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Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/0...hallenges-and-rewards-of-working-with-disney#

Both companies sweat the small stuff...

Naturally, both Disney and Pixar are fairly exacting about how their properties look in someone else's game, but that goes pretty deep. Any recreation of a Disney asset has to be approved, and any change explained. As lead facial animator Kayoko Yajima puts it: "There was actually a lot of pressure to get even the smallest details that you wouldn't even think would be that important to look like they do in the movie."

Cutscene animators seem to have it hardest of all. Square's animators work specifically from documentation given by the various Disney teams, but even then it might not come out precisely enough for the original creators. Yakima continues: "we get requests from Disney and Pixar like, 'we want them to be showing less teeth here,' or 'their eyelids need to move differently,' or 'their line of sight isn't quite right'. Of course, cutscenes are where the soul of the character comes out, so it was something that we put a lot of effort into and adjusted down to the minutiae."

But the crazier the change, the easier it is to get approved

In what might seem like a counter-intuitive approach, Square's found that the more outlandish a change its wants to make to a character, the more likely it is to be approved with little fuss by Disney. The Lion King's Simba, for example, appears as what co-director Tai Yasue calls a "fire entity". It seems like a tall order, but Yasue says they "didn't have a lot of difficulty."

The point is that, if you're changing the character enough, it's no longer imitating Disney. "He's not Simba", he explains. "So we showed Disney our drawings and everything, and shared that, and we got that approved. But at the same time, it wasn't the real character. So I think, in that respect, it was easier."

There's a lot of approval...

Disney and Pixar don't just require changes once things have been made – in some cases they need to approve almost every stage of design, from concept to the finished product. Every department has its own stories of what needed to be checked, and when.

Yasue explains that, once again, cutscenes are perhaps the most scrutinised aspect of the game, presumably because they're closest in approach to the source material: "It's like a waterfall. You have the plot, the story, the storyboards, we get checked each time, right?" Elsewhere, the approach differs. Gameplay involves brainstorming what Disney sees as fitting for its worlds and characters, before letting the teams in question see a walkthrough of the game in action and offering comment.

For gameplay animators, every individual action is approved down to the smallest detail: "You know, we'll program an action in and Disney or Pixar will say 'that's a bit too violent', or 'they wouldn't do that sort of thing'," says animation director Koji Inoue. "When it came to Remy from Ratatouille, they talked a lot about the precise movements of his tail

...But that pickiness helped make the game as a whole better

Disney's work wasn't just corrective, though – it's collaborative, too. Inoue tells us that when Square wanted to make a Wreck-It Ralph summon that pounds the ground, and presented Disney with the storyboard, the Disney team pointed out a scene in the first film in which he does just that. It solved the problem, and brought a sense of continuity to the character between the movies and game.

The upshot of all this work isn't just that it's a more authentic representation of Disney, however. Some Square developers put the legendary film studio's feedback down to helping them become better visual storytellers as a whole.

"Pixar was actually quite specific about the things that they wanted us to change," says animation director Munenori Shinagawa, "and one of the things was line of sight. That was something that we had probably not paid as much attention to as we should have. Ultimately, we ended up doing a lot of Pixar scenes very early on in the process, and what they taught us about line of sight really helped up the quality of the animation throughout the game."

There are Differences Between Disney and Pixar...

While Disney's collaboration with Square began almost two decades ago, this marks the first time the team's worked with Pixar – a Disney studio with a famously different approach to the core company. As you might expect, they don't collaborate with Square in quite the same way.

Series creator Tetsuya Nomura says that, generally speaking, Pixar cares more about the "technical, creative side of things", while Disney focuses more on "the overall production". Speaking to various teams, it becomes clear that Pixar is a little more precious of its property, asking to approve more stages of production, even participating in weekly conference calls with animation teams to make sure everything is created in its image.
It's an approach Nomura clearly empathises with: "I would say that we, as a company and a team, are more like Pixar."



...But it's not as simple as just 'Disney' or 'Pixar'

While there's obviously a certain amount of movement between projects, both Disney and Pixar keep teams of animators intact after their films have been released – and those teams all have a say on their work being repurposed for the game.

As Nomura points out, those teams can have different takes on the same issue. Take storylines. Some worlds in the game – like Tangled – reimagine the original movie's plotline, where others – Toy Story, for instance – involve plots set in between the existing movies. Those decisions seem to come down mainly to the creators involved:

"For each different world we had to deal with a different team," explains Nomura, "and [plotting] was largely down to what their feelings were on what they wanted to happen. There were some teams that were like, 'Ooh, if you make a new story, you're going to kind of ruin the world that we created,' whereas there were teams, like Toy Story, who said to us, 'Well, we can't have it in that world, but if you want to make a new story, that's fine.'"

