I want to talk about a scene in EndGame (Unmarked Spoilers)

[DigitalOp]

Once again, Spoiler... unmarked. You've been warned, no whining.

As y'all know, we got a Women of Marvel scene in the 3rd Act aka 'AForce' and I wanted to talk about it for a sec

So I want to clarify before hand, I liked this scene. I know there are "complaints" floating around right now for all the wrong reasons but Im coming at it from a different angle. Im not saying that the heroines never got time to shine, obviously thats not true.

BP has great heroine moments between Okoye and Shuri
AntmanWasp has Wasp as a badass for most of the film (one of my favs)
SW has a great moment in this film and IW
Valkyrie is a highlight of Ragnarok
Rescue is a great moment for Endgames 3rd Act.

My issue is that this sequence isn't long enough nor developed enough. I actually was able to clock it and its 43 seconds long. The women of Marvel have had their respective moments in specific films, but here was a good chance to give them extended time to run in the limelight like the big boys and it ended up being used far too shallow. Again, would I take the scene out? HELL NO. But Id damn sure extend it snd develop it more.

21 films (not counting Cap Marvel obviously) and a 3 hour finale, and such a dope moment got relegated to 43 seconds. We had a moderate Ronin panning action sequence where we barely got to see his combat until his street battle. The 'Ronin' appearance is simple fanservice but ultimately pointless to the overall movie, that mainly is there to explain what Clint is doing and why he uses a sword now. Once Clint joins the team, its never even relevant except for one sentence on Vormir.

I would have easily taken that screentime and added it to the AForce scene.

Marvel has a lot of great heroines right now, and the scene kind of highlights how under utilized they can be at times, esp in big Team Up films. They have places in smaller films and solos but is that really enough? This is what I hope Marvel really works on as we get into next phase of films.

I just think Marvel didn't go hard enough with it as they would do with male heroes. 43 seconds in a 3 hour finale. What do y'all think?

 

[Deleted member 32561]

Yeah it was kinda short, I agree, it definitely could've been longer for ALL of the girls.
But for me the main thing that upset me is that Mantis didn't even do anything except for show up...
I understand her powers aren't really for combat but I mean she could've done something if they were gonna include her in that shot. Give her a psychic beam or make good on her earlier intro with the other guardians taking a fighting pose and have her be a decent hand-to-hand combat type or something IDK.

 

[Kevers]

The only odd thing about it was how they all coordinated and came together so suddenly.

 

[Flaurehn]

Yeah it was kinda short, I agree, it definitely could've been longer for ALL of the girls.
But for me the main thing that upset me is that Mantis didn't even do anything except for show up...
I understand her powers aren't really for combat but I mean she could've done something if they were gonna include her in that shot. Give her a psychic beam or make good on her earlier intro with the other guardians taking a fighting pose and have her be a decent hand-to-hand combat type or something IDK.

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She was putting to sleep the giant beasts, you can see her in the scene where Thor and Cap traded the hammers

 

[-JD-]

Most expensive 43 seconds ever filmed.

 

[WaffleTaco]

Yeah, it was short, but I’m glad it was there. I’m not sure that extending it would have made the scene any better.

 

[DigitalOp]

The only odd thing about it was how they all coordinated and came together so suddenly.

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Nah, nobody ever questions this for male heroes and their battle shots. This is still a movie at the end of the day. They were there to help rip the crowd up for Marvel, the set up is fine.

 

[Elderly Parrot]

The women I went with loved it so hey I’m all for it

 

[Deleted member 907]

Agreed. It was very shallow.

Marvel should've had more screen time to kick Thanos' ass.

 

[Dardan Sandiego]

The entire final battle is kind of a super messy fanservice explosion with many characters outside of Cap, Tony, Thor and Thanos only getting a few select moments. Captain Marvel and Black Widow got a bit more action but the climax was ultimately about the trio. You can call it pandering, unearned or whatever but people were cheering at my screening so eh.

 

[Visanideth]

It dangerously threaded the line between "we're genuine about this" and "we virtual signal so hard, buy our stuff".

But I want to take it as a genuine, feel-good victory lap about the diversity they built over the years and not a clumsy admission that a whole lot of that inclusivity borders on tokenism.

