that embraced him while at Nintendo so it is not all bad. The Epic Game Store being good is more typical more is good babble, maybe if they reformed the goal behind the store but I don't think I remember Steam users complaining about there not being enough of a software market on PC lmao. Steam was fucking great... It really sucks to see PC become more like the console market slowly but surely as consoles try to emulate more of the luxuries of PC gaming. Weird times.

I'm grouping these quotes together because they all touch upon a key distinction that I feel needs to be made here: that is the distinction between business actions and business as a concept. I can 100% see why one would hold disdain for the actions of the gaming industry, but what I can't understand is the idea that those actions should be projected onto the very idea of business itself throughout the industry because, in reality, business is purely an objective set of circumstances that has to be taken into account for practically every single economic action in the modern world.

For instance, the disconnect between Reggie's supposed 'ingenuine' nature came a lot from the idea that people think Reggie was saying those words instead of Reggie Fils Aime - CEO of Nintendo of America. It's definitely a hard distinction to make but it's one that every business-person, even those at the very top (maybe especially those people), need to realise; sometimes (well, most of the time) what is 'most honest' for yourself is not exactly what is 'most honest' for you as an employee/owner of a specific company.

Similarly the Ooblets controversy that aenima mentions is not a problem with 'the gaming business', it's simply an example of very bad business created by two people who themselves didn't give PR the merit it deserves.
This was an interesting read, OP, thank you for writing it.

Thanks! :)

About the need for PR, I feel like this forgets that a lot of indie devs can't really afford it.
Usually small teams with minuscule budgets if any (working for free on their spare time)

It's not as important as music, visuals, programming while making a game, just while selling one.

Whether indie devs can afford it or not doesn't matter because, by choosing to sell a product, they have to do it whether or not they actually can do it, and in that way PR is just as important as music, visuals, programming, etc in the list of things that one cannot ignore if they want to create a video-game for other people to buy.
 

Deleted member 32018

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Every monopolistic company is the biggest player in their market, but not every biggest player in their market is a monopolistic company. A monopoly, by definition, requires a firm to actively restrict the supply of a good or service in a way that negatively impacts competition.

And I never said that Steam was, in fact I said the opposite. It still doesn't change that Steam can influence the industry with it's power and probably has done so behind the scenes without consumers knowing. This is why I won't get annoyed with people not using the perfect dictionary definition of a monopoly because I understand what they mean.
 

Dekuman

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Oct 27, 2017
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That's a lot to process, but I don't think people should be expected to shill for corporations ,especially when it comes to exploitative business practices where the rationale is not about being unprofitable vs proftiable but a very high rate of return vs. a lower one.

That said, when people comment about/talk down to regional and marketing presidents ,(ie: Reggie heads NOA but NOA mostly just markets and distributes and sells Nintendo products) there is a disconnect there. They view their relationship for the corporation as a continuous process and all the company as monolithic. So to them, any comments coming out of Reggie's mouth is 100% vetted and approved from the headquarters back in Japan (which may or may not be the case) and that Reggie is either clueless (unlikely) or malicious when he is evasive about things he can't talk about.

Chances are he knows exactly what he needs to know and can't share certain details, but to some gamers, that's tantamount to a slap in the face of their fandom.
 
OP
OP
Plum

Plum

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May 31, 2018
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And I never said that Steam was, in fact I said the opposite. It still doesn't change that Steam can influence the industry with it's power and probably has done so behind the scenes without consumers knowing. This is why I won't get annoyed with people not using the perfect dictionary definition of a monopoly because I understand what they mean.

That's the thing, why is it that business terms are defined by "whatever the population thinks they mean," instead of the people actually qualified to define them? Steam is, by definition, not a monopoly, and it shouldn't be the case that the definition itself should change because people believe that researching said definition is below them. It would be like saying we should change the meaning of 'a socialist country' because a significant number of Americans both prominent and not do not know and don't want to know what socialism actually is.

That's a lot to process, but I don't think people should be expected to shill for corporations ,especially when it comes to exploitative business practices where the rationale is not about being unprofitable vs proftiable but a very high rate of return vs. a lower one.

That said, when people comment about/talk down to regional and marketing presidents ,(ie: Reggie heads NOA but NOA mostly just markets and distributes and sells Nintendo products) there is a disconnect there. They view their relationship for the corporation as a continuous process and all the company as monolithic. So to them, any comments coming out of Reggie's mouth is 100% vetted and approved from the headquarters back in Japan (which may or may not be the case) and that Reggie is either clueless (unlikely) or malicious when he is evasive about things he can't talk about.

