The pain of knowing the creator of the universe was an evil despot whom I chose to follow would turn the taste of heaven to ashes.
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If the Christian God really did prove himself would that really make some atheist start following him?
- Thread starter Deepthought_
- Start date
The pain of knowing the creator of the universe was an evil despot whom I chose to follow would turn the taste of heaven to ashes.
I don't doubt this claim, but it means Christianity has a PR problem. I hear less "fire and brimstone" these days to be sure, but it still pops up, and to me, it's a driving force to not be religious at all.
But the hypocracy that the most devout don't know their own book amuses me so :V
Seems like the right answer. Always makes me think of that video :
That being said, if it comes with the certainty of an afterlife, there is no doubt the proof of his/her/it's existance would change the way most of the world live their life.
The people sipped their wine
And what with God there, they asked him questions
Like, do you have to eat
Or get your hair cut in heaven?
And if your eye got poked out in this life
Would it be waiting up in heaven with your wife?
God shuffled his feet and glanced around at them
The people cleared their throats and stared right back at him
And what with God there, they asked him questions
Like, do you have to eat
Or get your hair cut in heaven?
And if your eye got poked out in this life
Would it be waiting up in heaven with your wife?
God shuffled his feet and glanced around at them
The people cleared their throats and stared right back at him
What makes you think God even requires the slavish worship you seem to imply here?
The proof of his existence doesn't acutally change much by itself.
And you bet i wouldn't worship a god that lets children starve.
So the Milky Way and countless billions of other galaxies were created by God if enough people on Earth believe it so? Don't the ants get a vote?
I'm an atheist because I find the notion of there being a higher power to be completely absurd. So if that higher power did reveal themselves then obviously I would believe they existed.
I would happily believe in God if it was proven. I wouldnt necessarily start following him and his teachings though.
You missed the point.
I'm saying that, regardless whether or not God actually exists, the fact that so many people think one does, means that a lot of the systems in place which affect our lives are a direct result of that.
You live in a world that's already affected by the supposition of a God, whether it's substantiated or not.
The ants don't get a say.
And if God told you to kill your kids as a condition to get into heaven? Would you follow him?
It is God, not you who decides. If he believes Timmy in his heart of hearts doesn't love God, yo the pits of hell with Timmy. So would you abandon your kid to enter heaven?
Because God told you as a condition of showing your love to him. Look it up.
Mhmm...
I was pointing more to the kinds of people atheists and agnostics have brushed shoulders with.
We also have to remember we live in a day and age where most people can't(choose not to) even hold conversations based on opposing views without forms of malice or bitterness thrown in. So you can only imagine how many "holier than thou" or semi-good natured fool rolled up on them and just started tossing bullet points.
No conversation. No interest in the person's well being. No genuine concern for their immediate life situation or thought process. Basically just talking at people. Can only get burned so many times. It's really annoying.
Even if the Christian god popped up, there's still the question of Heaven and Hell. You won't know conclusively until you die, regardless of what the deity says. In fact - you don't know what's true and what's not true in terms of most of what the god is all about because of the many versions of "God's Word" put out there via the Christian Bible, other sacred texts, and religious teachings.
So basically a revealing god needs a checklist if they want to inspire blissfully faithful rather than begrudgingly subordinate:
1. God appears
2. God has to put out his true message and specifically confirm all that was right and deny all that was wrong of the things that faith had established was his will
3. God actually explains why bad things happen to good people - no more Book of Job bullshit
3a. God stops letting bad things happen to good people
4. God establishes a new "contract" with humanity based upon his re-emergence with specific set of his laws including punishments and rewards - hopefully something like a karma meter from a video game that we can get an app on our phone
4. People can STILL legitimately choose to believe or not believe in the extent of his power and any afterlife because there would still only be proof of existence at that point (think Oz)
I dunno though - tbh the whole idea is ludicrous and impossible to discuss without second guessing everything one understands about religions and deities, but I guess that's the point?
