IAAF to argue that Caster Semenya should classified as a “biological male" at CAS (Update: Semenya loses case) [See Staff Post]

Kiekura

Member
Mar 23, 2018
1,549
I don't think she should have to take medication if she doesn't want to.

Is fast twitch muscles next? Sorry, you got too many?
Thats a bad comparison. We have women's and men's leagues, because men have biologically pretty big physical advantage because of testosterone. Casters levels are on same level with men so it isn't really fair that she competes with women when she have testosterone levels as high as men, even tough it isn't her fault she have so high levels. Then we could argue that we could let men compete in women's league too?
 

Kiekura

Member
Mar 23, 2018
1,549
I'm not sure I follow... I'm not suggesting you'd be on the same level as when you were taking TRT, just that you'd potentially have a lasting benefit compared with having never taken it. That is what t he links in my second message strongly indicate.
Ahh ok. Well I don't think she has any more advantage after she supress her levels. It has already been shown
 

MrOblong

Member
Oct 27, 2017
46
I totally understand where you’re coming from but my limited understanding of the issue is that those supposed advantages from earlier exposure to testosterone have not been shown to confer a current advantage if the IOC guidelines with regards to HRT are followed. Mechanistically it makes “sense” that they would have an advantage to due to increases in myonuclei and “muscle memory” but the current evidence doesn’t show that to be the case apparently.
With respect (especially because I also have limited understanding), I don't see that that evidence shared in this thread and I've not otherwise seen it.

As a knock-on point, this is only one aspect of the debate. As several posters have highlighted, genetic variation is part and parcel of humanity and indeed that is reflected in elite level sporting competition. Anyone who is the Xth best anything in the world is by any definition an insane outlier. Why we focus on some aspects of what makes people outliers (how people view Phelps' arm length vs Semenya's hormones) seems to be a product of social biases (including outright prejudice) and the specific sex-separated coding of most sporting competition.
 
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srsly?

Member
Feb 24, 2018
2,490
Cis people love to litigate/decide what trans people should and should not be allowed to be/do.

Evidence: this IAAF decision and multiple ERA threads.
 

TatteredHat

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,686
I feel like i am way too underqualified to have a proper opinion on these kinds of issues, i trust that the scientific studies are true and i hope the organizations do the right thing
 

Farfetch'd

Coward
Oct 26, 2017
5,552
imo they should just let it be. she's going to be too old for competition very soon and whatever causes her high testosterone levels is obviously extremely rare.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,894
Nottingham, UK
Ofc there are tests. Just look how much bigger her TRT levels are compared to others.



That difference is abysmal. These differences in TRT levels are actually really big.

And yeah this sucks for Caster, but i also understand why they are doing this. She has so huge advantage
It's called doping tests
you're describing doping tests which obviously are happning to all athletes.
Ta, I should have figured hormones would be a core component of regular testing

There really should be further research funded regarding this as, as stated, it is discriminatory.

Though the way society in general fights against the transgender community as well as in cases such as these likely shows that we have a long way to go
 

Kiekura

Member
Mar 23, 2018
1,549
Ta, I should have figured hormones would be a core component of regular testing

There really should be further research funded regarding this as, as stated, it is discriminatory.

Though the way society in general fights against the transgender community as well as in cases such as these likely shows that we have a long way to go
She isn't transgender. She has Hyperandrogenism. So she just naturally have more male hormones than woman usually have. Her TRT levels are three times higher than other women and those levels are similar to men's level.
 

KarneeKarnay

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,975
Like men who had no control over their sex are penalized and can't compete in female sporting events?

Female sports exist for a reason, it's to give that half of population a space to compete. And allowing an athelete with male level testosterone is counterproductive to that point , and to trans atheletes as well since they have to lower their natural testosterone well below that level.
You're not arguing my point though. There are tons of athletes with genetic advantages that make them better than others. Michael Phelps is literally abnormal. He has a genetic advantage when it comes to swimming than most others. This woman is in the exact same position. If you are wiling to force a rule in one case why aren't you consistent with the other.

