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"I have a father. His name was Ben Parker." One of the best lines in a superhero movie.

Uzumaki Goku

Uzumaki Goku

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,296
Recall just before Uncle Ben died, Ben told Peter "I know I'm not your father." "So stop pretending to be!" Peter snaps back and tragically, this was the final words they shared as the next scene, Uncle Ben dies. What the original Raimi film did. It made the loss of Uncle Ben hurt because you had time to get to know him. This is one thing the Amazing Spider-Man and even the MCU gets wrong. Richard and May Parker may have spawned Peter Parker, but they are not important character to the mythos. Tony Stark is not Peter Parker's father.

Uncle Ben is. Uncle Ben is who he gets his ideals from, why he does what he does and this is challenged through Norman Osborn who sees Peter more as the son he wanted than his actual son Harry. Norman has actually treated Peter with respect and as the Green Goblin tried to get Spider-Man to join his side with words that ring true. "In spite of everything you've done. Eventually they will hate you." Green Goblin even gives Spidey the sadistic choice: Let Mary Jane die or let the children die. But Spider-Man manages to rescue both. At the end while Green Goblin beats the crap out of him, he makes the fatal mistakes of implying he's going to torture Mary Jane. "I'm going to finish her. Nice and slow. MJ and I... we're gonna have a hell of a time!" and Peter gets the will to fight back only stopping when Norman unmasks.

Here Norman tries one last time to reach out to Peter. "I've been like a father to you. Now be a son to me." and Peter just finally says what he should've said back in the car with Uncle Ben. "I have a father. His name was Ben Parker."

Just so emotional weight behind it. The first two Spider-Man movies, while maybe outdated by modern filmmaking, they're just such well thought up films and truly among the best superhero films of all time.
 

Deleted member 13496

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,409
The reason I LIKE MCU Spider Man is because we've had like five movies of that already. I'm glad they skipped over the origin we all know what happened, let's try something new.
 
DiipuSurotu

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
Second best line in a superhero movie is "With great power comes great responsibility.", which happens to be from the same movie.
 
BossAttack

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,004
Yes to all of that.

MCU Spidey is mediocrity all around. Only Spiderverse competes with Raimi.
 
Raguel

Raguel

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,275
I loved the first two films at the time but there are better superhero films now. MCU Spidey as a character is a much better Spidey than raimi Spidey that it's not even funny
 
Sou Da

Sou Da

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,738
Uzumaki Goku said:
If I may say so.

The Spectacular Spider-Man is the best depiction of the Spider-Man mythos. Ever.
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I'll agree with this but not Bossattack's continually generic takes.

Weisman was a master of understanding how to make a character who seems likable to the audience come off as a complete scumbag to the characters in the world.
 

JDSN

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,129
Yep, they got the core of the MCU character all wrong with making Tony a replacement for a character that is so deeply rooted in the spiderman mythos, the whole dinamic made both characters lesser, it made Peter dependent on a dude that enlisted a minor to get whooped on Germany and it made Tony's extended family redundant.
 
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Radd Redd

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,009
Op you can have father figures in your life. Iron Man's
death was so good because he was willing to sacrifice all he had to bring back a kid he looked at as a son he never had.
 

Deleted member 13496

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,409
BossAttack said:
I have no problem with mixing things up, but they didn't really do that. They just made a bog-standard, safe Spidey movie.
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They made a fun and breezy Spider-Man movie not weighed down with endless dramatic bullshit and long takes of sad faces of actors 20 years older than the people they're supposed to be portraying. They followed high-school kids who acted like high-school kids in modern times.

If that's not your thing that's cool, but I cannot go back to any of the Raimi movies because of that. Spider-Man 2 being the exception but the other ones are unwatchable for me now.
 
OP
OP
Uzumaki Goku

Uzumaki Goku

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,296
To be perfectly honest with you, I would've preferred Spider-Man got more screentime and interaction with Cap than Tony. Civil War set up a good rapport with them both being New York kids, but they never did anything with it.
 

Deleted member 13496

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,409
Uzumaki Goku said:
To be perfectly honest with you, I would've preferred Spider-Man got more screentime and interaction with Cap than Tony. Civil War set up a good rapport with them both being New York kids, but they never did anything with it.
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Yeah that would have been pretty cool. I think him and Tony have far more in common, but the "Brooklyn...Queens" line is one of my favourites.
 