So basically a revealing god needs a checklist if they want to inspire blissfully faithful rather than begrudgingly subordinate:
1. God appears
2. God has to put out his true message and specifically confirm all that was right and deny all that was wrong of the things that faith had established was his will
3. God actually explains why bad things happen to good people - no more Book of Job bullshit
3a. God stops letting bad things happen to good people
4. God establishes a new "contract" with humanity based upon his re-emergence with specific set of his laws including punishments and rewards - hopefully something like a karma meter from a video game that we can get an app on our phone
4. People can STILL legitimately choose to believe or not believe in the extent of his power and any afterlife because there would still only be proof of existence at that point (think Oz)
I dunno though - tbh the whole idea is ludicrous and impossible to discuss without second guessing everything one understands about religions and deities, but I guess that's the point?
Believe it or not, I do get to live according to my perception of reality. Scientists still freely communicate the results of their investigations. My religious neighbours, however few they may be, have no effect on my life.
Not necessarily. Depends on what the definition of "hell" is.
Some Christian denominations simply define it as eternal separation from god. As afterlife choices go im perfectly fine with this if the alternative is praising a diety I'm not thrilled with in church for all eternity.
Likewise other sects reject the "eternal torment" business and state instead you'll be cast into a lake of fire and destroyed. Personally i'd prefer oblivion and destruction to ANY form of afterlife that goes on forever. Immortality doesn't interest me.
The "devils chasing you around with pitchforks" version of "hell" doesn't appear anywhere in scripture. That nonsense was made up later in fiction and poetry like Dante's inferno.
I'd try to measure my choices to see if I can hang with Satan instead without all the torture. Im gay so im going to hell anyway, apparently.
God, I know plenty of people think like this, but it's always so jarring to me. Non-existence is horrifying.
Good for them I guess. Hasn't happened since. Old testament, old business
Why do you find it horrifying? You were in a state of non existence for billions of years.
But what will happen if Christian God and Muslim God proved themselves at the same time?
Will you chose a side?
Will you chose a side?
Then consider yourself lucky.
Not everyone gets to avoid the residual effects of theism. Lots have and still are caught in the cross fire of the negative fallout of that belief.
Ask a homosexual atheist whether their non belief has made living a liberated life any easier.
The lack of thought, expression, ambition, emotion, and consciousness that I have now.
Though, sure, an afterlife would be boring, but that's why I'd rather the system be reincarnation. Live different lives with the same consciousness.
Hell, I'd be fine with putting my brain in a robot just to squeeze out some extra years.
Yes, and the religious in contrast are always quick to revise their beliefs and holy books when shown to be wrong.
That sound you hear is my eyes rolling as hard as they possibly can.
a natural reaction for atheists whenever this discussion shows up, I'm sure
Not to mention Job.
God will do with you as he pleases. He will take away your wife and kids because it serve him, and you still must love him more than your fellow human.
Man is to love God before all others. Women are to love God, then their husbands. Child must be submissive to parents, but parents cannot speak for their spouse or offspring heart.
Athiests in this thread are being way more honest than believer. We know we just can't flip a switch in our hearts and love God on demand, despite the choice of heaven or hell. And known the Bible, we know we can't bluff our way/feign love into heaven.
It is. There's no excuse for not taking the time to step outside yourself in order to open the floor up to honest discourse.
This seems kind of sad, and i don't mean that to be mean or condescending.
For me, life only has value BECAUSE it's a temporary thing. You're given a limited amount of time to leave the world a better place than you found it.
Death is a necessary part of the life experience...without it theres no room for other things to be born and grow and have their own unique experience.
When my time is up i prefer to think i made the most of my time that i could with the limited resources i had. Letting go doesn't frighten me at all.
Endlessly existing into infinity with no actual goal or being reincarnated millions of times over and over just sounds tiresome, and more like a fantasy to keep away the fear of nonexistence.
Fapping would never be the same.
But more serious, he (it) would have to explain a lot. And i mean really a lot. Why are these thousands little kids dying a slow painful death from diseases and hunger or getting abused? That just one of many question he would have to give a better answer than what the Bible says...
