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Aimi

self-requested ban
Banned
Jan 16, 2021
579
Epic vs. Apple Shows the Courts Were Not Prepared for the Games Industry's Obsessive Secrecy by Rebekah Valentine

Already, there's been an ongoing kerfuffle between lawyers, third parties, and the judge regarding games leaks occurring via court documents. To generalize a bit, exhibits submitted as evidence in court are usually a matter of public record, unless a document is "sealed," meaning it is only visible to a select group of people in court to whom it is relevant. This might be done for a number of reasons — in the case of Epic v. Apple, it's a matter of concern because a lot of the evidence includes internal documents from video game companies that might reference trade secrets, unannounced projects, and so forth. Unfortunately, it's causing a lot of problems for everyone in this particular trial.

It's unclear exactly who dropped the ball in Epic v. Apple, but the trial as a whole keeps hitting stumbling blocks because third-parties are complaining that their classified documents are being leaked to the public via a public folder where all the exhibits are being submitted for perusal. The problem was first apparent yesterday, when over 100 documents submitted to the folder at the start of the day were deleted without explanation, then (mostly) slowly reinstated over the rest of the day. One of the biggest drops of confidential information was caught by The Verge, showing that Sony really, really hated the idea of cross-platform play on its consoles — a line of questioning that was touched upon during Sweeney's cross-examination yesterday, though not in as much detail..

The problems continued today. On the bright side (for gaming companies anyway), whoever is in charge of releasing documents seems to have slowed down a bit and is waiting to make sure they aren't confidential first, though the judge pointed out right out of the gate that it was pointless to re-seal documents that were already leaked. But now there's a new problem: the court keeps getting surprised by on-the-spot, third-party requests for confidentiality. In one amusing exchange early in the day, a piece of evidence was submitted by Apple with the intent of questioning Sweeney about it. However, proceedings were paused as Epic's lawyers pushed back, saying there was confidential information in the document that Epic's third-party partners didn't want either spoken out loud (where anyone listening on a public line could hear it) or entered into public record.

Apple's lawyer argued back, saying this was the first he'd heard of the issue, and that he just wanted to ask questions about Epic Games' business decisions, prompting Epic to respond that they had "only just been alerted to this issue." It was here that Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers finally lost her patience.

"I have received — I don't know what, ten? — motions from third parties asking me to seal information," she said. "I have not received a request with respect to this document."

Leaks were mentioned a few more times in the proceedings today, including one instance where Epic's lawyer once again stepped in to get a single word redacted from a document on the spot. It seems that a number of Epic's third-party partners are stepping in last minute with requests, realizing that their announcements, plans, and trade secrets might be on the line as a gaming audience hungry for news descends upon folders of court exhibits looking for something juicy. It's a testament both to the high-profile nature of Epic v. Apple, but also the bizarre silliness that is the overly secretive games industry, in which a publisher everyone knows was resistant to cross-platform play was mortified anyone might find out it was... very resistant to cross-platform play.

Aside from the secrecy problems, the trial's start has also struggled with a number of more normal technical issues that have nonetheless been exacerbated by the fact that hundreds of gamers are interested in the proceedings. Yesterday, the trial started late in part because the court had to figure out how to mute the public call-in line to stop random callers from yelling "Free Fortnite" (and other less appropriate things) and playing Travis Scott music for everyone to hear — another example of US courts being unprepared for how the games enthusiast populace interacts with things they're interested in.

The Epic v. Apple trial will be ongoing over the next three weeks, and aside from the Sony leaks there have been numerous other weird or fascinating tidbits mined from the examinations and court documents, including how much Fortnite makes and how much Epic spends on exclusives, details about Walmart's attempt at a cloud gaming service, and Epic's plans to put Samus Aran in Fortnite.
 

Jawmuncher

Crisis Dino
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
38,500
Ibis Island
It has been really interesting seeing the internal working of the Game Industry from this case. It definitely adds a layer to how ridiculous the secrecy can be even if it's understandable as to why it is the way it is.
 

DeadlyVenom

Member
Apr 3, 2018
2,778
Valve is probably happy Epic has gone first then. I know they were pretty against the idea of giving Apple the info they wanted for their side. By the time Apple gives their case, they will have cleared this up, you'd think.
 

Windu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,630
Eh idk. Just about every industry is secret. Video Games just have a bigger limelight on the internet.
 

Tbm24

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,315
I'm not sure how this is being interpreted as "Obsessive Secrecy". Why would Sony publicly put out their stance and terms regarding cross play to the degree discovered? What do they have to benefit from that?
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,441
Valve is probably happy Epic has gone first then. I know they were pretty against the idea of giving Apple the info they wanted for their side. By the time Apple gives their case, they will have cleared this up, you'd think.
Six of these were probably Valve:

"I have received — I don't know what, ten? — motions from third parties asking me to seal information," she said
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,995
Yup, we just talked about this in the current Playstation OT.

I know some ppl, companies are sweating bullets right now, lol.
 

