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I love Kingdom Hearts but my god, it has some of the dumbest moments

DragonSJG

DragonSJG

Banned
Mar 4, 2019
14,341
Kingdom Hearts is one of my favorite video game franchises and all but whenever I play these games, I sometimes get reminded just how absolutely insane. I mean, having Donald Duck cast Zetta Flare or him and Goofy existing in the same universe as Sephiroth of all people and talking about the darkness in a Final Fantasy character's heart. Mickey Mouse in a black anime coat is getting too much and this video is just sums up the series craziness:
www.youtube.com

why i cant introduce kingdom hearts to my friends

the worst lines in kingdom hearts, i'm embarrassed Hey I obviously don't own kingdom hearts, but if you use my comp, credit me pretty please?for more garbage...
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com
 
Bradbury

Bradbury

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,855
Kingdom Hearts IS my favorite game franchise and the dumb is one of the reasons I love it, KH is one the most sincere piece of arts made by man, it´s pure raw emotion, for the good, the bad and the dumb
 
Weiss

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Something I've never understood about the KH fanbase is that they'll talk at length about how terrible the story is and claim that's why they like it which is.... weird. It's an admission that Kingdom Hearts as a series has nothing of value to offer and exists on the same level as The Room, experienced only to be mocked and abused.

Also wrong side my dude.
 
Bradbury

Bradbury

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,855
Weiss said:
Something I've never understood about the KH fanbase is that they'll talk at length about how terrible the story is and claim that's why they like it which is.... weird. It's an admission that Kingdom Hearts as a series has nothing of value to offer and exists on the same level as The Room, experienced only to be mocked and abused.

Also wrong side my dude.
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I don´t think the story is full terrible, it´s told in a very messy way but there´s genuine emotion in there. the end of KH 1, the whole BBS, some segments of KH 3 are few of the games that made me genuine tear up playing.
KH has some lowest of the lows, but when it gets high is something trully magical
 

Zache

Unshakable Resolve
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,791
AJIsteM.jpg
 
vectorj

vectorj

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,013
The whole is definitely less than the parts.

358/2 Days still elicits genuine emotional reaction from me. Look, the premise of it and everything that comprises the foundations of its story is mired in KH lore shit. But the core story of three friends finding each other in an unknown and lonely world, then being separated is pure, and wholesome, that it comes back around and manages to be able to pull the heartstrings.

I actually think KH3 does the series a disservice by existing. The conclusions to the three groups of friends were all over the place in quality. The BBS crew probably had the most fulfilling conclusion.
 
Strangelove_77

Strangelove_77

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,392
I just pretend it's written by a 13 year old boy hooked on energy drinks. It's not so bad that way.
 
Glass Arrows

Glass Arrows

Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,414
"Mixed feelings" is the definition of what my relationship with KH is.

I mean I'd say it's worth playing the series for its great gameplay (well sometimes) but whether you like the story or not is very dependent on whether you can stomach the cheese, the often stilted, horrible dialogue, nonsensical plot twists, etc or if you enjoy that sort of thing. It's not like it's ALL bad, there are individual scenes, character moments, etc that are decent and enjoyable but it can often be a slog to get there and honestly I don't like most of the newer characters or direction. I've thought the character writing has been rather lackluster since at least BBS so that's another problem for me.

I can appreciate that people enjoy the "wholesomeness" of it and the appeal of something like that in this day and age, but personally that's not a huge selling point for me for in and of itself. And if I wanted something of that nature I'd much prefer to watch something like Steven Universe or Gravity Falls, which are positive and wholesome but have much sharper character writing, way better dialogue, more coherent plotting, and so on.
 
Mezentine

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,976
I just beat KH1 for the first time this week and I'm starting KH2 now and its sort of infuriating because there are really interesting ideas here and I know enough about where the series goes to know that it barely does anything with them

Also I'm not crazy right, the opening to KH2 is literally just Dark City?
 
Weiss

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Bradbury said:
I don´t think the story is full terrible, it´s told in a very messy way but there´s genuine emotion in there. the end of KH 1, the whole BBS, some segments of KH 3 are few of the games that made me genuine tear up playing.
KH has some lowest of the lows, but when it gets high is something trully magical
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I straight up think KH1 is a really well written game with a strong story, but ever since then the entire series has been a mess and I can't really call myself a fan.

What I don't get is that there are people who feel the same way I do, that Kingdom Hearts has long gone off the rails and never stopped, but still insist on being fans of the series. That as long as they chortle and meme their way through "I'm already half Xehanort!" and whatever the fuck happened in KHIII then somehow the game becomes good. How can you appreciate a story if you're only following along to see how much of a mess it'll make of itself?
 
