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ShadowFox08

Banned
Nov 25, 2017
3,524
I've given it a chance on Zelda and fortnite, and I want to get Doom on Switch when it goes on sale on the eShop, but honestly are there any games that do it better? I really doubt Paladins and Splatoon 2 are much better.

Gyro+dual analog for shooters just feels way to slow and sluggish compared to IR shooters on Wii and Wii U(cod4, waw, bo1, mw3, bo2, etc. And there was gyro support, but it wasn't even needed for aiming, it as just only used for gestures like throwing grenades or reloading. I've been using the combo for 45 hours on fortnite, and it just doesn't compare in regards to turn speeds and snapping on to someone at a flick of the wrist. It's a shame Nintendo didn't bring it back on tbe Switch, as it could have made IR aiming popular. But now it's a back camera used for gestures.

Anyone else feel the same? I truly feel its the next best thing for shooters after keyboard and mouse. The only caveat was that a sensor bar and a IR camera in the front of the controller was needed, and it couldn't be exposed to direct sun, but that was easy to cover.
 

Nabs

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,695
Touchpad + Gyro (Steam Controller activates the gyro when you touch the pad) feels better than IR to me. I love using the touchpad alone when emulating Wii games. Touchpad + Gyro is a million times better than analog + gyro in my opinion. You use the touchpad to make big motions, and gyro to line up precision shots. I use it the same way I use a mouse (forearm big movements, wrist smaller ones).

The biggest issue with IR is how slow it is to move the camera. It's great for aiming, but everything else feels sluggish.
 
OP
OP
ShadowFox08

ShadowFox08

Banned
Nov 25, 2017
3,524
IR + IMU will always be superior to IMU alone.
Yes, but even shooters like cod on Wii and Wii u that only limited gyro for gestures have been so far superior with IR pointer controls for aiming and turning by a long shot with the games I've played so far on the Switch. I'm curious if there are people hwre who have played IR controls extensively for Wii and Wii u and have input on Doom and Splatoon 2 and can compare.
 

RochHoch

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 22, 2018
18,912
Splatoon 2's gyro is absolutely fantastic. I was hesitant to try it at first, but it's definitely the best way to play the game.
 
OP
OP
ShadowFox08

ShadowFox08

Banned
Nov 25, 2017
3,524
Touchpad + Gyro (Steam Controller activates the gyro when you touch the pad) feels better than IR to me. I love using the touchpad alone when emulating Wii games. Touchpad + Gyro is a million times better than analog + gyro in my opinion. You use the touchpad to make big motions, and gyro to line up precision shots. I use it the same way I use a mouse (forearm big movements, wrist smaller ones).

The biggest issue with IR is how slow it is to move the camera. It's great for aiming, but everything else feels sluggish.
What games are you speaking of specifically in regards to the camera?
 

Dremorak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,707
New Zealand
Splatoon 2, Wolfenstein 2 and (apparantly) DOOM all do it really well.

I played the whole of Wolf2 using it and it made the game so much better.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,684
Isn't most of the problem with the games you've discussed down to them being 30fps and the gyro still having input latency directly attached to that?

I'm presuming Fortnite is 30fps?
 

Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,960
Generally speaking, I would say that IR is worse across the board for controlling a camera and crosshair in TPS and FPS games than DualAnalog+Gyro is. Wii IR camera control is less quick, less precise, and less accurate. Sure, it's intuitive, and it feels good, but I think people continue to overstate its quality even now. Here's a collection of facts about Wii-style IR aiming that make it the clear lesser of the two motion control options for shooters in from my perspective:

- motion response times are noticibly less immediate than gyro

- Wii Remote IR sensors operate at at a 1280x720 resolution, which was fine when it was used for bounding-box style camera control systems in 480p FPS games, but less precise for controlling high-resolution games

- Wii Remote IR has a limited range - point too far up, down, or to the side (anything that makes it so that the Wiimote's IR camera loses view of the sensor bar) and you lose all control over your aim for a moment. And because of the nature of IR control, for control consistency, you must play in the same seat every time, for changing the angle or distance at which the Wii Remote is viewing the IR Sensor Bar will change the way the Wii Remote interprets that IR information. Gyro doesn't have these problems. One can make minuscule adjustments or extreme, 90 degree wrist twist style adjustments without worry. One can move to wherever they'd like in the room or stretch however they like and play, without having to compensate for differences in how the controller will interpret its own location from that position.

