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I love Sylvando from Dragon Quest XI, but I can't tell if he's supposed to be mocking gay people.
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To be fair to Sylv, the writing pretty much falls off a cliff in general in the second half.
Nice assumption your making.
I didn't find him offensive because of his flamboyance, but I had the feeling I was ment to laugh with him. So I didn't had the feeling it was a sincere portrayal, and that's why I found his portrayal somewhat offencie. I didn't finish DQXI due to time restraints, so I didn't see his whole arc and I am - in part thanks to this topic - very well aware that apparently his character is handled well further in the story.
For what it's worth, I found the portrayal of Eric en Sex Education on Netflix, who is similarly flamboyant, absolutely brilliant. So, if it's me, then it's because I was maybe too sensitive about it and assumed to quick he was played of for laughs.
I'm not gay, but I find Sylvando a great character and I dont think he mocks gay people, it is actually a great character that is respected by the party and a with a good personal story overall.
But not being gay myself maybe i dont have the sensibility to correctly judge him.
But not being gay myself maybe i dont have the sensibility to correctly judge him.
I'm not sure if he is actually gay or not or just highly effeminate but regardless as a straight dude I fucking love that guy. Best character in the game by far in terms of story arc and just being a fabulous bad ass. I don't see him as mocking anything and just embracing who he is and everyone embraces him for it. Great shit to be honest.
He would be a caricature if his identity of being a very queer character is all he has to offer in terms of personality but those who played the game and reached far enough knows Slyvando is a lot more than that.
I'm a straight guy so my opinion is probably irrelevant or wrong, but I never felt he was mocking gay people.
Sylvando is beloved by his friends and family, he's respected and relied upon by those same people and the game lets you know that through his actions and the way the world and his friends treat him.
Not only that but he is a bad ass who kicks ass on a regular basis. The game never makes fun of his flamboyance or makes you feel like it's a weakness. The game lets the character be what he wants to be without making him a "throwaway character" like I often see on TV or in the movies.
I thought Sylvando was great and I hope I am not misreading that.
Sylvando is beloved by his friends and family, he's respected and relied upon by those same people and the game lets you know that through his actions and the way the world and his friends treat him.
Not only that but he is a bad ass who kicks ass on a regular basis. The game never makes fun of his flamboyance or makes you feel like it's a weakness. The game lets the character be what he wants to be without making him a "throwaway character" like I often see on TV or in the movies.
I thought Sylvando was great and I hope I am not misreading that.
best character in the game. the OST is overall pretty average/bad but his theme is actually pretty good. those gifs kinda spoil the game btw. that stuff was pretty memorable to me. def. one of the highlights.
I hear there are some differences in his portrayal in the original japanese, but in the localized version at least he's fantastic; pretty much my favorite character along with Veronica.
I did think his troupe was a bit much tho, and there were like two moments in the story where it felt the game was mocking/judging him, which left a sour taste, but overall he's awesome.
I did think his troupe was a bit much tho, and there were like two moments in the story where it felt the game was mocking/judging him, which left a sour taste, but overall he's awesome.
I loved Sylvando in my playthrough. Used him at every chance I could! I didn't find anything super offensive with him, but I'm not gay, so I can't speak with any authority on the subject.
One thing I do know is that as a black dude, I find a lot more non-black folk outraged and offended than my own folk when it comes to matters about us. I wouldn't be surprised if there were other communities that this happens in.
One thing I do know is that as a black dude, I find a lot more non-black folk outraged and offended than my own folk when it comes to matters about us. I wouldn't be surprised if there were other communities that this happens in.
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A big part of it is also the fact that he's portrayed in a way that a lot of gay characters in a Japanese game/anime is portrayed. It reminded me of Bolson from Breath of the Wild
It's great to see that so many of you enjoyed him too! His skills are also really handy in battle. Let's not do the "if you find flamboyance to be gay, you're the problem" thing. That accomplishes nothing.
It's great to see that so many of you enjoyed him too! His skills are also really handy in battle. Let's not do the "if you find flamboyance to be gay, you're the problem" thing. That accomplishes nothing.