 

[Betty]

Captain Marvel one shots the ship and takes a headbutt from Thanos without flinching, which were two of the coolest moments in the film, so that makes up for any lack of screentime for the other female heroes I think.

 

[Sirhc]

This was a HUGE hit in my theater Thursday, would have loved to see abit more, but there was already so much going on, give us an A-Force movie though.

 

[jviggy43]

The only odd thing about it was how they all coordinated and came together so suddenly.

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Not really. They had previously been helping spiderman make his away across the battle field. They all were in the same area trying to accomplish the same goal (to get the gaunlet to antman). When he falls and Carol takes it, they were right there because they were all helping him get to the point in the first place. It makes perfect sense for why they were all there

Nah, nobody ever questions this for male heroes and their battle shots. This is still a movie at the end of the day. They were there to help rip the crowd up for Marvel, the set up is fine.

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And precisely this. Even if it didn't make sense within the movie (it did) why is it no one stops the presses for when we have the male teammups in these movies that seemingly come from nowhere?

 

[lmcfigs]

I honestly did not even notice. my friend saw it and started talking about it being lazily done and for pc reasons and I had no idea people were making a big deal about it.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

I didn't like it that much, felt kinda forced and came out of nowhere? but eh, I saw a girl cheer when it happened and if that means a lot to her then I assume it meant a lot to many more so it's fine.

I would have liked if it had been longer and maybe set up in a different way.

 

[Figgles]

When it started, I thought it was awesome... then every important woman on the battlefield shows up... now I teeter on liking it, and thinking it was too over the top.

 

[DigitalOp]

The women I went with loved it so hey I’m all for it

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The entire final battle is kind of a super messy fanservice explosion with many characters outside of Cap, Tony, Thor and Thanos only getting a few select moments. Captain Marvel and Black Widow got a bit more action but the climax was ultimately about the trio. You can call it pandering, unearned or whatever but people were cheering at my screening so eh.

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This was a HUGE hit in my theater Thursday, would have loved to see abit more, but there was already so much going on, give us an A-Force movie though.

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I didn't like it that much, felt kinda forced and came out of nowhere? but eh, I saw a girl cheer when it happened and if that means a lot to her then I assume it meant a lot to many more so it's fine.

I would have liked if it had been longer and maybe set up in a different way.

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Yeah, Im aware that its a huge hit for a lot of people and the scene as is doesn't take away from that.

Im more so just imaging if we got 2-3 mins, hell Id take 5 mins, of the ladies fucking shit up rather than 43 seconds, ya know? Then you'd have people even more juiced up over seeing that.

 

[WarLox]

It felt out of place to me because we just saw captain marvel tear through the mother ship on her own. So a few enemies on the ground weren't going to stop her, as we saw, since she just bulldozed her way through them anyway.

Some women in my theater started cheering so I guess it had its intended affect.

 

[Aurongel]

It’s a bit comical with how convenient and contrived it feels in the chaos of the final battle. I respect the intent but it felt very transparent and executed in the most obvious virtue signally way possible.

My showing had a very muted reaction.

 

[Puck Beaverton]

It dangerously threaded the line between "we're genuine about this" and "we virtual signal so hard, buy our stuff".

But I want to take it as a genuine, feel-good victory lap about the diversity they built over the years and not a clumsy admission that a whole lot of that inclusivity borders on tokenism.

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It's a mixture of the two. I'm sure they are happy about how diverse their cast is but also realize in the back of their mind how good the PR will be. The Clash were similar.

Also, 5 minutes would be way too much considering everyone else got maybe a minute to do shit.

And lastly, the women in my screening enjoyed it and I'm a dude that doesn't care too much about Marvel so my opinion does not mean a whole lot.

 

[chaobreaker]

I wished it was more fleshed out but I'll take what I can get.

 

[Kirblar]

The problem is definitely the coordination, it makes it feel cheesy/contrived.

In Infinity War they have a scene with a bunch of the women fighting together and it's awesome because it's obviously contrived on the writers part, but the characters aren't deliberately teaming up just to team up, it's happening "randomly" on the battlefield.

In Endgame, the way the shot is staged features all the women coming out of the woodwork in a way that seems really forced (mostly because no dudes are doing it at the same time)- if it had instead been more of a single-shot montage sequence of the women clearing a path for Carol without the characters being self-aware of it, it wouldn't have that weird meta aspect to it that takes you out of the moment. It feels contrived because it breaks the character agency illusion and the puppet strings show.