- When using IR to control a shooter, the on-screen location of your cursor also determines your turning speed through a bounding box system, which makes it so that tracking moving targets becomes an exercise in juggling your camera facing and your crosshair position simultaneously.

- Due to the nature of the bounding box system, it is more difficult to quickly and accurately orient your camera than even with an analog stick, and the accuracy of being able to point your crosshair at enemies... is offset by the fact that aiming your crosshair anywhere besides the center of the screen will generally cause camera movement that necessitates further adjustment to aim.

I played all the great Wii shooters to death. I spent time on Youtube back in the day watching people play, among other games, Conduit 2 and MW Reflex on Wii to pick up playstyle tips. I've never seen anyone play so well with a Wii Remote so as to be convinced in retrospect that it remains the unchallenged best console control option for a shooter, or anything like the mouse-level FPS input device that it had been made out to be throughout the Wii's life. The caveats are too great.



You can do stuff like this with DA+Gyro. Note how the player in this clip takes advantage of both their ability to make precise microadjustments to their aim, and their ability to make sweeping 180 shots with precision. This sort of play is more feasible with DA+Gyro because the player does not need to balance the on-screen location of the cursor against their active turning speed.

I've never had someone show me an example of Wii IR pointing being used with that degree of accuracy and speed in a shooter game. The best I've ever seen were vids posted by TCon2 players, who kind of tended to overstate their skill with IR because it's what drew them to the game and they wanted to extol its relative benefits over Duan Analog. Alongside them were some moderately impressive BLOPS 2 clips. And even those videos were kind of just not up to snuff. Those players were not aiming and turning with the kind of speed and precision I should expect to associate with the best available control scheme for the genre. Average play isn't elevated just because the player got a headshot or two that they might not have on an analog stick, but for those who actually presented evidence of their 'high level play' on Wii Remote + Chuk, it seemed like that's how they felt.

Like I said, Wii Remote + Chuk is an intuitive control scheme that feels good to use, though. That'll be enough for a lot of people, depending on how much they value comfort and an intuitive feel. However, I maintain that gyro + analog is the superior of the two options, because using gyro for micro movements and analog for macro movements enables pinpoint precision without sacrificing immediacy or any level of control. It probably doesn't help that, while I think BoTW has good gyro support (marred only by the fact that control stick sensitivity is not up to snuff at all), Fortnite has awful gyro support. The games that ultimately make the best case for gyro aim are games like Splatoon (where the gyro really IS that much better, as you might be able to tell by the video above) as well as all PC games which support it (any PC game that supports simultaneous mouse/gamepad input does).

I'm generally a big fan of gyro, as I believe it to be the way forward for comfortable and precise FPS and TPS control on console. Here's some posts I've made RE: gyro in the past, hopefully my description of gyro in these posts illuminates my reasoning for preferring it over pointer control, given the constraints I've highlighted above.

A joystick controls the velocity of the movement of your camera. The X and Y value of your joystick's physical position determines how fast your camera/crosshair can move, with an upper limit. The small, one inch range of motion afforded by most analog sticks favors extremes rather than accuracy and is the primary reason why stick aim is considered less precise than (1:1) mouse. That's relative.

A mouse controls the movement of your camera directly - without turn speed constraints or upper limits, instantaneously, 1:1 with your input. Translating the speed and distance of your physical movement directly into reliable and consistent onscreen movement. That's 1:1, or absolute.

Gyro controls the movement of your camera directly - without turn speed constraints or upper limits, instantaneously, 1:1 with your input. Translating the speed and distance of your physical movement directly into reliable and consistent onscreen movement. That's 1:1, or absolute.

Gyro doesn't replicate the nudging and moving of a stick - it, in fact, replicate's a mouse's ability to instantly translate your input 1:1 into onscreen camera movement, regardless of the velocity or distance of the physical movement. If it were replicating the nudging and moving of a stick, then it would be significantly less useful - something I've actually observed in practice, since you can map Dualshock 4/Steam Controller gyro to stick directly on Steam, and it's awful. Whereas it works exactly as intended, when you map Dualshock 4/Steam Controller gyro to mouselook, because they operate on the same principles.