Bradbury

Bradbury

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,855
Weiss said:
I straight up think KH1 is a really well written game with a strong story, but ever since then the entire series has been a mess and I can't really call myself a fan.

What I don't get is that there are people who feel the same way I do, that Kingdom Hearts has long gone off the rails and never stopped, but still insist on being fans of the series. That as long as they chortle and meme their way through "I'm already half Xehanort!" and whatever the fuck happened in KHIII then somehow the game becomes good. How can you appreciate a story if you're only following along to see how much of a mess it'll make of itself?
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YEah I really don´t understand those people.
I genuine still enjoy the story and the world even if it´s very messy.
Maybe deep down they enjoy it too
 
Village

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,809
Weiss said:
. It's an admission that Kingdom Hearts as a series has nothing of value to offer
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You don't know how stories work then? To go from " Well I heard some folks say its bad, thus its the room " is some of the most robotic shit ever. Video game story telling and how it communicates to the viewer as a medium is a bit more complicated than just " its just bad " and maybe that's why so many people like this weird game where mickey mouse beats the shit out of monsters in a cloak. That also isn't to mention the value people derive out of the game itself let alone parts of the story while also acknowledging its flawed
 
Weiss

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Village said:
You don't know how stories work then? To go from " Well I heard some folks say its bad, thus its the room " is some of the most robotic shit ever. Video game story telling and how it communicates to the viewer as a medium is a bit more complicated than just " its just bad " and maybe that's why so many people like this weird game where mickey mouse beats the shit out of monsters in a cloak. That also isn't to mention the value people derive out of the game itself let alone parts of the story while also acknowledging its flawed
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There's acknowledging its flaws and then there's the myriad flaws you have to glaze over in order to actually enjoy whatever there is to find in the Kingdom Hearts series, which KH fans themselves can't seem to do which is why they pull the "it's stupid and I love it!" card.

Yes yes haha Woody made a silly at the evil anime bishie. Why does that matter? Why is the value of Kingdom Hearts, the game that made me jealous of PS2 owners, only found in how terrible it can be?
 
ScoobsJoestar

ScoobsJoestar

Member
May 30, 2019
4,071
I love it because it's so dumb. If it was marginally more sensible it would just be forgettable, the sheer insanity is what elevates it from gimmicky to "Jesus what" and it's endearing as hell. It complicates itself when it really doesn't need to, and it's convoluted for very little reason. It seems to shy away from streamlining its plot as if it was a principle, the dialogue is cheesy as fuck, the plot operates under rules that are apparently very strict but at the same time borderline esoteric, and yet it all feels relatively easy to follow so long as you don't get hung up on the details and just go "Yeah sure makes enough sense."

It's super dumb and I love it dearly.
 
saenima

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
Weiss said:
There's acknowledging its flaws and then there's the myriad flaws you have to glaze over in order to actually enjoy whatever there is to find in the Kingdom Hearts series, which KH fans themselves can't seem to do which is why they pull the "it's stupid and I love it!" card.

Yes yes haha Woody made a silly at the evil anime bishie. Why does that matter? Why is the value of Kingdom Hearts, the game that made me jealous of PS2 owners, only found in how terrible it can be?
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There are other things to enjoy in KH other than the story. They're pretty fun games to play.

Also Goofy.
 
Village

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,809
Weiss said:
There's acknowledging its flaws and then there's the myriad flaws you have to glaze over in order to actually enjoy whatever there is to find in the Kingdom Hearts series, which KH fans themselves can't seem to do which is why they pull the "it's stupid and I love it!" card.

Yes yes haha Woody made a silly at the evil anime bishie. Why does that matter? Why is the value of Kingdom Hearts, the game that made me jealous of PS2 owners, only found in how terrible it can be?
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... I don't think there are a myriad flaws you have to get over to enjoy it really, but that's up to opinion. The only flaw you need to get past is " This is some shonen friend shit, get ready " and if you are down for that, great if you aren't... you in for a bad time.

As for " KH" fans can't seem to do it themselves... maybe its really stupid and fun and they and I like it. Comic books are fucking dumb, I love comic books. Metal Gear is Fucking stupid, I love metal Gear. I can like shit that's weird and stupid as hell and not be denying some greater meaning . I would actually argue me being able to do that means I understand the work.

And " why does that matter " that's the part people like, and if you can't get that, then kingdom hearts was never for you.
 
hydruxo

hydruxo

▲ Legend ▲
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Oct 25, 2017
20,441
There are definitely a lot of dumb moments but Donald casting Zetta Flare was hype as fuck. I loved that.
 
antitrop

antitrop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,600
As someone who only played a little bit of the first one when it was new, I couldn't have possibly imagined where the series would go from there.
 
