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I was recently exposed to Michael Bay's Transformers and I have a newfound appreciation for Good Character Designs
- Thread starter Garlador
- Start date
They were getting a mainstream blockbuster film out of the deal, possibly one of the best toy advertisements you could ask for. I'm sure they were more than willing to capitulate to Bay/Paramount's demands. Also, the movie toylines were about 70% Optimus and Bumblebee by volume, so it's not like they cared to have a lot of distict designs on store shelves.
You're right, but it's kind of unfair not to mention that there were a ton of very distinct characters. Often stupidly so, like the Constructicon that was a huge thing on a giant wheel... and then I think they just reused him in a later fight, and they clearly just copy-pasted in models from the first movie, and...
Well. Starscream and Megatron were super poor designs, but Barricade was pretty good, Blackout was great (those blades on his back really gave him a silhouette), Brawl was fine. Only Jazz was a little messy but he was the only small silvery thing on the Autobot side.
Dark of the Moon really stopped giving a shit. They didn't even transform anymore, they just vaguely morphed into a new form. They barely gave the characters names. I think that's part of the problem, when the movie doesn't even care what the characters are, why should the audience?
Well. Starscream and Megatron were super poor designs, but Barricade was pretty good, Blackout was great (those blades on his back really gave him a silhouette), Brawl was fine. Only Jazz was a little messy but he was the only small silvery thing on the Autobot side.
Dark of the Moon really stopped giving a shit. They didn't even transform anymore, they just vaguely morphed into a new form. They barely gave the characters names. I think that's part of the problem, when the movie doesn't even care what the characters are, why should the audience?
Action scenes were completely unreadable. You had this piles of gray moving junk, shape shifting as a mass, fighting with each other with no possible way of knowing what they were doing.
Terrible designs and terrible movies. OP is completely spot on.
Maybe I interpret things different visually or something, but people say this a lot and I didn't see that at all. I can get not knowing who's who due to the colors and designs being similar, but the actual action itself was pretty easy to follow and had some really awesome setpieces.
100% agree, and that's the main reason I never watched any of these movies despite Transformers being my favorite show as a kid.
You're missing what has some of the best high octane robot action in a western film, so there's that. The designs are messy, but you still get Optimus Prime beheading fools with an energon broadsword and Megatron unleashing a gundam cannon in downtown LA.
They sold out across multiple continents and they'd produced more stock than they had for any previous or thereafter version of transformers.
The Bayformers Optimus is like design vomit, but the Bumblebee version is so damn good.
wait WHAT????? They changed the character designs????
oh man now I'm going to watch Bumblebee..... I thought it was going to be the same old crazy shit.
They don't actually transform though. Also they had the Prime toys to go to.
OP
OP
I'll disagree. Is the action frenetic, fast, and non-stop? Sure.
But in terms of being memorable? I have a few other robot action films I've seen that FAR surpass them.
Movies like Pacifica Rim and Real Steel are still highly underrated, even if they are beloved. I can remember every blow, every strike. I feel the weight of them. The camera tracks all the shots expertly so they linger in your head and become far more than just exploding noise. They're easy to follow, paced extremely well, and everything happening is serving a purpose of moving the narrative forward.
When you factor in ANIMATED robot fights, then you get a TON of great ones.
Using traditional animation might be cheating, but they lay the principals of good action regardless. But being able to memorably and easily track a fight scene is so vital to a lot of viewers, like myself, no matter if it's robots, monsters, or people. I'd much rather watch Jackie Chan fight with a steady camera and all major players in the frame...
... than a non-stop frenetic camera-spinning screen-cluttering mind-numbing "it's just so dense" action scenes.
(it's just a fence...)
I actually like the movie designs. They're unique in terms of giant robot designs.
