saying that Gwen Stacy was even written is being extremely generous
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I hate Raimis Mary Jane so much
- Thread starter sawatsu
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saying that Gwen Stacy was even written is being extremely generous
A) A film's purpose is not to world build, it's to develop characters. You can have all the great world building you like, but if your characters and story are lacking then the world building was moot. See the Star Wars Prequels.
B) Liz was absolutely Peter's LI in Homecoming, she's one of his primary motivators for doing things in the film. The end of the movie is him choosing not to dance with her at Homecoming and instead stopping her father and this is seen as a "hard" choice. She is his main love interest in the film, that really ca't be argued.
C) She has no agency. Her "being capable" is not agency. She exists to flirt with Peter, that's it. There's no plotline involving her escaping her abusive father and trying to make it as an actor in the big city while dating a affluent friend from school who has provided her with the first real kind of financial and emotional stability in her life but who she does not truly have the same feeling towards. Liz exists to serve Peter in Homecoming. MJ exists on her own in Raimi.
Nah, I liked MJ (esp in 1 and 2 of the Raimi trilogy, and now in the PS4 game) and I think the hate she gets sometimes is overblown. In the Raimi movies, I liked that she had some depth that's completely separate from Peter — like how she grew up in a pretty unhappy household, and how that's contributed to her insecurities, or how she aspires to be an actress.
Her red hair in the first movie was so pretty though. I wish she'd kept it for all of them.
Spider-Man 3 has its problems with the melodrama and stuff but that was kind of an issue for all the characters across the board.
Her red hair in the first movie was so pretty though. I wish she'd kept it for all of them.
Spider-Man 3 has its problems with the melodrama and stuff but that was kind of an issue for all the characters across the board.
Liz didn't have agency because you only see her when Peter is around. You don't follow her, and her story is dependent on Peter. That's not agency. What does Liz do on screen that shows she has agency? Throws a party where the story centers it around Peter showing up to prove he knows Spider-Man? She is a capable team lead who leans on Peter to win? Does a late night swim at the pool to invite Peter to participate because HE needs to have fun? Tells Peter at the end that he should figure out his shit? She is designed to prop Peter up.
MJ was cute and said lines that resonated with the audience. It isn't fine because then the message of the story weaves through one character, and that makes side characters purely story pushers.
There is a reason why SM1 and 2 are valued so much because Raimi knew side characters need to embody the message he was telling just like Spider-Man. They all had to give up what they wanted the most.
Sometimes I get the feeling that all this worship for Homecomeing has more to do with being a newer movie than with it's own merits.
I did not like Reimi's MJ either. She was a damsel in distress way too many times.
And I really like Spiderman 2...
Sometimes I get the feeling that all the worship for Spiderman 2 has more to with rose tinted glasses.
And I really like Spiderman 2...
This is a really good point. Hot Aunt May was an especially weird direction. She is constantly objectified throughout the movie.
I love Tom Holland as Spiderman, and enjoyed Homecoming, but a lot of the 80's teen romance tropes the movie borrowed are not exactly forward thinking.
It has a lot to do with the movie itself being pretty solid, having a good cast, a good villain, and also being the only good Spider-Man movie in the last 14 years.
Here's a defense of Mary-Jane in the Raimi films (and discusses other things, like toxic masculinity), might be worth a read:
https://www.themarysue.com/spider-man-trilogy-gender-roles/
I think it's fine that she's not always likable. Is likability a necessary trait for good or interesting characters?
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Reminder everyone:
MJ in Homecoming is not Mary Jane Watson, she's a different character created for the movie and her real name is Michelle Jones. I kinda wish that they just went full on an just called her Mary Jane but eh not much we can do now.
Homecoming is also the first Spider-Man movie where the final battle didn't involve Peter having to rush off to save his girlfriend. That should be applauded given how Raimi's pretty much did that with all the female characters in his movies. The women in his movies only exist to either be saved or as a reward for the hero.
I have recently rewatched the movie and Michelle does has a lot of depth;
MJ in Homecoming is not Mary Jane Watson, she's a different character created for the movie and her real name is Michelle Jones. I kinda wish that they just went full on an just called her Mary Jane but eh not much we can do now.
Homecoming is also the first Spider-Man movie where the final battle didn't involve Peter having to rush off to save his girlfriend. That should be applauded given how Raimi's pretty much did that with all the female characters in his movies. The women in his movies only exist to either be saved or as a reward for the hero.
I have recently rewatched the movie and Michelle does has a lot of depth;
- She's an outcast,
- She's a bookworm,
- Puts on a shield of a jokester to mask her loneliness,
- Is very smart,
- Has a crush on Peter but doesn't know how to tell him,
- This is my theory but I suspect that she knows that Peter is Spider-Man given that she knew that Peter was in the marching band and robotic club and dropped out, she also hangs very closely to Peter.
And I think people like the older movies because of nostalgia. It's the same people who think a Space Jam sequel is a good idea.