The thing is though that Sylvando is an empowered character with a lot of agency who is accepted and respected by everyone, and never once comes off as mocking or denigrating.A big part of it is also the fact that he's portrayed in a way that a lot of gay characters in a Japanese game/anime is portrayed. It reminded me of Bolson from Breath of the Wild
It's great to see that so many of you enjoyed him too! His skills are also really handy in battle. Let's not do the "if you find flamboyance to be gay, you're the problem" thing. That accomplishes nothing.
His theme song immediately entered my head. Yeah, I was a big fan of Sylvando. I was a bit on the fence on whether he was commentary or a legit character up until his story arc with his father cemented that he is the latter.
When Sylvando showed up, I worried that he was going to be yet another example of a horrible trope I've encountered in a lot of Japanese media - the flamboyant character who is constantly making unwanted advances on the rest of the cast.
Instead, he was respectful, passionate, and well-treated / accepted by the other characters in the game. That alone makes him one of the better (if still stereotypical) representations of LGBT characters that I've seen in Japanese games + anime. I'm not qualified to say whether that makes him a good representation, but I at least feel like he avoids the all-too-common worst-case scenario.
Instead, he was respectful, passionate, and well-treated / accepted by the other characters in the game. That alone makes him one of the better (if still stereotypical) representations of LGBT characters that I've seen in Japanese games + anime. I'm not qualified to say whether that makes him a good representation, but I at least feel like he avoids the all-too-common worst-case scenario.
Straight, but I thought he was great; nobody insults him and he's incredibly competent/powerful, which made it work for me. I could totally see why someone would find him/The Parade overly stereotypical and be uncomfortable with it based on that, though.
I also think the accent stuff doesn't help, but that extends to the game as a whole.
EDIT: Above post is a great way of putting it.
I also think the accent stuff doesn't help, but that extends to the game as a whole.
EDIT: Above post is a great way of putting it.
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To the other characters? No. You're correct.
To the player? I was pretty upset when he first appeared and started calling everyone "honey" and "darling" before I spent more time with him and learned to love him, lol.
That was how I felt too. Nearly every time gay characters pop up in JRPGs they're ultra-flamboyant AND awkwardly, creepily flirty. The fact they instead went for more of a "dude who knows way more about what's going on than he makes it seem" tack with him and made him genuinely invested in improving people's lives was such a refreshing change from the norm.
Sylvando is a great gay character that was handled so much better than I could ever have imagined from a Japanese studio. I'm gonna assume this is partially thanks to the localization team? Anyway he's a great strong character that deserves praise.
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As a gay dude, to be honest I really want more flamboyantly feminine portrayals of gay men in video games that are explicitly not meant to be just a joke or a creeper - there are actually quite few that aren't that, and I think sometimes well-meaning people, in media in general, are too obsessed with creating "he's gay but in every other way appears like a tough straight dude, they're just like everyone else you guys!" which I just tend to find boring and bland, to be honest. Sylvando is great for that.
He was an amazing character and one of my favorites in a long time.
He was always a strong, positive force and never really the butt of a joke or scorn/derision.
He also shows how you can artistically use stereotype to subvert expectations and tell a story/show a lesson. If it's well done it can add a lot. Our own expectations I think helped tell the story of acceptance. A lot of people would be thrown off kilter by his demeanor at first but then we have to learn acceptance to. He is who his is with no apologies.
He was always a strong, positive force and never really the butt of a joke or scorn/derision.
He also shows how you can artistically use stereotype to subvert expectations and tell a story/show a lesson. If it's well done it can add a lot. Our own expectations I think helped tell the story of acceptance. A lot of people would be thrown off kilter by his demeanor at first but then we have to learn acceptance to. He is who his is with no apologies.
Characters like this are complicated. He's a really camp character with clear gay coding, but without actually taking the final step to actually acknowledge him as a gay character. Characters like this can be fun, but when they're the extent of gay representation, I won't blame anyone for rolling their eyes a bit. You can easily read a "this is what they are like" take out of an individual character carrying their entire group's representation, which could have been avoided so easily by being bolder with the diversity of your characters. The same thing happens with video games and race.