Should small people who right horse be penalised for being better suited to ride? Should people with big hands be penalised for playing basketball?

With trans athletes I can understand the rule, because you do need to ensure a mostly level playing. However to be an athlete, to be an Olympian, isn't just being able to do what anyone else can, it's being able to do something better than anyone else. Your argument is that because a woman was born with an advantage, we should punish them.
 

Nishastra

Member
Oct 27, 2017
168
Utter trash, and very telling that the response to this on Twitter has been so overwhelmingly transphobic, considering that Caster isn't even trans.

People love to proclaim "the science checks out!" whenever something like this comes up, even though they clearly don't know anything about the science (or, in this case, the basic facts).
 

Crocks

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
963
Disappointing to see the same mod post as last time copy and pasted, despite it being significantly misleading.
 

doodlewhizz

Member
Jan 9, 2019
928
I find it completely bizarre that the IAAF admitted to the rule being discriminatory, but they decided to uphold the rule.

Really, really poor judgement by the CAS.

It's also very apparent that this rule is targeting her specifically - the fact that they only affect distances from 400m to 1 mile, and not all female events where other athletes also have higher testosterone levels (which would be bad as well, don't get me wrong) is definitely deliberate
 

Crocks

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
963
User Banned (1 Month): Transphobic rhetoric, ignoring staff post, and history of modwhining
It was a very limited study (it involved 8 people), with very limited conclusions that don't justify this:

Based on the established criteria by the International Olympics Committee, their panel of expert scientists and physicians, and the study by Joanna Harper, and the collaborating studies, Resetera policy is that anyone concern posting about genetic advantages by transgender women in competitive sports or claiming transgender women have genetic advantages will be treated as transphobia and/or spreading misinformation on a sensitive issue and moderated appropriately. We have no interest in allowing ignorance to thrive in these threads, nor do we wish to place an undue burden on our transgender community to educate people in threads like these. This policy will be enforced from this post onward and in any future threads or posts on this subject.
Joanna Harper herself doesn't come close to this conclusion: She effectively says that in some sports it won't have an effect, in others it will. This isn't controversial - it's quite clearly self evident that this won't track across the board. Joanna herself gives the example of how transition therapies won't make you shorter - and this might aid you if you're transitioning as a basketball player, but cause you to lose out if you're transitioning as a gymnast. Her study was very small - and unfortunately it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation, because you simply don't have many trans athletes whom you can study because it's so relatively hostile. This makes it very difficult to find study groups. But Harper's is a limited, small study whose conclusion is specifically about running, and more broadly that some effects are nullified, others aren't and thus the comparative advantage will vary from sport to sport. This is Harper's *own* conclusion.

As such, the idea that "anyone concern posting about genetic advantages by transgender women in competitive sports or claiming transgender women have genetic advantages will be treated as transphobia and/or spreading misinformation" is ludicrous.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,894
Nottingham, UK
It was a very limited study (it involved 8 people), with very limited conclusions that don't justify this:



Joanna Harper herself doesn't come close to this conclusion: She effectively says that in some sports it won't have an effect, in others it will. This isn't controversial - it's quite clearly self evident that this won't track across the board. Joanna herself gives the example of how transition therapies won't make you shorter - and this might aid you if you're transitioning as a basketball player, but cause you to lose out if you're transitioning as a gymnast. Her study was very small - and unfortunately it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation, because you simply don't have many trans athletes whom you can study because it's so relatively hostile. This makes it very difficult to find study groups. But Harper's is a limited, small study whose conclusion is specifically about running, and more broadly that some effects are nullified, others aren't and thus the comparative advantage will vary from sport to sport. This is Harper's *own* conclusion.