Chances are he knows exactly what he needs to know and can't share certain details, but to some gamers, that's tantamount to a slap in the face of their fandom.

Nobody should be expected to shill for corporations, but I think they should be expected to see corporations as groups of people doing what they feel is right (whether that's a good or bad thing) instead of a group of 'lesser people' that can be dictated to.
 

Teeth

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Nov 4, 2017
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Nobody should be expected to shill for corporations, but I think they should be expected to see corporations as groups of people doing what they feel is right (whether that's a good or bad thing) instead of a group of 'lesser people' that can be dictated to.

I mean, good luck with this. Pretty much by definition anyone who disagrees with someone else thinks of them as lesser in ethics, intelligence, acumen, or whatever.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
The best business point that people consistently refuse to understand, and/or are very ignorant of: how licensing and legacy content rights can make game (re)releases more complicated. People in here seem to have the mentality that there's nothing that should stop a company from releasing legacy content and then forget that a game is made of multiple components. For instance, voice acting and soundtracks can sometimes require negotiation for rerelease due to licensing for use.

Or how someone else's intellectual property that's referenced in the game can cause even more roadblocks, due to the lack of future proofing during original development. Instead of understanding the nuances of licensing, people generally devolve into "BBBUT RELEASE IT!!1!1!"
 

TheRuralJuror

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Oct 25, 2017
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And I never said that Steam was, in fact I said the opposite. It still doesn't change that Steam can influence the industry with it's power and probably has done so behind the scenes without consumers knowing. This is why I won't get annoyed with people not using the perfect dictionary definition of a monopoly because I understand what they mean.

I'm not sure why you'd argue for an ignorant misuse of a word just because you know what others mean. Words have meanings and definition. Those definitions don't change because you personally think you know what others mean. With so many throwing the word around, who can even say what some mean exactly? Most probably don't really know what a monopoly is. It's a poor standard to set imo, especially when so many use it incorrectly for various situations.
 

chrisypoo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,457
Excellent write up OP. My degree is in Business Administration and Human Resource Management, and it's refreshing to see someone discussing business in a way that's not blatantly insulting for once. I don't know why it's accepted on this forum to make inflammatory blanket statements about HR and business professionals so often when you'll get banned for making even the slightest jab at devs; the double standard there is extremely apparent. I think people often forget that their precious games would never get the funding to even get development greenlit in most cases without guys like us administrating the proceedings and organizing the project, but no, we're all just evil corporate stooges who think of nothing but money and apparently lack human emotions .....

Thanks again OP, great stuff.
 

Deleted member 32018

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I'm not sure why you'd argue for an ignorant misuse of a word just because you know what others mean. Words have meanings and definition. Those definitions don't change because you personally know what others mean. It's a poor standard to set imo.

I'm not arguing for I'm saying I understand why it happens, sorry for trying to see from the other side. Something this forum doesn't do often enough.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,060
Does a dev being snarky really count as "toxic"
I know gamers are in love with that word but still
 

nsilvias

Member
Oct 25, 2017
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yeah, more and more ive noticed that in the gaming community we like to take words and redefine them. like remaster, monopoly, broken, etc. its irritating
 
OP
OP
Plum

Plum

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May 31, 2018
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The best business point that people consistently refuse to understand, and/or are very ignorant of: how licensing and legacy content rights can make game (re)releases more complicated. People in here seem to have the mentality that there's nothing that should stop a company from releasing legacy content and then forget that a game is made of multiple components. For instance, voice acting and soundtracks can sometimes require negotiation for rerelease due to licensing for use.

Or how someone else's intellectual property that's referenced in the game can cause even more roadblocks, due to the lack of future proofing during original development. Instead of understanding the nuances of licensing, people generally devolve into "BBBUT RELEASE IT!!1!1!"

I definitely agree with you there, but I'd also add that the lack of game preservation/re-releases isn't completely criticism-free because of those reasons. The gaming industry tends to heavily favour short-term contracts when compared to other mediums such as TV and especially film and that, to me, is something that should be called out.

Excellent write up OP. My degree is in Business Administration and Human Resource Management, and it's refreshing to see someone discussing business in a way that's not blatantly insulting for once. I don't know why it's accepted on this forum to make inflammatory blanket statements about HR and business professionals so often when you'll get banned for making even the slightest jab at devs; the double standard there is extremely apparent. I think people often forget that their precious games would never get the funding to even get development greenlit in most cases without guys like us administrating the proceedings and organizing the project, but no, we're all just evil corporate stooges who think of nothing but money and apparently lack human emotions .....