But more serious, he (it) would have to explain a lot. And i mean really a lot. Why are these thousands little kids dying a slow painful death from diseases and hunger or getting abused? That just one of many question he would have to give a better answer than what the Bible says...
It did not change in the new testment. Everyone is to love God above all else. Women have to love God and submit to their husbands. Why do people think if they go to heaven they will be with their loved ones?
Being reunited is never promised, so I have no clue? And loving God first, and killing my kids are two different things.
I love my wife more than you, Rampage - but if she said that in order to stay married, I'd have to murder you, I'd be getting a divorce (and her a psychiatrist).
If the Christian god made itself clearly manifest, definitely my view of reality would take a huge hit. But behaviorly I am pretty set in my ways and old enough to have a hard time switching modes to be a "good" Christian. I'd probably be bitter and resentful, to be honest. I'd carry on with my regular volunteering and trying to be a good person in general, but it would be in the amount I already do and because I just like helping people. I don't think I'd want to curry favor with the Christian god, and I have the oppositional defiance in the face of authority to refuse to go to church and stuff like that. So I'd be in for whatever interpretation of hell ends up being correct and I'd consider it a flaw in the Christian god's design.
Regarding OP's question...
If the evidence were conclusive that this god existed, my next question would be: why should I follow that god?
Answers I won't accept:
-It's all powerful
-Because it made you
-Because you'll get into heaven
Best answer I can think of:
-Because its all wise
If the evidence were conclusive that this god existed, my next question would be: why should I follow that god?
Answers I won't accept:
-It's all powerful
-Because it made you
-Because you'll get into heaven
Best answer I can think of:
-Because its all wise
If it was real, I would punch it in the squanch. Still wouldn't follow it. All those wars just for you? fuck that.
Then you don't really love God and would not be allowed in heaven. Your kids and wife might if they love God more than you.
The old and new testiment are really clear. It is God before anyone else. He will test you to see if you are sincere. Don't worry, like Job he will give you a new wife and kids.
Yeah, it's an assertion of omniscience which makes it pointless to argue (or rather, futile anyway). Whatever points we're coming up with don't amount to shit since it's our limited intellect against something that has all the answers and forsight and understanding.
A more interesting conversation is the one most atheists in here seem to adhere to. A human-like God, akin to the old testament.
I mean, yeah its sad, but I also don't care very much for giving others new experiences.
I'd be fine existing for no reason because I don't really need a reason. I like being me, I like my own mind, my own relationships, my own experiences. I don't want to define my life by how I could affect others, I want to define my life by experiencing as much as I can. And a definitive end limits how much a person can really experience.
Hell, I'd be 100% okay with all of humanity becoming sterile and undying right this moment, because regardless of new voices, life still changes. When people are bored they experiment, find new hobbies, develop new skills. Every century that passes, each person would likely have developed an entire new set of likes and hobbies and ambitions, and I find that much more interesting than the idea of the cycle of life.
If we're talking about Christianity, then none of what you say applies at all. Last I checked, it's still the acceptance of Jesus that gets you in
...not some arbitrary Saw trap.
If we're not talking about Christianity, and it's simply your interpretation and hypotheticals (based on occurrences recorded in the Bible), then I guess this God can take a back seat.
And what does accepting Jesus entail? You think saying "oh I love you God" is good enough? You don't think an all powerful being is going to check your heart to see if you are lying? People accept Jesus all the time on Earth, and puts them through trials.
So all the rapist and murders get in because they say "I love you Jesus"? I'm to spend an eternity with people who have done evil things, and not the Buddhist who spent their life caring for the sick and the poor just because she does not love Jesus?
I'll go to hell with the Buddhist and you can go to heaven with my rapist. He loves Jesus.
I wouldn't go to church. I don't agree with all of this particular god's doctrines. I assume said god is omniscient so he would know that I'm just paying lip service anyway. Instead, I would continue to live my life helping others. Whether he chooses to damn me or not is up to him.