With gyro, I can, without difficulty or any tradeoffs to speak of, display both finesse - keeping my crosshair squarely on a moving target while I'm moving, or snapping to an onscreen target's head just as I would with my mouse - and speed - turning on a dime thanks to high stick sensitivity. Gyro's effective range is limited by your wrists, so it's not so useful for macro camera control, but that's what the right stick is there for - and the right stick is limited in terms of accuracy, immediacy, and fine-point precision, but that's what gyro is there for. They compliment each other quite well.

Splatoon 2 is the only example I can forward for a console-exclusive shooter that supports motion control, but even then, it should be telling to you that motion control is favored as the competitive standard there, even despite the awkward constraints that came with its specific implementation. It's because it allows players something much closer to mouselike accuracy and immediacy than sticks alone do.
The gameplay in that footage is nearly indistinguishable from mouselook, and is visibly beyond the level of combined speed and precision that even skilled players exhibit using a an analog stick alone to manipulate a camera, even with the sort of mechanical assistance designed into nearly all dual-analog shooters as a direct concession to the well-known and well-understood constraints of the input method. Generally players are not going to be doing stuff like that with sticks alone. Generally, the limitations of DA as an input method are prohibitive to exhibiting that level of combined precision and speed with sticks alone - a similar kind of gulf that is generally understood to exist between analog camera control and mouselook.

That's why, as someone who's broken down and analyzed input methods for shooters in search of technical reasoning to describe each one's strengths and constraints in the past, I sometimes view disagreements relating to the nitty-gritty of how they work and where their limitations are, less as a matter of conflicting opinion, and more as a matter of fully acknowledging and understanding the capabilities and constraints and upper limits of dual analog control compared other available input methods. Like, it's a given that minute accuracy and precision is sacrificed for turning speed at high sensitivities with sticks alone, as sensitivity scales across the entire physical range of the stick - high sensitivity for a high max turn speed means the inner range of the stick is now much more sensitive too. While that can be mitigated somewhat with a skilled hand, the limited physical movement range of an analog stick means that that tradeoff will always exist.

Gyro allows you to retain a very high turning speed using your sticks, and adds a mouselook-like layer of precise aim control on top of that. 1:1 - or in other words, moving your controller a half-inch will turn your camera by a certain amount every single time, no matter how quickly or slowly you make that motion. The chief advantage of mouselook, shared by gyro - meaning that, if someone is 90 degrees to my side, I can reliably and -instantly- turn and fire upon them, and then -instantly- return to my original facing. Even using sticks at high sensitivities, it is far less viable to make such quick, accurate, and precise maneuvers, as aiming a camera with a stick isn't 1:1 - there's an upper limit to the speed at which you can turn and aim and orient yourself as a result of the nature of relative (stick) aiming, which functions by translating the x/y value of your stick's physical orientation into a velocity and direction at which your camera will turn over time with an upper ceiling, versus 1:1 (mouselook/gyro) aiming, which has no upper speed limit and which responds instantly in accordance to whatever movement you do make, extreme or slight.

Ergo, there are actions and modes/styles of play which are viable with gyro which are arguably not as viable with sticks alone, or which would demand more from a sticks-only player than from a sticks & gyro player - in the same vein as how there are things you can do with mouselook that you couldn't do with sticks, or which would demand far more from a sticks player than someone using a mouse. Imagine attempting a smooth, fast 360 degree spin with an analog stick while hitting four smallish targets spaced evenly around you, in a console shooter. Difficult to imagine without halting your spin to adjust your aim, even despite those aforementioned mechanical assists that exist in shooter games designed for controllers as a result of developers understanding and designing in accordance to that input method's constraints and limitations. That same challenge, however, is not a particularly hard ask with mouselook, or gyro assist.
(Gyro + dual analog is) the best of both worlds. It's better than dual analog alone because you can make precise adjustments to your aim on the fly, and it's better than traditional IR aiming because your camera turn speed isn't dependent on a bounding box and the on-screen position of your crosshair. You can use the analog stick at higher sensitivities than usual to orient your camera, while using gyro to place your crosshair with precision.