In regards to them all being humanoid, they really weren't. ROTF may have been a cruddy movie, but it did have a lot of non-humanoid designs. The bike sisters, for example. Ugly? Yep. But humanoid? Not really. Almost all of the Constructicons were non humanoid. You had a pogo stick mech whose toy also had a crab mode, you had Demolishor who was the big wheel thing, Hightower is a bizarre dinosaur looking monstrosity. There was also Ravage, the Reedman nanomachine construct he barfed out, the insects, and the little doctor that turned into a microscope. He was a spider. The woefully under used Dreads in Dark of the Moon also had Hatchet who was a quadruped, though I think he may have been the only non-humanoid in that movie outside of the Driller.
In regards to them all being humanoid, they really weren't. ROTF may have been a cruddy movie, but it did have a lot of non-humanoid designs. The bike sisters, for example. Ugly? Yep. But humanoid? Not really. Almost all of the Constructicons were non humanoid. You had a pogo stick mech whose toy also had a crab mode, you had Demolishor who was the big wheel thing, Hightower is a bizarre dinosaur looking monstrosity. There was also Ravage, the Reedman nanomachine construct he barfed out, the insects, and the little doctor that turned into a microscope. He was a spider. The woefully under used Dreads in Dark of the Moon also had Hatchet who was a quadruped, though I think he may have been the only non-humanoid in that movie outside of the Driller.
Bumblebee is directed by Travis Knight who made the great Stop motion Kubo
As a result while personally movie is ok and looks great next to Bayformers, it has more heart and humanity than the Bayformers combined
Also the two decepticons bad guys >>>>>> any of the previous villains and those two are not complex they just feel like actual characters
Keep in mind the movie is a maybe reboot or maybe prequel depending on how the executives like it and reshoots added stuff that contradict previous movies because they leaning more into reboot but honestly Bay retcon shit every movie
OP
OP
Yeah, new creative team, new director.
One that really loved the original versions of the characters.
The Bayformers Optimus is like design vomit, but the Bumblebee version is so damn good.
The bumblebee version is the perfect version of Optimus. It's how I always invisioned in my mind at childhood.
It's sad that Bay doesn't get as much shit as Snyder does he basically did the same thing, with even worse designs.
Never forget the ogre TMNT either he must've came up with.
Never forget the ogre TMNT either he must've came up with.
OP
OP
Not just Optimus... look at all these sexy fellows.
I instantly know who EVERY ONE of these guys are. They're old friends.
How hard is that to give?! Goddamn there's an entire Transformers universe and we have locked then up in Earth so we can stare at Megan Fox or something.
Considering they have to sell toys, Bayformers must've been a mess to create toys for.
Only people who talk about Blitzwing are salty starscream fans
Dropckick and Shatter though
Not just Optimus... look at all these sexy fellows.
I instantly know who EVERY ONE of these guys are. They're old friends.
Goddamn original Transformer movie remake in cgi fucking plz.
I used to do a lot of Transformers artwork, even designed a bunch of official statues in the early-mid 2000's. Once the movie hit I lost interest. The movie designs are super fucking tedious to draw and I feel great sympathy for any artist who had to represent them in comics.
They did these flip change things that transform in like 2 moves and I threw up in my mouth a little bit.
It's the same with 3D game art, I call it the "zbrush effect", where because it's so easy for an artist to add detail to the nth degree, they do so without ever stopping to see how all that extra detail harms the readability of a character.
All the artwork starts showing the same look because a lot of those same artists are populating the same forums, how-to pages and seminars.
The Bayformers are terrible, terrible character designs, breaking all the rules of what a good character design should be.
Someone once described those designs as "looking like someone threw the contents of a toolbox at the camera" everytime the characters were involved in a particularly busy scene.
All the artwork starts showing the same look because a lot of those same artists are populating the same forums, how-to pages and seminars.
The Bayformers are terrible, terrible character designs, breaking all the rules of what a good character design should be.
Someone once described those designs as "looking like someone threw the contents of a toolbox at the camera" everytime the characters were involved in a particularly busy scene.
The Bumblebee Movie extras are all kitbashes of main character models re-arranged and recolored with superfluous details thrown on top to make them resemble the G1 characters.
Shockwave is mostly parts of Optimus. His model still has an Autobot symbol on his arm for god's sake. Soundwave is the most egregious, in that he's a bunch of square looking model parts arranged in a mostly Soundwave-like shape with no consideration of what he might turn into at all.