This is a ridiculous comment. Part of a film's purpose is absolutely to world build, I honestly don't know how to respond to this. Come on....
Not every character can be a main character.
She was his love interest in that film yes, but the film clearly showed her as a character intersecting and moving through Peter's coming of age story.
Again, characters like this are perfectly fine and indeed required.
She had enough agency on show for a side-character, she is shown as able, determined, interested. She was head of the group preparing the Homecoming dance, leader of the Decathlon team, someone who would call Peter on his shit due to her principles, etc...
If you're going to hold up Liz and Rami's MJ and compare them without context, sure, otherwise no.
she was not intended to be as much of a focus as MJ from Rami's films. MJ in Rami spanned all 3 movies, Liz is a side-character in the first MCU SM. Obviously MJ was more fleshed out, that doesn't mean Liz was a poor side-character.
Her only being seen when Peter is around doest mean she didn't have agency. She was not a main-character, and that's actually okay.
Agency reasoned above.
God forbid she move on after Peter rejects her and date a handsome astronaut! What a selfish sloooot!! /s
I think there's evidence in Spider-Man 2 that she didn't really move on from Peter (or Spidey) though
Just them "finally getting Spider-Man right" is what most fans praise and I'm like "is it a good movie tho?"
That third act twist and car ride save it, but outside of that it did next to nothing for me.
Your problems clearly extend past the writing of the films.
or it could be well written character motivations, great action setpieces, emotional investment.. you know, boring stuff
Everything about MJ in SM2 revolves around Peter. She doesn't stand on her own, which is why she sucks in that film. And I liked MJ in the first film.
Did you see the mcu logo before the film began. Any film with that logo is a masterpiece.
They're still propped up as the only ones that can make a good superhero movie these days.
She's the MCU's take on her, she ain't gonna get suddenly replaced by the "real MJ" lol.
He even participated in a thread that did exactly that a few hours ago lmao
Imagine if someone said people only liked the first two movies because of nostalgia, so dumb lol
Only Disney can make great movies. WBs, and Sony should give them all the superhero ips. Otherwise we won't get quality films like Dr strange.
You know, except for the super popular Deadpool movies and Logan and Days Of Future Past and Wonder Woman.
It's not movie goers fault that DC and Fox have been shitting the bed these last few years.
Sorry *Tries to move on*
It had been two years. Jeeze. Was she supposed to wait around forever for Peter?
Agreed.
is that wrong? they've still had some clunkers and those clunkers still get incessantly shit on. Thor 2 is a meme for a reason. claiming that people think "any film with that logo is a masterpiece" is just dumb
lol, of course
well that was constructive
Thor 2 isn't even remotely close to being the worse MCU entry which is why I hate that dumb meme.
Possibly but I'm sure there's certainly a extra reason why we keep getting "old movie x is bad despite being critically aclaimed at the time" threads about Spiderman 2 more than anything else.
Hmmmmm....
I don't like her either due to how she's utilized in those films, but you should really reflect on why her being with multiple guys bothers you, OP.
what movie is worse? it's certainly my least favorite by a wide margin
If I write that entire list out, it'll derail the whole thread, but I'll say that I liked Thor 2 more than Homecoming for one.
What a bad take.
"She sucks because she fucks people and those people care about her!"
Would she be better if she only fucked one person and no one cared about her?
I mean, the writing is certainly hammy, corny, and at times downright laughable...but your areas of critique are pretty absurd to me.
"She sucks because she fucks people and those people care about her!"
Would she be better if she only fucked one person and no one cared about her?
I mean, the writing is certainly hammy, corny, and at times downright laughable...but your areas of critique are pretty absurd to me.
Why do you hate MJ for dating guys? Her thing with Harry is a dick move on Harry's part more than anything imo, since he knows Peter likes her too but just goes for it anyway. And MJ gets understandably frustrated with Peter in SM2, because he told her he didn't return her feelings at the end of SM1, after which she tried to move on with astronaut dude, only to have Peter keep trying to get close/pushing her away in 2.
Yeah this. I've been rewatching stuff from the Raimi films while playing through the PS4 game, and Spider-Man 2 is still so fucking good. Homecoming's fun but the whole double life thing never seems to have lasting consequences for Peter, compared to stuff like the party scene in 2 where all of Peter's problems come to a head.
Good read. You know the closing shot to SM2 is still one of my favorites in a comic book movie.
I think she's a good character but that she would be written differently in 2018. The first movie was made in 2001. Things have changed quite a bit when it comes to romance in film.
That doesn't mean she has agency. Her being leader of the decathalon doesn't meam she has agency in this movie. Her entire purpose is to move Peter along. Background noise isn't agency. You get agency by demonstrating it within the frames you see. How they did it in Homecoming doesn't work.
It isn't OK. It just an excuse for a bad character.
Yeah she need to move on but I don't feel like that excuses what she does to Jameson
Yes it does, and she demonstrated her agency within the frames we saw.
Films require characters like these, her being a side-character and not being involved in Peter's main story thread does not make her a bad character.
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