 

[Colin Robinson]

Cap, Shellhead and Thor team up to fight Thanos and no one bats an eye.

The women stand next to each other for 10 seconds and some people are crying that it’s “forced”. Fuck ‘em.

In this crazy, 3 hour long movie with wild shit happening every 10 minutes THIS is the scene that people say is unrealistic. C’mon. If you have a problem with that, that’s a “you” problem.

 

[Corky]

I didn’t like it but I get why it was there. I think they could have just had a more natural scene entirely compromised of women fighters without being so meta about it and framing it as something outside the films narrative.

Like it’s important and worth highlighting that a scene is entirely compromised of women heroes but there’s something off putting and self congratulatory about a film deciding to deem itself important like that.

 

[Flaurehn]

I have a question tho, when Thanos was charging against CM who were the other 2 girls that blasted him, I know one was rescue and there was no red "laser" beam so couldn't be Wanda

 

[TheBaldwin]

The entire final battle is kind of a super messy fanservice explosion with many characters outside of Cap, Tony, Thor and Thanos only getting a few select moments. Captain Marvel and Black Widow got a bit more action but the climax was ultimately about the trio. You can call it pandering, unearned or whatever but people were cheering at my screening so eh.

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You Sure about that second one ;)

The final battle i really didn't think was as well executed, although im seeing it again tomorrow so my mind may change

Way to much was happening without focus on specific characters, and it honestly felt rushed. Especially compared to the amazing end part of infinity war. But yeah even the women ensemble moment didn't get enough time to breathe.

I think the fact it was set in the dark also doesn't help. Colours become muted so you can't even really tell whose fighting what.

 

[Dardan Sandiego]

You Sure about that second one ;)

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That's on me.

 

[lmcfigs]

The problem is definitely the coordination, it makes it feel cheesy/contrived.

In Infinity War they have a scene with a bunch of the women fighting together and it's awesome because it's obviously contrived on the writers part, but the characters aren't deliberately teaming up just to team up, it's happening "randomly" on the battlefield.

In Endgame, the way the shot is staged features all the women coming out of the woodwork in a way that seems really forced (mostly because no dudes are doing it at the same time)- if it had instead been more of a single-shot montage sequence of the women clearing a path for Carol without the characters being self-aware of it, it wouldn't have that weird meta aspect to it that takes you out of the moment. It feels contrived because it breaks the character agency illusion and the puppet strings show.

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I felt like it was more contrived in infinity war since all the women were teaming up to fight a single female villain. here it did feel more random. some happen to be fighting on the ground and others are dodging missiles. I thought it was natural here.

 

[Puck Beaverton]

the entire movie is honestly a victory lap and built to service the fans (fan service if you will).

 

[DigitalOp]

Cap, Shellhead and Thor team up to fight Thanos and no one bats an eye.

The women stand next to each other for 10 second and some people are crying that it’s “forced”. Fuck ‘em.

In this crazy, 3 hour long movie with wild shit happening every 10 minutes THIS is the scene that people say is unrealistic. C’mon. If you have a problem with that, that’s a “you” problem.

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Straight up. My issue is I wanted MORE of that shit, 43 secs was such a tease

 

[Lexad]

Saw it twice. Thursday night crowd sort of cheered, tepid during the Friday afternoon showing. I get it and appreciated it. But yeah all 20 women just showing up right there was super contrived

 

[Colin Robinson]

Straight up. My issue is I wanted MORE of that shit, 43 secs was such a tease

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Absolutely. I want A-Force. I want the Ultimates. I want She-Hulk. I want it all.

 

[Moara]

My only problem with that scene was why tf was mantis there lmao

Dope scene otherwise

 

[BassForever]

I wish the scene was longer, but I would have watched a 15 minute scene of any and every possible combination of mcu characters team up for a big fight scene.

 

[Deleted member 3897]

Straight up. My issue is I wanted MORE of that shit, 43 secs was such a tease

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Good thing none of them are dead then.

Endgame was a film about the og 6 avengers.

 

[Mirage]

I liked it.

 

[DigitalOp]

the entire movie is honestly a victory lap and built to service the fans (fan service if you will).