Lord Vatek

Lord Vatek

Avenger
Jan 18, 2018
21,514
Every year that goes by I find myself disliking the Raimi films more and more.

They have good moments but on the whole they've aged incredibly poorly.
 
xxracerxx

xxracerxx

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
31,222
Uzumaki Goku said:
To be perfectly honest with you, I would've preferred Spider-Man got more screentime and interaction with Cap than Tony. Civil War set up a good rapport with them both being New York kids, but they never did anything with it.
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Science geek likes other science geek, not a surprise there.

Also, doesn't Cap call Spider-Man "Queens" in Endgame?
 
BossAttack

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,004
Blythe said:
Give MCU Spidey some credit.
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No, this moment in particular is why I think Homecoming is so average. What's so special about this scene? Why does the movie think the audience is so dumb that it has to play us an audio flashback of something Tony just said to him?

"What are you without that suit?"

Um, he's Spider-Man. He has super-strength. Super reflexes. Heightened intelligence. Why is taking away his Iron-Man suit some big moment that is supposed to make him vulnerable? What is his emotional connection in this moment that makes him overcome this challenge? The sudden realization that he's more than a suit? Has he not been Spider-Man for like a year before ever meeting Tony Stark? He just now knows this? How does the villain challenge him in this moment to reflect on his inner conflict? How does the villain in anyway reveal anything about Peter?

I'll just link back to what I said long ago about the film:

 
Tace

Tace

Avenger
Nov 1, 2017
35,526
The Rapscallion
It's a great scene.

That said, I don't get this weird obsession some people have dunking on MCU's spidey. If you actually read the comics you would know MCU Pete is the closest to his actual comic book character's personality. So one, it feels like people who say that don't really understand the character. As far as his relationship with Tony, it's not meant to replace his relationship with Uncle Ben. It's not like Ben is no longer the entire catalyst for Pete becoming a hero because he still is. They made a conscious effort to avoid because we've seen that story's twice already in the past 15 years. That doesn't mean Uncle Ben isn't important , but do you really want the third rebooted Spidey to spend an hour on his origin, especially when it seems to be his traditional origin more or less.
 
BossAttack

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,004
Switch Back 9 said:
They made a fun and breezy Spider-Man movie not weighed down with endless dramatic bullshit and long takes of sad faces of actors 20 years older than the people they're supposed to be portraying. They followed high-school kids who acted like high-school kids in modern times.
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Funny how Spider-verse didn't do that and wasn't boring mediocrity and also managed to push boundaries.

Homecoming didn't push anything, it's your bog-standard average MCU film. I don't need Raimi again, I do need a film that actually has actual character exploration, meaningful side characters, themes, and creativity.
 
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OP
OP
Uzumaki Goku

Uzumaki Goku

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,296
Look, I'm gonna be blunt.

I thought Homecoming was okay. I love Tom Holland, but Homecoming was just okay. Nothing special, just okay.

But considering it was coming off Amazing Spider-Man 2, that's all it had to be.
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
Seesaw15 said:
Relax OP. Let Peter have other mentors he cares about.

Raimi fans on Era can't seem to praise his movies with out going out of their way to shit on the other interpretation.
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It's not so much what the MCU version doesn't have in its mythos, it's how it presents things and what it chooses to do that end up with a Peter and Spider-Man with nothing much of substance. Uncle Ben still died in this world, they just ignore it.
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284
Doober said:
Oh man, are we gonna start goblinposting?

Because I love goblinposting.
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You know, I'm something of a goblinposter myself.

maxresdefault.jpg
 
Aine

Aine

Member
May 27, 2019
1,815
BossAttack said:
Funny how Spider-verse didn't that and wasn't boring mediocrity and also managed to push boundaries.

Homecoming didn't push anything, it's your bog-standard average MCU film. I don't need Raimi again, I do need a film that actually has actual character exploration, meaningful side characters, themes, and creativity.
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I enjoyed both films, but you're totally right.
 