Weiss

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Village said:
... I don't think there are a myriad flaws you have to get over to enjoy it really, but that's up to opinion. The only flaw you need to get past is " This is some shonen friend shit, get ready " and if you are down for that, great if you aren't... you in for a bad time.

As for " KH" fans can't seem to do it themselves... maybe its really stupid and fun and they and I like it. Comic books are fucking dumb, I love comic books. Metal Gear is Fucking stupid, I love metal Gear. I can like shit that's weird and stupid as hell and not be denying some greater meaning . I would actually argue me being able to do that means I understand a lot.

And " why does that matter " that's the part people like, and if you can't get that, then kingdom hearts was never for you.
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That's exactly what I'm talking about. What other fanbase gleefully mocks its source of entertainment while proclaiming unironic love for it?

I love me some Transformers and the Ninja Turtles, but I don't go "haha giant robots that turn into cars! mutated turtles that are ninjas! So dumb!" because that betrays a fundamental level of investment into the work. Either I like it, or I don't. I accept that this is a universe that runs on its rules, and if I couldn't do that I'd break away from it entirely because how in the world can you obsessively mock something that, at the same time, supposedly gives you joy?

Or to bring this back to Kingdom Hearts: if KH1 was able to create a magical and realizable fantasy universe based on the union of Cloud Strife and Donald Duck coexisting, then what the hell went wrong from there?
 
Richietto

Richietto

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,994
North Carolina
Weiss said:
That's exactly what I'm talking about. What other fanbase gleefully mocks its source of entertainment while proclaiming unironic love for it?

I love me some Transformers and the Ninja Turtles, but I don't go "haha giant robots that turn into cars! mutated turtles that are ninjas! So dumb!" because that betrays a fundamental level of investment into the work. Either I like it, or I don't. I accept that this is a universe that runs on its rules, and if I couldn't do that I'd break away from it entirely because how in the world can you obsessively mock something that, at the same time, supposedly gives you joy?

Or to bring this back to Kingdom Hearts: if KH1 was able to create a magical and realizable fantasy universe based on the union of Cloud Strife and Donald Duck coexisting, then what the hell went wrong from there?
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Its a video game, it ain't that serious. KH is fun, the story is dumb, and im fucking invested in that shit. I know everything there is to know about KH lore, and that shit is fucking insane, dumb, etc. We all know its bad, but its fun and thats valid.
 
Village

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,809
Weiss said:
That's exactly what I'm talking about. What other fanbase gleefully mocks its source of entertainment while proclaiming unironic love for it?
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...
looks around

Are you serious, a lot of fan bases do that. When you are into some shit super hard, you become hyper aware of its flaws, and that's generally what happens.
 
Weiss

Weiss

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Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Green Slime King said:
Its a video game, it ain't that serious.
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n-nuh uh

Village said:
...
looks around

Are you serious, a lot of fan bases do that. When you are into some shit super hard, you become hyper aware of its flaws, and that's generally what happens.
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So you think it's perfectly normal to outright despise large swaths of what's supposed to make a series good, the fundamental building blocks that make it what it is, and still be a fan of it.

Because that shit sounds crazy to me, fam.
 
Banana Aeon

Banana Aeon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,260
Weiss said:
That's exactly what I'm talking about. What other fanbase gleefully mocks its source of entertainment while proclaiming unironic love for it?

I love me some Transformers and the Ninja Turtles, but I don't go "haha giant robots that turn into cars! mutated turtles that are ninjas! So dumb!" because that betrays a fundamental level of investment into the work. Either I like it, or I don't. I accept that this is a universe that runs on its rules, and if I couldn't do that I'd break away from it entirely because how in the world can you obsessively mock something that, at the same time, supposedly gives you joy?

Or to bring this back to Kingdom Hearts: if KH1 was able to create a magical and realizable fantasy universe based on the union of Cloud Strife and Donald Duck coexisting, then what the hell went wrong from there?
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If you can't mock the things you enjoy, do you truly enjoy said thing?
 
ScoobsJoestar

ScoobsJoestar

Member
May 30, 2019
4,071
Weiss said:
That's exactly what I'm talking about. What other fanbase gleefully mocks its source of entertainment while proclaiming unironic love for it?