Ultimately though, if you Sylvando is fun and inoffensive, there's no harm in enjoying him. There's plenty of room for camp male characters in video games. Certain types of masculinity are overrepresented in this medium, and I'll embrace any attempt to broaden the spectrum.
Ultimately though, if you Sylvando is fun and inoffensive, there's no harm in enjoying him. There's plenty of room for camp male characters in video games. Certain types of masculinity are overrepresented in this medium, and I'll embrace any attempt to broaden the spectrum.
As a not gay dude, I think my initial impression was he would be a gay stereotype. So I was pleasantly surprised when he was portrayed, and received, so positively.
He also saved my butt on more than one occasion. Couldn't have beaten the game without him. Thanks, Sylv!
He also saved my butt on more than one occasion. Couldn't have beaten the game without him. Thanks, Sylv!
I'm not sure I understand why people want more flamboyant gay characters instead of more non-flamboyant gay characters? At this point that would be a lot more novel especially in JRPGs. It's kind of a problem to me when every gay characters in one game (Sylvando + The Parade in DQXI) are all flamboyant. That's where it becomes stereotypical.
As a gay man, I think he's one of the best characters in the game. It's rare to find gay characters that aren't heteronormative and aren't treated as a joke in video games (perhaps media in general). He's a clown, he's a knight, he's queer and proud and fierce and I love it. Bonus points for having one of the best character arcs in the game.
You are.
I felt Sylvando may have towed the line a couple of times but overall is just a flamboyant and engaging character. His story was one of the highlights of the game for me and also seeing him strive to entertain everyone whatever the circumstances. He is also competent, inspiring to several minor characters in game and he gained nuance as you learned his history and why he holds himself to such a high standard professionally and ethically. As a straight person, take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I did not feel he was meant to mock gay people.
I'm very early on but he seems pretty cool to me. Like, thus far he's been the most useful cast member, arguably. And everyone acknowledges him as such too. I don't think that's making fun of gay people. He's flamboyant, but he's also dashing and popular and basically fucking legendary when you meet him.
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It's a tough situation. I feel that Japanese games almost exclusively use stereotypical flamboyant or horny gay characters, while as western games feature more ultra masculine/stoic gay characters (if at all–they usually default to lesbians instead like in movies and TV).
I really wondered about gay men's reaction to this as well. He was definitely a walking stereotype, but also one of the strongest people in the world. Most interesting character in that story by far.
He subverts your expectations. If anything he is a very positive example of somebody who behaves outside of "social norms".
Many times you see characters like that reduced to a stereotype. While his flamboyant nature is a big part of who he is, it's not his only defining trait. He is strong both mentally and physically, noble, charismatic and fabulous at the same time.
Many times you see characters like that reduced to a stereotype. While his flamboyant nature is a big part of who he is, it's not his only defining trait. He is strong both mentally and physically, noble, charismatic and fabulous at the same time.
Seeing all the positivity around this character in this thread has me wanting to play the game more.
*goes back to deciding if I should play on PS4 or Switch*
Bolson is an interesting example. In the US English localization at least, his sexuality was never confirmed, but I seem to recall the script left it open (I think he uses a gender-neutral term at one point to refer to a potential partner). It's somewhat fascinating to see how his design evolved in the BotW art book.
*goes back to deciding if I should play on PS4 or Switch*
A big part of it is also the fact that he's portrayed in a way that a lot of gay characters in a Japanese game/anime is portrayed. It reminded me of Bolson from Breath of the Wild
It's great to see that so many of you enjoyed him too! His skills are also really handy in battle. Let's not do the "if you find flamboyance to be gay, you're the problem" thing. That accomplishes nothing.
Bolson is an interesting example. In the US English localization at least, his sexuality was never confirmed, but I seem to recall the script left it open (I think he uses a gender-neutral term at one point to refer to a potential partner). It's somewhat fascinating to see how his design evolved in the BotW art book.
Embracing gay characters in media doesn't require erasing flamboyant characters. You just have to give them some depth and treat them like people.
Sylvando is great.
Sylvando is great.