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My argument is Marvel Ladies fan service 100% outweighs Ronin fan service here

 

[Rover]

I question whether any action sequence in a movie like this feels "contrived" and only this one is a problem because it was too female or not female enough.

I am happy if people liked it. It's better than nothing. However, as a statement and a "victory lap" for women in the MCU? Marvel hasn't earned it and I hope this is not the best they can do.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Legit the idea that it felt forced doesn't even ring for me.... it took me most of the scene time to actually just see that it was all women.... I started taking in everyone and went holy shit awesome... then it was over.... That'snot force, that's fan service that works with the narrative

 

[Nooblet]

See no matter how valid your criticism sounds the simple fact is, if it was all men no one would question it...NO ONE. Even if it was underdeveloped.
Look at the Clint scene you mentioned yourself, it's pointless overall and very out of place when you consider his character for the rest of the film as it doesn't even matter (the Rhodey dialogue about massacre in mexico would be enough) but no one questions how underdeveloped it is. No one also seemed to question when heroes magically got together in other films, despite being far away, for a hero shot.

No one had an issue with the extra convenience of Thor teleportating to Wakanda and his axe getting exactly those enemies that were pinning down his friends across the whole battlefield even before he got out of the rainbow. That's very "forced" and "convenient" placement too...but no one ever spoke of it. No one ever spoke of how convenient it was that Thanos waited while everyone is making their portal entrance slowly. Or how convenient it was that Thor despite being the ruler of Asgard was doing run of the mill spy missions for Shield at start of AoU etc.

That is why talking about this specific scene so much makes it problematic no matter how valid your complaint is.

 

[Christor]

The staging of it bothered me but i was still fine with it. A lot of girls, especially my gf, were so excited to see them together.

 

[Deleted member 6223]

I loved it personally, just wish it were longer. I do understand the criticisms from others, though.

 

[Deleted member 32561]

She was putting to sleep the giant beasts, you can see her in the scene where Thor and Cap traded the hammers

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... I am incredibly fucking mad with myself for missing this. That's awesome. Price I pay for going 3D and being bewildered by everything aaaaah.

Still would've been nice for her to contribute in the girl power scene though.

 

[DigitalOp]

Good thing none of them are dead then.

Endgame was a film for the og 6 avengers.

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Its a 3 hour film. lol. Nobody is stepping on OG Avenger toes by having Marvel Women kick ass for 5 mins in the big battle.

Legit the idea that it felt forced doesn't even ring for me.... it took me most of the scene time to actually just see that it was all women.... Istarted taking in everyone and went holy shit awesome... then it was over.... That'snot force, that's fan service that works with the narrative

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I think a lot of people aren't understanding what I'm actually criticizing about this scene, they kinda telling on themselves. This thread has nothing to do with me feeling it was 'forced or contrived'. Im saying Marvel should have made this moment bigger than what it was.

 

[VaporSnake]

It came across as forced because they were clearly making up for the fact that all women outside of widow in the movie were basically pushed to the sidelines for the majority of the film. It was a cool scene but it came across as a consolation prize.

 

[Flaurehn]

My only problem with that scene was why tf was mantis there lmao

Dope scene otherwise

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As I said, I didn't see her during that sequence (oh well, I'll need to se the movie other 5 times then lol) but she was putting to sleep the giant beasts during the battle, while she doesn't have combat abilities the girl was taming whole planets years before the movie

 

[Strangelove_77]

Why would people notice this? It didn’t even cross my mind that this was a specific attempt by Marvel to “do a thing.” It just seemed like it was just another piece of the puzzle that’s the third act. I didn’t know they were singled out like that.

And now that I think about it, they’re not the “real” Avengers. They’re the ones that got the most screentime . And that’s including Black Widow. Is there a negative to what Black Widow does in the movie yet? Have people come up with something controversial or that seemed anti-women about it yet?

 

[Ogodei]

I tend to agree. I think the movie did a great job with its women, showing them in a variety of life-roles, impacting the plot in many different ways, but that specific scene just felt like everything grinding to a halt for them to fete Carol as the she-hero.

And, selfishly, they get Valkyrie and Carol that close and don't have them interact at all. Boo.

 

[Sega Dreamcast]

It came off as corny to me. Like Marvel is rushing in to cash in on girl power after ignoring women for so many films.