Best possible control scheme would be an IR + Dual Analog + Gyro combination. Dual analog for macro adjustments, gyro for microadjustments, IR for UI control and optional crosshair placement. Alongside a toggle button that, when pressed, returns the camera to forward facing (ala Splatoon 2), and when held, enables the user to place the on-screen crosshair anywhere on the screen (Wii-style).
 
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Ehoavash

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,238
I loved resident evil 4 on the Wii due to pointer controls. The gyro controls in splatoon 2 are a hit or a miss for people. I dislike them cause you still have to use the right stick since gyro controls are only used for verticle camera movement in splatoon 2, not horizontal which takes some time to get used to. Even then I hated it. Gyro controls especially suck when playing splatoon 2 handheld. Feels very awful to play it handheld.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,938
Splatoon's gyro controls are indeed much better, even though Splatoon 2 introduced some input lag that the original game didn't have. If you play the campaign you'll develop the skills you need to use them elsewhere. Fortnite's implementation is bad, although it has gotten better over time, and is the biggest thing holding me back from playing more of it on the Switch. Also remember that you're supposed to be using the gyro controls and stick together, with the stick doing many of the large movements and the gyro doing the small ones.
 
Oct 29, 2017
1,662
I agree with this completely. I really wish it was as rumored before launch, and the top exposed part of the switch acted as a "sensor bar" with receivers on the joycons for accurate point controls.

Hell, they could have built the ir sensor bar right into the dock and have the receivers on the front of the joycons (like mini wii remotes).
 

Slam Tilt

Member
Jan 16, 2018
5,585
I think the gyro aim in Fortnite is fine, though admittedly I play it exclusively in handheld mode. That said, the gyro controls in DOOM are noticeably better, and going from sticks to gyro in DOOM was a whole new experience for me.
 

Dremorak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,707
New Zealand
Gryo is much more reliable, IR gets messed with by light and heat. Also Gryo is configurable, you can choose its sensitivity in pretty much every good implementation of it
 

impact

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,380
Tampa
I loved it in BotW but I couldn't wrap my brain around it in Splatoon 2. I just use it to fine tune after I swipe the stick in BotW and it worked good.

Also used it on the Steam controller for MGS5 and it was really good there, again just only activating on an L2 press to fine tune.
 

SigSig

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,777
Splatoon 2 showed me the light. Ever since I've been on a fence, as to what I prefer between gyro and KBM. Steam controller be praised, I can fine-tune the perfect gyro aim on my PC. Pointer is cool, sure, but it's really only feasible with slow games and railshooters.
 

Aprikurt

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 29, 2017
18,781
I loved resident evil 4 on the Wii due to pointer controls. The gyro controls in splatoon 2 are a hit or a miss for people. I dislike them cause you still have to use the right stick since gyro controls are only used for verticle camera movement in splatoon 2, not horizontal which takes some time to get used to. Even then I hated it. Gyro controls especially suck when playing splatoon 2 handheld. Feels very awful to play it handheld.
I actually haven't bought an iteration of Resi 4 since because I played it on Wii first and find it incredibly dull with a traditional control scheme.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,016
Switch and Wii U implementations have been mediocre at best from what I've played so far.
There tends to be a large deadzone, limited options over things like sensitivity, and no haptic feedback.
Gyro aiming with the Steam Controller is far more responsive and mouse-like than anything I've seen on the Switch, and you have a lot more customization options. The touchpads are better than analog sticks too.

I'm not sure if I agree that pointer controls are better, even if you are only targeting something which is on-screen.
With gyro aiming you can adjust the sensitivity so that you have much finer control over movements.
As soon as you are trying to hit something which requires you to turn the camera, gyro aiming is immediately better. Pointer aiming is very restricted in what it can do.
 

stan423321

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,676
The amount of madness with IR getting out of scope I had made me hate it. And it's supposed to callibrate to your display. Which is bad if you change displays regularly because you move your hardware.

Obviously, IR is not an option in handheld mode, while gyroscope is.

Any physicists around here? Why is everyone using cameras for motion tracking? I was wondering why Nintendo didn't make a mini-GPS style setup with radio waves, I guess time differences are too small?
 