Thanks again OP, great stuff.

Thanks! I think part of it is the notion that many people have that those in business are mostly those who 'don't deserve' their jobs. That's definitely true for a lot of people in the business world but it's definitely not true for a lot more, and I think people tend to get those groups mixed up and, more egregiously, shape their actions based on those prejudices.

Does a dev being snarky really count as "toxic"
I know gamers are in love with that word but still

That isn't relevant to the point of the thread.
 

Walnut

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Nov 2, 2017
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This thread won't get much traction because it has a lot of words and is on a topic most of this forum doesn't *really* care about but I for one appreciate the effort you put into this thread OP. I hope some of my fellow Era posters can learn something from it
 

saenima

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Oct 25, 2017
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Similarly the Ooblets controversy that aenima mentions is not a problem with 'the gaming business', it's simply an example of very bad business created by two people who themselves didn't give PR the merit it deserves.

You're right, they're two distinct issues. I was just kinda ranting, as i often do. What i do believe that PR kerfuffle is symptomatic of is an ill disguised contempt that many people in the industry show toward their audience both on business decisions and on social media. As the latest example, this whole Epic debacle has been a goldmine of actions, declarations and omissions that exemplify just that. At no point does customer satisfaction factor into these decisions beyond backlash managing.

Now, despite businesses having every legal right to look out for themselves and only themselves, the customer has just the same right. Complaining about corporate decisions and demanding better is not entitlement, it's customers defending their interests. As long as no reasonable lines are crossed, corporations get no sympathy from me here. Large or small.
 

Deleted member 48897

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I am about to head out and so won't be able to give this topic the level of attention it deserves but I believe wholeheartedly than any discussion of the "business side" that abstracts away the notion of labor is missing the forest for the trees.

All notions of a "business side" should be in the service of supporting labor; that it is does not is exactly why I am an opponent of capitalism.
 

7thFloor

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Oct 27, 2017
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Thank you for making this thread, it's very frustrating when ignorant people grab technical words like "monopoly" and twist their meaning to fit their stance or argument, or when reductionist statements are made about complicated phenomena or theory. Any studied person is naturally going to face that sort of frustration, it really does suck.
 

Window

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Oct 27, 2017
8,282
I disagree with your assessment of exclusivity implying a monopoly. In economic terms, a monopoly is a market where the supplier has control over the market price or the market quantity of the good/service. This would typically be the case when there's a sole producer but that also doesn't have to be necessarily true, as a large market share relative to other competitors maybe sufficient as well. Many developers have questioned the fairness of Steam's revenue share rate but as there's no credible competitor to Steam, Valve essentially gets to set that price. This is in the market of gaming platforms where game creators are consumers and Valve is the supplier.

Exclusivity also needs to be considered in the proper context. Exclusive dealing is typically against competition law but is also typically allowed if it does not lessen competition in the market. Epic much like console manufacturers is using exclusive games as a differentiator to promote their product which in this case may not be see as lessening competition. Now what's not right I suppose is Epic actually straight up buying exclusive rights to games which would have otherwise featured on both platforms which is a move that actually does damage consumers. If they were funding exclusive games from their inception which would not have been produced if not for their intervention then it would be a more acceptable practice.

Oh and since qualifications seem to matter a lot in this thread to lend any credibility to arguments, I have an economics degree and an engineering degree.
 
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Jamix012

Member
Oct 28, 2017
288
I've spent years studying business and have just received a degree from a reputable university on the subject. That you see me using the knowledge that I've worked hard to gain as 'snobbery' before going on to explain why said knowledge is wrong using wrong information yourself says a lot more about you than it does me.

You're on the internet. There will be people who know more than you. Genuinely not trying to start a fight here - but your way of talking down to others on a subject you have some knowledge of is pretty snobbish.

I'll go ahead and do what I just recommended against and be a bit snobby. I too have a degree - an economics one. It also happens to be from a university that is world renowned. I'm not a business advisor, but I earn a comfortable life doing work related to the equity markets. I'd say - at best - you're as informed on the topic of business as i am.

Even so - You and I are not some sort of authority on these issues, and while your takes may have a little more weight because of your qualifications you come off pretty poorly when you completely disregard others because you think you know better.
 
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Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,010
The way marketing is spoken about in some threads you think it was a bunch of satan-spawned witches cackling in a tower. A definite irk of mine on this forum. Good OP Plum