The G1 characters all felt like they were carried more by their voice actors and writing than their designs, honestly. Between the fact that they were all repurposed from another toyline and then reimagined through the eyes of Floro Dery, who made a lot of them look like people wearing cardboard boxes, didn't didn't do them any favors. Like, what about Starscream and his silhouette or colorscheme implies "villain"? He's white, red, and blue because the Jet Robo in G1 gave him those colors.
Now contrast with his design in Transformers Prime. He's designed to be thin, weasely looking, his head is skull like, and he has claws, and his feet splay like out like the talons of a bird. His character designer has stated his torso is meant to look like the hood of a cobra. HERE is good character design, befitting a classical villain.
And while the Bay designs have their problems, I feel you aren't giving them enough credit, OP. For one thing, many of these characters are beholden to the colors of their alt modes. Secondly, there's the fact that for the first time, for many of the first movie's designs, actual consideration is given to things like scale. Starscream is a jet, which is much larger than a car. So he can visibly interact without towering over everyone, he basically folds in on himself and becomes wider instead of taller, so he can be of comparable height to the Decepticons and Autobots.
Furthermore, the movie gave us some of the first designs to experiment with characters having robot modes other than humanoid ones. They're absolutely wasted due to lack of character focus, but things like the pogo stick-based Constructicon and the DOTM Decepticon that turned from a SUV to a lion like beast were wonderfully refreshing.
There's a lot of stinkers in the movies, don't get me wrong, but there's some merit there too. And unfortunately, Bumblebee seems to have abandoned a lot of the practical things the previous movies did to feel more grounded. Blitzwing flies like Superman in robot mode where previous movies had jet based Transformers become grounded and less aerodynamic in robot mode, his robot mode is far too small for his vehicle mode, Shatter and Dropkick convert from robots into cars into jets and helicopters who should rightly be much larger than the other modes they have. Stuff like that feels disappointing when the opposite approach at least made them feel a bit more physically real before.
Shockwave is mostly parts of Optimus. His model still has an Autobot symbol on his arm for god's sake. Soundwave is the most egregious, in that he's a bunch of square looking model parts arranged in a mostly Soundwave-like shape with no consideration of what he might turn into at all.
The G1 characters all felt like they were carried more by their voice actors and writing than their designs, honestly. Between the fact that they were all repurposed from another toyline and then reimagined through the eyes of Floro Dery, who made a lot of them look like people wearing cardboard boxes, didn't didn't do them any favors. Like, what about Starscream and his silhouette or colorscheme implies "villain"? He's white, red, and blue because the Jet Robo in G1 gave him those colors.
Now contrast with his design in Transformers Prime. He's designed to be thin, weasely looking, his head is skull like, and he has claws, and his feet splay like out like the talons of a bird. His character designer has stated his torso is meant to look like the hood of a cobra. HERE is good character design, befitting a classical villain.
And while the Bay designs have their problems, I feel you aren't giving them enough credit, OP. For one thing, many of these characters are beholden to the colors of their alt modes. Secondly, there's the fact that for the first time, for many of the first movie's designs, actual consideration is given to things like scale. Starscream is a jet, which is much larger than a car. So he can visibly interact without towering over everyone, he basically folds in on himself and becomes wider instead of taller, so he can be of comparable height to the Decepticons and Autobots.
Furthermore, the movie gave us some of the first designs to experiment with characters having robot modes other than humanoid ones. They're absolutely wasted due to lack of character focus, but things like the pogo stick-based Constructicon and the DOTM Decepticon that turned from a SUV to a lion like beast were wonderfully refreshing.
There's a lot of stinkers in the movies, don't get me wrong, but there's some merit there too. And unfortunately, Bumblebee seems to have abandoned a lot of the practical things the previous movies did to feel more grounded. Blitzwing flies like Superman in robot mode where previous movies had jet based Transformers become grounded and less aerodynamic in robot mode, his robot mode is far too small for his vehicle mode, Shatter and Dropkick convert from robots into cars into jets and helicopters who should rightly be much larger than the other modes they have. Stuff like that feels disappointing when the opposite approach at least made them feel a bit more physically real before.