I love me some Transformers and the Ninja Turtles, but I don't go "haha giant robots that turn into cars! mutated turtles that are ninjas! So dumb!" because that betrays a fundamental level of investment into the work. Either I like it, or I don't. I accept that this is a universe that runs on its rules, and if I couldn't do that I'd break away from it entirely because how in the world can you obsessively mock something that, at the same time, supposedly gives you joy?
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To some people, they can get invested in something while still thinking it's dumb. Put it this way:



See this video? It's a fucking youtube video about marbles competing as though it was an Olympic sport. It's fucking dumb as a concept and I cannot even pretend to explain why it would be captivating. Yet I get irrationally invested when it airs and hope that my favorite team wins. I get invested in it, lose myself in the moment, and when I pull back and go "...I'm watching fucking marbles" that just makes me laugh and enjoy it from a different perspective too. I'll be unironically cheering for the O'Rangers while watching it, I'll stop, curse the non-existent ref and go "...These are marbles. The fact I care about those stupid fucking marbles makes this 10 times more enjoyable. 10/10"

If you want a more technical answer: KH has actually really nice character writing and can make you very unironically invested in character relationships and their desire to help each other. Despite this, it somehow has plot writing that nears parody. So you get invested in the character side of things, but when it comes to the plot proper you're like "...Yeah okay" and just roll with it to get to the part you care about. The plot is absurd, convoluted, and generally poorly told to the point where you can make fun of it, but generally there's still shit you unironically enjoy that's buried underneath the ironic appreciation of the plot proper.

But overall? Some people can just appreciate silly shit and get invested in silly shit. It's cool if you don't, but it's not a big mystery that people can get into it, is it?
 
Weiss

Weiss

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Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Banana Aeon said:
If you can't mock the things you enjoy, do you truly enjoy said thing?
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If all I can do is mock the things I enjoy, do I even enjoy it at all?

Because

Green Slime King said:
Its a video game, it ain't that serious. KH is fun, the story is dumb, and im fucking invested in that shit. I know everything there is to know about KH lore, and that shit is fucking insane, dumb, etc. We all know its bad, but its fun and thats valid.
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This doesn't seem like "yeah it's silly but I like it", this is more of a condemnation of the quality of KH's story then even its most ardent detractors could come with, and this is someone who actually likes it.
 
diakyu

diakyu

Member
Dec 15, 2018
17,539
Huge fan of the series and this stuff is so funny. There's some line in the game where Riku inadvertently calls himself stupid by saying Sora never did pick smart friends. Series is too good.
 
Village

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,809
Weiss said:
n-nuh uh



So you think it's perfectly normal to outright despise large swaths of what's supposed to make a series good, the fundamental building blocks that make it what it is, and still be a fan of it.

Because that shit sounds crazy to me, fam.
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I don't think fans hate large swaths of kh

That said in video games that isnt an uncommon occurence folks play different games for different reasons
 
Glass Arrows

Glass Arrows

Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,414
Village said:
I don't think fans hate large swaths of kh
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If anything it seems like they mostly just dislike certain plot points like a lot of the stuff KH3D introduced, and even then that's just the hardcore KH fanbase, I don't really know if more casual players cared that much because they are probably just playing the games to hit things with a keyblade and see some Disney fanservice.
 
ScoobsJoestar

ScoobsJoestar

Member
May 30, 2019
4,071
JasonMCG said:
The thing about KH is that it feels like it tries to justify its own self-importance. It's just cringey nonsense.
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Thing about KH's plot is that it simultaneously wastes a lot of time explaining shit it doesn't have to and not addressing shit it probably should. Some of the stuff is actually super interesting imo but the way it's told is pretty bad, and since it's being sort of made up on the spot with minimal planning a lot of it comes off as "This would be super good if it was planned."

Like I legit like the concept of Nobodies and Heartless, but the way the series goes about it is kinda ehhh at times. The series is at its best when it focuses on the characters - KH2's intro with Roxas was rad and I'll defend it to this day, and it works really well without getting into KH2's messy shit.
 
Trigonometrize

Trigonometrize

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,143
Glass Arrows said:
If anything it seems like they mostly just dislike certain plot points like a lot of the stuff KH3D introduced, and even then that's just the hardcore KH fanbase, I don't really know if more casual players cared that much because they are probably just playing the games to hit things with a keyblade and see some Disney fanservice.
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I don't think your idea of a casual Kingdom Hearts player really exists. From my experience, if you're someone that plays Kingdom Hearts and likes it, it isn't a surface-level enjoyment. It's about Sora, Riku, Roxas, BBS gang, lore, etc. For being a Disney crossover game I don't think there's very many people that regularly pick up Kingdom Hearts games that are just sort of kind of into it for ez fights and Disney.
 
Nax

Nax

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Member
Oct 10, 2018
6,674
Honestly, I realized how dumb this stuff truly was when I picked up KH 3. I mean, it had been 13 years since 2. I have nostalgia for 1 & 2, so I can still enjoy them.

I mostly enjoyed 3 as well. But I cringed so many times. The dialogue and story were just so, so bad. It bummed me out, since it started feeling like the games may not be for me anymore. I was hoping they would grow with their audience. Since I expect the majority of folks playing are in their 20s.
 
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