TheMoon

|OT|
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,778
Video Games
I've given it a chance on Zelda and fortnite, and I want to get Doom on Switch when it goes on sale on the eShop, but honestly are there any games that do it better? I really doubt Paladins and Splatoon 2 are much better.
reminder that Paladins doesn't even have gyro assist yet. As per the thread posted right before yours: https://www.resetera.com/threads/pa...ember-demo-gameplay-on-nintendo-minute.73071/

It's absolutely ace in DOOM, etc and Splatoon 2
 
Oct 30, 2017
3,005
It's a shame IR is locked in some patent.

Nintendo could have easily had IR for Switch. A simple IR sensor on the bezel would have worked as well as a IR attachment like the Wii for the dock. Wouldn't have added much to the cost
 

bitSS

Self-requested ban
Banned
Nov 9, 2017
1,319
Portugal
Generally speaking, I would say that IR is worse across the board for controlling a camera and crosshair in TPS and FPS games than DualAnalog+Gyro is. Wii IR camera control is less quick, less precise, and less accurate. Sure, it's intuitive, and it feels good, but I think people continue to overstate its quality even now. Here's a collection of facts about Wii-style IR aiming that make it the clear lesser of the two motion control options for shooters in from my perspective:

- motion response times are noticibly less immediate than gyro

- Wii Remote IR sensors operate at at a 1280x720 resolution, which was fine when it was used for bounding-box style camera control systems in 480p FPS games, but less precise for controlling high-resolution games

- Wii Remote IR has a limited range - point too far up, down, or to the side (anything that makes it so that the Wiimote's IR camera loses view of the sensor bar) and you lose all control over your aim for a moment. And because of the nature of IR control, for control consistency, you must play in the same seat every time, for changing the angle or distance at which the Wii Remote is viewing the IR Sensor Bar will change the way the Wii Remote interprets that IR information. Gyro doesn't have these problems. One can make minuscule adjustments or extreme, 90 degree wrist twist style adjustments without worry. One can move to wherever they'd like in the room or stretch however they like and play, without having to compensate for differences in how the controller will interpret its own location from that position.

- When using IR to control a shooter, the on-screen location of your cursor also determines your turning speed through a bounding box system, which makes it so that tracking moving targets becomes an exercise in juggling your camera facing and your crosshair position simultaneously.

- Due to the nature of the bounding box system, it is more difficult to quickly and accurately orient your camera than even with an analog stick, and the accuracy of being able to point your crosshair at enemies... is offset by the fact that aiming your crosshair anywhere besides the center of the screen will generally cause camera movement that necessitates further adjustment to aim.

I played all the great Wii shooters to death. I spent time on Youtube back in the day watching people play, among other games, Conduit 2 and MW Reflex on Wii to pick up playstyle tips. I've never seen anyone play so well with a Wii Remote so as to be convinced in retrospect that it remains the unchallenged best console control option for a shooter, or anything like the mouse-level FPS input device that it had been made out to be throughout the Wii's life. The caveats are too great.



You can do stuff like this with DA+Gyro. Note how the player in this clip takes advantage of both their ability to make precise microadjustments to their aim, and their ability to make sweeping 180 shots with precision. This sort of play is more feasible with DA+Gyro because the player does not need to balance the on-screen location of the cursor against their active turning speed.

I've never had someone show me an example of Wii IR pointing being used with that degree of accuracy and speed in a shooter game. The best I've ever seen were vids posted by TCon2 players, who kind of tended to overstate their skill with IR because it's what drew them to the game and they wanted to extol its relative benefits over Duan Analog. Alongside them were some moderately impressive BLOPS 2 clips. And even those videos were kind of just not up to snuff. Those players were not aiming and turning with the kind of speed and precision I should expect to associate with the best available control scheme for the genre. Average play isn't elevated just because the player got a headshot or two that they might not have on an analog stick, but for those who actually presented evidence of their 'high level play' on Wii Remote + Chuk, it seemed like that's how they felt.