Deeke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
966
United States
There's one particular Excel file in that public folder that airs all of Epic's earnings since 2017. It's pretty eye-opening to say the least.
 

Rotimi

Banned
Dec 25, 2017
1,758
Jos , Nigeria
Great article. Honestly with the amount of stuff yesterday I knew this was going to be limited going forward

everyone protests their secrets now
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
The industry's obsession with secrecy is pretty absurd. The fact that lawyers are complaining about and the judge even lost patience about the whole thing really puts it into perspective.
 

GungHo

Member
Nov 27, 2017
6,135
It's not really "obsessive secrecy" to fight an excessively broad discovery process when your entire business is intellectual property.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
Need some Randy Pitchford emails, he probably can't help himself. 160 million, coke and hookers! thx Tim
 

Syriel

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
11,088
It has been really interesting seeing the internal working of the Game Industry from this case. It definitely adds a layer to how ridiculous the secrecy can be even if it's understandable as to why it is the way it is.

Lawyers be all "GOVERNMENTS aren't this paranoid. Y'all are WEIRD."
 

Pankratous

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,256
Other industries aren't secretive? So movie companies would be fine with future movie announcements being leaked via court documents, or upcoming subscription services being leaked ahead of time? I doubt it.
 

aceldama

Member
Jun 8, 2019
518
Every industry is going to have secret but gaming is pretty extraordinary in that all these companies that are competing with each other also interdependent and have to collaborate and share with each other.

Streaming TV/film is probably the only other industry that could be comparable.
 

Kainazzo

Member
Dec 13, 2017
661
I've always felt the level of secrecy in game development far outweighed its own significance. Microsoft and Sony are probably already two generations ahead internally, having spent billions playing with hardware nobody but the brightest minds can even imagine, and games mankind thought were impossible.

Because they sure love spending money on things nobody must ever, ever know about! Not now, not ever. The pieces must never be brought together.
 

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,977
Other industries aren't secretive? So movie companies would be fine with future movie announcements being leaked via court documents, or upcoming subscription services being leaked ahead of time? I doubt it.
Movie industry isn't terribly secretive with movies, they announced stuff years before they go into production a lot. Obviously the games industry won't do that as a game is a lot less likely to make it vs a movie, but the movie industry is far less secretive than the games industry, who like try and keep everything a secret.
 

Kouriozan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,116
I found those document fascinating, I already knew there was something behind the scene about Sony and cross-play because YoshiP kept saying he wanted FF XIV on other platforms and was working hard for that but could never achieve it.
If you check out Nintendo's documents they're mostly redacted lol. They thought ahead.
Nintendo being Nintendo, over-protective as always, haha.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
I don't think any indusrty or company would want stuff like this leaking to be honest. Seems nothing to do with gaming being secretive.
 

Deleted member 16657

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,198
trying to find something about this out of curiosity and coming up empty-handed. what proprietary kickstand thing?

www.ign.com

Walmart Cloud Gaming Service Details Revealed in Epic vs Apple Documents - IGN

Apple vs Epic court documents have revealed further details about Walmart's unreleased game streaming service.

Walmart-streaming-clip.jpg


Among the new details in the emails, Epic Games co-founder Mark Rein sent messages detailing a clip that would attach a phone to a controller, in order for players to use Walmart's system. "They're going to sell the clip for a crazy low amount, they were saying something like $2," said Rein. He notes that the kickstand is the "killer part" of the device, and made it "more comfortable than playing on a Nintendo Switch."
 

Musubi

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
23,611
Its probably the wildest thing about this trial. So many behind the scenes things being exposed. Can't wonder if this trial is going to shake up the video game industry regardless of what the verdict is.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
I found those document fascinating, I already knew there was something behind the scene about Sony and cross-play because YoshiP kept saying he wanted FF XIV on other platforms and was working hard for that but could never achieve it.
Harada would talk about it too and would always bring up that it's a matter of policies from the platform holders.
 

thisismadness

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,446
Movie industry isn't terribly secretive with movies, they announced stuff years before they go into production a lot. Obviously the games industry won't do that as a game is a lot less likely to make it vs a movie, but the movie industry is far less secretive than the games industry, who like try and keep everything a secret.

Yeah, it's standard to know how much a movie cost to make, what the big stars were paid, and how much the movie ultimately made. I do agree that the unannounced products in the leaks are unfair to the companies, but the contract revealing Sony's crossplay fee and the emails should not be a problem
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
One of the major reasons the movie industry is a lot less secretive about a lot of data regarding budgets, how well a film performed, how much actors are paid, etc, is because of unions. The industry relies on a lot of contract work through unions, and they need this data as much as any corporate office. That's why that stuff is more public.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,136
Oh the email had a photo attached and the device had a kickstand so you could set it on a table
www.ign.com

Walmart Cloud Gaming Service Details Revealed in Epic vs Apple Documents - IGN

Apple vs Epic court documents have revealed further details about Walmart's unreleased game streaming service.

Walmart-streaming-clip.jpg
Thanks, I was picturing something like Apple's 1k stand, but apparently it's only $2. So is Walmart still going ahead with this?