As such, the idea that "anyone concern posting about genetic advantages by transgender women in competitive sports or claiming transgender women have genetic advantages will be treated as transphobia and/or spreading misinformation" is ludicrous.
It's a mod ruling. Deal with it
 

Septy

Member
Nov 29, 2017
1,026
United States
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Mods can make rulings on things for the betterment of a forum, by all means question or ignore the ruling
I agree it’s good that they’re trying to ban people from posting blatant transphobic stuff about trans athletes. But their basis for it is flawed and makes no sense. They’re treating these studies as if they’re complete fact without even completely reading them but that’s not how science works. As a biologist it’s a shame to see people cut up studies to fit their personal views when these two things should be completely separate.
 
Dec 5, 2018
1,296
She isn't transgender. She has Hyperandrogenism. So she just naturally have more male hormones than woman usually have. Her TRT levels are three times higher than other women and those levels are similar to men's level.
So what? So she has Hyperandrogenism which may or may not give her an advantage? Boo fucking hoo.

This is discrimination.
 

Septy

Member
Nov 29, 2017
1,026
United States

Ravensmash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,778
Not sure why this turned into a trans debate when it shouldn’t have. I think people saw biological male, defines as female, testosterone etc and assumed that this ruling is about trans athletes. The mod post isn’t helping either.
Yes, I said as much earlier.

It feels like it was just dumped in here lazily.
 

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
5,489
Austria
Well it kinda looks it has given her advantage and we are not talking about small advantage. And it is not Boo fucking Hoo to those who need to compete against her.
I mean.. It's a naturally occurring genetic advantage. Why would regulations apply, just because we know the cause?
Maybe it's a myth, but don't Olympic top runners all share some mutation as well?
 

TheOMan

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,558
So - if I understand correctly, this is a woman who has a condition that gives her higher than "normal" testosterone and the ruling is to specifically discriminate against her and people like her? Is that correct?

If so, that's complete garbage.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,756
That staff post is a bit odd. Nothing in the cited study refutes the idea that testosterone does not provide advantages. All it does is say that males transitioning to females won't have advantages after 12 months of hormone therapy.

That could be read in such a way as to support the case against Caster Semenya, whose body naturally provides levels of testosterone significantly higher than other competitors. I have a difficult time reconciling this with the Dutee Chand case that stated women don't gain advantages with testosterone.

So what? So she has Hyperandrogenism which may or may not give her an advantage? Boo fucking hoo.

This is discrimination.
Yeah, of course it is. But it seems they consider it necessary so as to not allow for one competitor to have a significant biological advantage over the majority. The kind of advantage that would require her competitors to take artificial variations of what she gets naturally. They're not allowed to do that so it stands to (their reason) that the outliers should be expected to reduce their own natural levels to within the averages expected of female athletes.
 
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Parthenios

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
3,439
Do sports commissions ever ban individual people "for the health of the meta" (like banning a card in Magic the Gathering)? Like, you're such a dominant force in the game that you either win or people have to cheat to compete with you, here's a lifetime achievement award, but we've retired you?

Or ban teams, because who wants to watch another Patriots super bowl?

Would that be preferable to what is happening here?
 

Birdseye

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
10,840
Do sports commissions ever ban individual people "for the health of the meta" (like banning a card in Magic the Gathering)? Like, you're such a dominant force in the game that you either win or people have to cheat to compete with you, here's a lifetime achievement award, but we've retired you?

Or ban teams, because who wants to watch another Patriots super bowl?

Would that be preferable to what is happening here?
Some running competitions in Italy are banning professional African runners/teams because they come, win all the prizes and leave to the next marathon
 

spyder_ur

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,711
The sports scientist Ross Tucker, who was part of Semenya’s team of experts at Cas last month, believes it will mean the South African will run 800m around seven seconds slower – turning her from a world beater into an also-ran at that event.
Of of curiosity, how can one come to such a specific conclusion around the impact? Is it through analyzing testosterone levels compared to performance in various races?

Does this have the potential to be used as precedent in non-Olympic events? What I gather is the openly discriminatory nature of this ruling, against Semenya, is both troubling and limiting in scope.
 

Dragon's Game

Alt account
Banned
Apr 1, 2019
1,624
I have a really simple concept

how about we abolish woman's sports and just have co-ed sports.. Men and Women are allowed to compete with each other in any sport

why not just have that