From what I'm reading he reminds my a lot of bon-chan from one piece. Gay stereotype and ends up becoming ur favorite
I'd feel better if she didn't have attacks like "Sexy Beam" and "Hip Drop". Especially cause those traits don't seem like part of her character most the time.
Haven't played through DQXI, but I feel like the rule of thumb is that if there's a camp gay dude in something, they're usually intended as a form of mockery.
The positive reception of Sylvando however gives me hope that we can acknowledge that camp and "effeminate" gay men exist and are deserving of love and respect.
The positive reception of Sylvando however gives me hope that we can acknowledge that camp and "effeminate" gay men exist and are deserving of love and respect.
It's complicated. I don't mind the relatively recent Western tendency to portray gay characters as very plain, but the stoic borderline dude-bro looking people except they're gay so this makes them unique thing is like the "bald white soldier guy" meme of the last generation. This grated on me a lot with Mass Effect for example, where the gay characters in general are aggressively plain and boring - in a series with such great, memorable characters and designs, all the male same-sex options are literally the most boring people imaginable.
This is a well-meaning impulse (gay characters are normal! they're just like everyone else!) but it also comes off as completely boring and kind of lazy, like they're just afterthoughts. "We made this dude - make him gay I guess, it'll make him slightly more interesting." Sylvando is cool because everything about his character revolves around his flamboyant expression of his homosexuality while being genuinely appreciated by all involved and not being a big creeper.
The "stereotypical" thing is the complicated part - because obviously stereotypes sometimes exist for a reason and a lot of gay guys, myself included have known or do still know some realll flamboyant folks, and they're loved and respected just as much as anyone else. Those people should still be portrayed in media even if a lot of people see nothing but a feminine gay guy, think "this is a stereotype, it is now problematic" and tune out. Canadians loving hockey and poutine is a stereotype, too, but lemme tell ya, a lot of Canadians really do love them some hockey and poutine.
And all the bunny suit shit. Jade joining the party was when my experience with the game really started to fray because her portrayal in the story doesn't really mesh with the way the game itself wants to objectify her all the time.
From what I've watched, there's nothing to be offended about here. Trying to find something to be offended about seems like a waste of time.
100% agree. Wish they had handled her better because she's a cool character aside from all that.
I think diversity is important, but speaking as a gay man more effeminate/flamboyant men are often the most vulnerable sects of the gay community. The problem was their inclusion in games prior was always seen as a joke/stereotype instead of crafting actual characters beyond their flamboyant manner of speech. From what I'm reading, it doesn't seem like Sylvando isn't just boiled down to being the super flamboyant one/isn't the butt of every joke, and has a lot more going on with him which is good.
This is exactly how I viewed his character. Sylvando is just amazing and I demand they put him in Dragon Quest Heroes 3
"Sexy Jade" though really took me out of the game for a bit.
I am glad to see some of the posts in this thread about him being a positive character and that his story goes good places. Myself and my brother were both concerned that the game was going to fuck it up, and I have only played about half way through, so good to hear it treats his story with respect.
Jade on the other hand, and even the sisters, definitely get shit on in terms of outfits etc.
Jade on the other hand, and even the sisters, definitely get shit on in terms of outfits etc.
Sylvando is amazing in how kind and accepting he is. Growing up in a place filled with toxic masculinity, he found a way to escape that and be himself. Giving people something to smile about and always being a helping hand. It also turns out his dad is way more into it than he thought and any misgivings are cleared up.
That Sylvando is being as campy as camp can be is great, but obviously it only captures a small part of the gay spectrum. What's more important is that he shows you can be proud of the person you want to become and that sharing it with others is caring.
I think that's the big takeaway here. To take pride in expressing yourself. Sylvando is also a great role model. He's not the joke of anything, he's the Great Sylvando. Amazing in all his glory, darling.
That Sylvando is being as campy as camp can be is great, but obviously it only captures a small part of the gay spectrum. What's more important is that he shows you can be proud of the person you want to become and that sharing it with others is caring.
I think that's the big takeaway here. To take pride in expressing yourself. Sylvando is also a great role model. He's not the joke of anything, he's the Great Sylvando. Amazing in all his glory, darling.