Like I said, Wii Remote + Chuk is an intuitive control scheme that feels good to use, though. That'll be enough for a lot of people, depending on how much they value comfort and an intuitive feel. However, I maintain that gyro + analog is the superior of the two options, because using gyro for micro movements and analog for macro movements enables pinpoint precision without sacrificing immediacy or any level of control. It probably doesn't help that, while I think BoTW has good gyro support (marred only by the fact that control stick sensitivity is not up to snuff at all), Fortnite has awful gyro support. The games that ultimately make the best case for gyro aim are games like Splatoon (where the gyro really IS that much better, as you might be able to tell by the video above) as well as all PC games which support it (any PC game that supports simultaneous mouse/gamepad input does).

I'm generally a big fan of gyro, as I believe it to be the way forward for comfortable and precise FPS and TPS control on console. Here's some posts I've made RE: gyro in the past, hopefully my description of gyro in these posts illuminates my reasoning for preferring it over pointer control, given the constraints I've highlighted above.





Best possible control scheme would be an IR + Dual Analog + Gyro combination. Dual analog for macro adjustments, gyro for microadjustments, IR for UI control and optional crosshair placement. Alongside a toggle button that, when pressed, returns the camera to forward facing (ala Splatoon 2), and when held, enables the user to place the on-screen crosshair anywhere on the screen (Wii-style).

That tweet made me feel like such a noob.
 

Wiped

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
2,096
Agreed. Definitely. IR much better. Worst thing about Switch is relying on Gyro instead
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,686
Yes, but even shooters like cod on Wii and Wii u that only limited gyro for gestures have been so far superior with IR pointer controls for aiming and turning by a long shot with the games I've played so far on the Switch.
I can agree with that. Only reason it doesn't bother me as much on Switch is that so far I've played mostly in handheld mode.
 

Mantorok

Member
Mar 8, 2018
1,494
I completely disagree with everything, Gyro is far superior, it responds better and doesn't rely on sensors so you can position the controller any way you choose. In terms of 1-1 with the player it obliterates IR imo.
 

KillstealWolf

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
16,095
Thing I hate with Splatoons was that gyro controlled the camera, so you would always get a little bit of wobble with the world view due to your hands naturally moving a bit, and it just makes the whole thing disorienting for me, turn it off immediately for that alone.

I imagine if you could restrict it to Ironsights only Gyro works better, but Splatoon ain't that kind of game.

Enjoyed the IR in Twilight Princess and Metroid Prime Trilogy so would much prefer that system, meanwhile Skywards Gyro was awful.

And yet here we are stuck with Gyro instead of IR.
 

eso76

Prophet of Truth
Member
Dec 8, 2017
8,120
Maybe OT but I found that aiming with the DS4 in PSVR (think London Heist) worked surprisingly well, almost flawlessly so.
 
Nov 4, 2017
7,377
Gyro? IR? Mouse and keyboard.
giphy.gif


In all seriousness though, I don't even like gyro assist but find it miles ahead of IR. I can at least see what people like about gyro (though I hate when it is forced, like in BotW).
 

JershJopstin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,332
and it just doesn't compare in regards to turn speeds and snapping on to someone at a flick of the wrist.
If that's what you're looking for, Splatoon 2 really lets you crank up the sensitivity. I believe Zelda does as well, though not as much; have you tried that?

(though I hate when it is forced, like in BotW).
It's not though, unless you're referring to a few specific shrines.
 

hans_castorp

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,459
I miss the Wii era, IR pointing was amazing. Best control scheme not counting K+M.

I find FPS unplayable with console controllers.
 

Turrican3

Member
Oct 27, 2017
781
Italy
Gyro is nice but drifting is a huge pain to me due to muscle memory being basically impossible to leverage (good luck resetting the sensors in the exact same position)

So IR is a clear winner for anything that involves pointing and I hope it comes back sooner rather than later.

Needless to say, if there is something that can be implemented to actually improve IR performance (IIRC brainchild talked about that some time ago) I'm all for it, this isn't meant to claim wiimote IR is the best possible technical IR solution.
 

Dizzy Ukulele

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,013
Astro Bot also has great gyro controls to the point that I now wonder why it's not used more with the DualShock outside of VR. As in, there should be a demand for it in every FPS like there is from Switch owners. It's the next best thing to mouse and keyboard.
 

Nerrel

Member
Oct 31, 2017
406
The biggest issue with IR is how slow it is to move the camera. It's great for aiming, but everything else feels sluggish.