Deleted member 13496

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,409
BossAttack said:
Funny how Spider-verse didn't that and wasn't boring mediocrity and also managed to push boundaries.

Homecoming didn't push anything, it's your bog-standard average MCU film. I don't need Raimi again, I do need a film that actually has actual character exploration, meaningful side characters, themes, and creativity.
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I'm not arguing against Spiderverse, it's easily and far and away the best Spider-Man movie. All I'm saying is that I prefer the light and fun MCU Spidey to the Raimi Spider-Man movies, and that the MCU films are better for choosing to avoid the whole Ben Parker origin story being re-told for the 756th time.
 
The Third Heat

The Third Heat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,551
Uzumaki Goku said:
Look, I'm gonna be blunt.

I thought Homecoming was okay. I love Tom Holland, but Homecoming was just okay. Nothing special, just okay.

But considering it was coming off Amazing Spider-Man 2, that's all it had to be.
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I completely agree with this take, but I still don't think we should be discounting Tony Stark's role in Peter's life in these new films. It may not have had that same impact as what happened to Uncle Ben (it's a great arc in that first film, and central to Raimi's Spider-man), but it also played out over four movies, in much smaller chunks. (meaning, one film all about overcoming his guilt about Ben's death, rather than four films spread out over three years). I hope Far From Home let's us see more of how much Tony meant to Peter, as I don't think we really knew how much Ben meant to Peter until he was gone.

Side-take: I think the greatest tragedy of Spider-man 3 wasn't Venom or that weird Emo Parker sequence, but the fact that they retconned the biggest emotional arc of the first two films in order to accomplish nothing. Making Sandman responsible for Ben's death is unforgivable in my book.

Also, Spider-man 2 holds up.
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
Tace said:
It's a great scene.

That said, I don't get this weird obsession some people have dunking on MCU's spidey. If you actually read the comics you would know MCU Pete is the closest to his actual comic book character's personality. So one, it feels like people who say that don't really understand the character. As far as his relationship with Tony, it's not meant to replace his relationship with Uncle Ben. It's not like Ben is no longer the entire catalyst for Pete becoming a hero because he still is. They made a conscious effort to avoid because we've seen that story's twice already in the past 15 years. That doesn't mean Uncle Ben isn't important , but do you really want the third rebooted Spidey to spend an hour on his origin, especially when it seems to be his traditional origin more or less.
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In terms of quips and how he blabbers yet, but everything supporting him is just pretty ho hum and insubstantial. Characters are about more than their base quirks, everything in the story is there to push and highlight the MC, and MCUverse Spider-Man is simply bad at this, period. They have the core beats but there's none of the actual emotional depth or things for him to play well off of. What they do have him care about, beyond the stock Peter/Hero stuff, doesn't do his character any favours.

Spider-verse gets Spider-Man/Peter and the themes without having to rehash old material, MCUverse just hits some points and then excludes other very important ones while poorly (If at all) substituting for the omissions.

BossAttack said:
Funny how Spider-verse didn't that and wasn't boring mediocrity and also managed to push boundaries.

Homecoming didn't push anything, it's your bog-standard average MCU film. I don't need Raimi again, I do need a film that actually has actual character exploration, meaningful side characters, themes, and creativity.
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You have my sword.
 
Seesaw15

Seesaw15

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,819
Sou Da said:
Holy shit I didn't realize that all three raimi movies are this
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And the two Amazing films as well( Lizard and Electro). People shit on Homecoming for being "boiler plate mcu" but at least they let Spider-man fight a normal blue collar villain and didn't have an overdone 'will they won't they' B plot for once.
 
Bor Gullet

Bor Gullet

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,399
Seesaw15 said:
And the two Amazing films as well( Lizard and Electro). People shit on Homecoming for being "boiler plate mcu" but at least they let Spider-man fight a normal blue collar villain and didn't have an overdone 'will they won't they' B plot for once.
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I found it ridiculous how all three Raimi Spider-Man films had Mary Jane kidnapped in the 3rd act.
 
Zvonimir Boban

Zvonimir Boban

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,523
MCU Spidey is great in the suit but he is a bad Peter Parker and that's unforgivable because that's more important than quips during a boss battle.

It's so obvious that even BossAttack understands it!
 
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