Not just Optimus... look at all these sexy fellows.
I instantly know who EVERY ONE of these guys are. They're old friends.
Is Bumblebee any good?
Lol
I remember when people got salty whr
.
Besides the robots over design, the scripts were also a mess, the characterization is terrible.
e.g.:
Regardless of him turning coats, I can't understand how Sentinel Prime (a looked upon hero) would wield a weapon that not only is an 'one-hit kill', but also causes an extremely painful, slow, awful death.
e.g.:
Regardless of him turning coats, I can't understand how Sentinel Prime (a looked upon hero) would wield a weapon that not only is an 'one-hit kill', but also causes an extremely painful, slow, awful death.
The reason things like the Bayformers happen is that we live in a system that doesn't prioritize in bringing in the best people suited for the job but the ones that can fake good enough that they're the best people.
They did these flip change things that transform in like 2 moves and I threw up in my mouth a little bit.
That's one the simpler toys they designed for kids that were easy to Transform
Stuff like the Studio series realize these designs far better
Honestly, they've never had much trouble with designing toys of movie characters. The limitations have come from not being able to see the finished designs because they're designing the toys while the movie is in development. Stuff like the Studio Series, which deals with the finished looks of each character, don't have that issue as much.
I agree the designs are mostly pretty cool, although as designs for the characters they're supposed to be they're terrible. If you just consider them new unrelated characters (not an unprecedented thing in the TF franchise), they're certainly impressive in some respects. The Bay-directed movies themselves are still 100% putrid trash, though, even if ILM gives 110% on those robot effects every time.
This scene just looks like crap anyway. It also really exemplifies how the effects they use are really nice looking, but nothing has any weight to it whatsoever. They just kind of float on the scene and have zero depth. It also doesn't help that they went with that goddamned circling camera shot that every movie wants to do since TDK.
I dislike the Bayformer movies as much as the next guy, but Transformers was all about cool looking robots fighting each other that would make for great toys and merchandise. If Michael Bay WAS able to turn this kids cartoon into a tragic war about sentient robots murdering each other, that would be dope.
But uh.... that's not what we got.
Some designs I like, some definitely need improvement.
But, weird person that I am, movie 1 Megatron is my favorite out of all the movies and I'll go to the grave still thinking so.
But, weird person that I am, movie 1 Megatron is my favorite out of all the movies and I'll go to the grave still thinking so.
They just took the easy way out. Animating an actual transformation from car to humanoid robot is way more difficult than making a morphing mess of swirling metal parts.
The actual toys were really ingeniously made - and transformed in a mechanical and logical way.
Beyond the atrocious designs, the cinematography is one of the worst I've ever seen - literally headache inducing.
This isn't solely endemic to the Michael Bay movies
Watch Transformers: The Movie. Hot Rod transforms several different ways throughout the movie. In the G1 cartoon, Ironhide and Ratchet's transformations are categorically impossible and involve their vehicle mode parts dramatically changing in size to produce a robot mode that shows very little of the actual vehicle mode. Beast Wars Dinobot's transformation has his head swelling to the size of his very broad chest and whole portions of his vehicle mode disappearing behind him.
Yeah. And the third film had some fucking INSANE action. 2 was shit but that Optimus fight in the forest was pretty awesome too.
Sure, Bay is fantastic at moments and crazy spectacle set-pieces. I just feel incomprehensible pointless but epic spectacle is bad action, regardless of how cool it looks. Like I enjoy a lot of moments throughout the Transformers movies but I would never rewatch them or classify their sequences as well-made action.
Good visual design for animation is so undervalued, especially for CGI that's blended over live action footage.
OP
OP
Look, that has nothing on Soundwave. We didn't care.
Soundwave grows in size. It's an ability he has. That's not really the same as all of Ironhide's van parts suddenly sliding into his back and disappearing.