That sounds like an issue with your turning speed being set too low. Outside of Metroid Prime trilogy, almost every Wii and Wii U game let you adjust that.

- motion response times are noticibly less immediate than gyro

- Wii Remote IR has a limited range - point too far up, down, or to the side (anything that makes it so that the Wiimote's IR camera loses view of the sensor bar) and you lose all control over your aim for a moment. And because of the nature of IR control, for control consistency, you must play in the same seat every time, for changing the angle or distance at which the Wii Remote is viewing the IR Sensor Bar will change the way the Wii Remote interprets that IR information. Gyro doesn't have these problems. One can make minuscule adjustments or extreme, 90 degree wrist twist style adjustments without worry. One can move to wherever they'd like in the room or stretch however they like and play, without having to compensate for differences in how the controller will interpret its own location from that position.

- When using IR to control a shooter, the on-screen location of your cursor also determines your turning speed through a bounding box system, which makes it so that tracking moving targets becomes an exercise in juggling your camera facing and your crosshair position simultaneously.

- Due to the nature of the bounding box system, it is more difficult to quickly and accurately orient your camera than even with an analog stick, and the accuracy of being able to point your crosshair at enemies... is offset by the fact that aiming your crosshair anywhere besides the center of the screen will generally cause camera movement that necessitates further adjustment to aim.

...
I've never had someone show me an example of Wii IR pointing being used with that degree of accuracy and speed in a shooter game.

I never noticed response times being lower with IR, in fact I'd say the opposite. If your cursor sensitivity is set high, IR is incredibly responsive.

Pointing off screen is a problem with the player, and if you have dead zones set tightly (which I think most experienced players will) then you'll never be moving far enough for it to be a problem. Yeah, having to sit a certain way is a hassle but I usually sit the same way when I play games anyway. I always thought the remote was more comfortable than dual analog since I could rest my hands separately.

The complaint about the cursor and turning being linked is more of a learning curve than an actual problem with IR. You have to adjust to your turning speeds and learn how to snap the camera right onto your target. This is why having a near 0 dead zone helps, since there's no gray area between aiming and turning.

There were a ton of videos posted back when Wii shooters were in their heydey that showed what IR aiming could do. I did a ton of pistols only matches and time trials in Goldeneye that wouldn't have been possible on a dual analog controller and probably not with gyro either.


Here are the weaknesses with gyro that you have to consider-

-It depends on analog sticks (one of the worst input methods for aiming short of a D-pad) to work. Gyro control is really "dual analog+." You mostly play like a normal dual analog game, but you can make precise little adjustments in your aim. IR aiming made all of your movements and turns smoother than a stick. Platforming in the Metroid games was noticeably better for me with IR because I could turn Samus' view in any direction much more smoothly than a stick could. Gyro puts you back to the jerky movements of a stick the majority of the time.

-Gyro loses calibration easily. There aren't many games where you use the gyro exclusively to aim for good reason. The cursor will drift when making big movements and you'll need a "recenter" button for the scheme to be usable. IR never drifts and never becomes less precise unless you have some kind of light interference.

-Gyro also sucks for cursor movement compared to IR. Turning a camera with a dead zone complicates things, but when the camera is static IR is just better for aiming. I don't think anyone would argue that gyro is preferable for a game like Starfox or Sin and Punishment. Sin and Punishment 2 on Wii might be the most perfect showcase of what IR can do. RE4 Wii is another example. You can snap the cursor from one side of the screen to the other in an instant and it's more intuitive to place the cursor because you are basically pointing at the area of the screen you want to shoot.

Gyro is a lot slower when making big movements across the screen, it will lose calibration quickly, and unlike pointing it's totally reliant on muscle memory.


I like gyro aim a lot- Steam's support for it has made a huge difference for me (I can't get into kb+mouse) and I recognize that it's a lot simpler and more practical than having to set up a sensor bar and certain seating distance. But I don't think I've ever thought of it as equal to the IR camera for any game type. The big advantage gyro has is that you have a full controller to work with- think of how limited the Wii remote was and how much better it could have been when considering how fully featured the joycons are.

A new remote and nunchuk with a full button layout, better sensors and a right stick, trackpad, or circle pad to supplement the camera would have been pretty amazing. I'd much rather have that than regular dual analog+ gyro.