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  1. They didn't. You can try but she is designed to push Peter, not be her own character who interacts with Peter. You do not understand this. They could make her the first ever self-made Billionaire and she wouldn't have agency within this movie.
  2. JuicyPlayer


    Spider-Man 2 is way too cringy to watch today.
  3. astro


    No, she is designed to flesh out Peter's coming of age story by being one of the side characters in his story. That's all.

    Some of you don't understand characters like this need to exist for world building to work, especially in film's about teenagers who have active social lives. Lots of moving parts, and side-characters need to exist.

    She was a well fleshed out side-character.
  4. sawatsu

    Member OP

    Wasn't the famous hanging from the top kiss scene while she was dating Harry?
    At the beginning of Spiderman 2 she wants Peter to kiss her and say that he loves her, few moments later she agrees to a marriage proposal of a literal NPC, on a party Peter is at.
    In the end she runs away from the wedding, in a wedding dress (that her fiance probably bought too!) and gets to Peter, or maybe Spiderman and encourages him to do his Spidey thing and that it won't matter at all when they date each other.
    Later on it's suddenly a problem that he doesn't have time for her and is also more popular while she herself fails as a singer.

    I am sorry if I went overboard with "bitch", but I simply don't like her. It's not only because she jumps from one to another, that would be fine on it's own, but she creates endless drama with that, which sucks for me as a viewer and drags on too long. As I said in the OP, Spiderman with low focus on romance is much more engaging too me, than what we got.
  5. Then she doesn't have agency if she is designed to flesh out Peter's story. You aren't making sense.
  6. BossAttack


    That is not depth. Her character was essentially nothing more than a cutaway gag. She has no depth in Homecoming.

    I don't think you understand what the word "agency" entails. You throw out things like Liz's accomplishments and/or titles and use this to imply she has depth or agency, she does not. A fancy title or past achievement does not equate to agency, a character can be the President of the United States in a film and still lack agency. Liz exists purely to serve Peter in the movie, she only appears when Peter is on-screen, and when she's on-screen she mainly exists to either scold Peter or flirt with him. When I compared Liz and Raimi MJ I compared them exclusively in their first movies. Raimi MJ has tons of depth and agency, she does not exist to serve Peter. She has her own life goals and interests independent of Peter and the movie follows her as she seeks to pursue them. There are whole scees just devoted to her and her life problems that have nothing to do with Peter. Liz does not have that. Everything regarding her character is about feeding Peter. And, we barely know anything about her, hence the "shocking" final act twist regarding her father. The reason it's able to be a twist is because we know so little about her. Of course, the twist further diminishes her character as the film becomes even less so about her and more about her father.

    Lastly, you keep using the word "side character" as if that excuses her paper-thin characterization. It doesn't. Even a side character can have depth and agency, that is not reserved solely to main characters. J Jonah Jameson in Raimi's films has agency and depth, a fucking bit comic character. You can find plenty of movies where simple side characters have agency and depth. Homecoming, sadly, ain't one.

    Thank you.
  7. Kinthey


    Homecomings MJ might as well have been added into the movie in post. Felt like she really added nothing to the movie aside from dropping the occasional snide remark.

    They were clearly just setting her up for the next movie. Any comparison to a fledged out character is kind of premature until the sequel drops.
  8. marrec


    You know what?

    Yes. The first 3 Spider-Man movies were like a sip of water after slogging through a terrible desert. It's the most delicious water you think you've ever had.

    Then you get back home and crack open a bottle of the good stuff and remember the taste of that terrible post-desert water and realize the awful truth.
  9. Bobo Dakes

    Bobo Dakes

    I’ve never hated this word more.
  10. Bobo Dakes

    Bobo Dakes


    If you were describing Amazing Spider-Man, I guess.
  11. robotrock

    Self-requested ban Member

    I love spiderman 2
  12. Bobo Dakes

    Bobo Dakes

    Good man.
  13. Stalker


    I mostly agree with this.

    Raimis trilogy gets so much praise but I rewatched them a few times and outside of 1 or 2 moments I've always felt they sucked. Didn't help that you had 27 year old Toby walking around as a high schooler

  14. Wonderment


    This conversation started from a dubious position and has become a tangled web. None shall be snared in it any longer.
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