Even within studios, teams could be markedly different in what they wanted from their own Kingdom Hearts world: "From team to team," Nomura continues, "the kind of colour, or the way they did things, the feel was quite different. For example, Toy Story and Monsters, Inc., those two teams were completely different from each other."

Pixar takes some convincing to allow changes to its work...

As explained above, Pixar's teams in particular could be fairly exacting about what they want their worlds to look and feel like – but some decisions were subject to major discussions well before they became reality.

Nomura explains that his vision for Kingdom Hearts has always been that Sora and friends canonically arrive in Disney's worlds. That didn't suit the Toy Story team. "When I first brought this to Pixar and I asked about doing that, they were like, 'Actually, no. The Toy Story story is complete. It's a complete package the way it is, and we can't really change that.' I told them if I'm going to do this in the Kingdom Hearts way, then it's going to become a case of, 'Actually, Sora and his friends did come into the world.'"

The solution became to place the plotline between Toy Story movies (specifically 2 and 3), satisfying Nomura's vision, Pixar's restrictions and creating a strange extra consequence: "I said, 'Okay, so is it fair to assume that Woody and Buzz, and friends, remember Sora and everybody coming? Is it part of the story now?' and they were like, 'yeah,' and I was kind of like, 'Oh! Okay.'"




https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/0...challenges-and-rewards-of-working-with-disney
 

metsallica

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,703
Not a KH fan but watched that last week and it was really interesting. The fact that parts of the film models are under the game models is fascinating. They built rigging, re-did hair, just really cool stuff.
 
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Lunar Wolf

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
I think this neatly explains why Frozen is just the movie's plot with Sora in the background hardly interacting with the characters.
 

WillyFive

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,977
Regardless of what you feel about the gameplay or storytelling, KH3 was an incredible production, with such intense love, care, and talent into making all these things come to life. Respect+
 

Jamrock User

Member
Jan 24, 2018
3,163
Any recreation of a Disney asset has to be approved

I heard this from a Battlefront developer and thought he was exaggerating.

Miracle the game even came out.
 

hipsterpants

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,581
Reading this really gives me a greater appreciation for what they were able to pull off, even with the issues I had with it. I'd love to see how it worked back in original KH1 when the Disney stuff was really integral to the plot and Sora's was a lot more involved in the story of each world.
 
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Lunar Wolf

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
Reading this really gives me a greater appreciation for what they were able to pull off, even with the issues I had with it. I'd love to see how it worked back in original KH1 when the Disney stuff was really integral to the plot and Sora's was a lot more involved in the story of each world.

They're the ones that forced the world order thing on Nomura forcing him to split each movie into a different world. I know that much.

Also they didn't want different Disney casts interacting.
 

Amnesiacc

Member
Dec 3, 2018
136
What a massive undertaking, and the final product shows just how much time and thought was put into the game. I almost don't blame Square for taking as long as they did now lol

Being restricted to following the movie plot was a huge let down for me when it came to some of the worlds. Finally introducing some Square worlds in a potential Kingdom Hearts 4 would be a nice change of pace.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
They're the ones that forced the world order thing on Nomura forcing him to split each movie into a different world. I know that much.

Also they didn't want different Disney casts interacting.
Thats hilarious to me since KH1 was when House of Mouse was airing I believe and the framing device of that show was all these Disney characters in one place.

Plus now you got stuff the the Princess' scene in Wreck it Ralph 2.
 
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Yukinari

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,538
The Danger Zone
Why do i feel like disney meddling is why we have a lack of fights against the actual villains of these worlds aside from davy jones. They throw Hans into Frozen at the last second with no explanation or build up.

Toy Story's world would only be improved by adding Zurg especially when you have mechs.
 

ApeEscaper

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,720
Bangladeshi
A lot of those cutscenes look really good to the smallest animation detail can tell they put a lot of work in it can appreciate it more and like in real-time cutscene for lead platform I presume base console of 1.8tf. Overall impressive stuff
 
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Lunar Wolf

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
It sounds like this could be exhausting. Honestly going through that I can understand Nomura wanting y

Thats hilarious to me since KH1 was when House of Mouse was airing I believe and the framing device of that show was all these Disney characters in one place.

Plus now you got stuff the the Princess' scene in Wreck it Ralph 2.

Probably because they're playing with their own toys.Kingdom Hearts is Squarw playing with Disney and Pixar's toys.

It's like alliance between Sony's Spider-man and Marvel
 

Mariolee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,310
Lmao I love that while watching Toy Story 3 and 4 now I'll know that somewhere in the back of Woody's mind is the memory of fighting Young Xehanort.
 

Neolombax

Member
Nov 28, 2018
142
I guess that explains why the different worlds feels episodic in structure. Would've loved to see more freedom given to Square, since for me, one of the hooks of KH was about seeing Square's version of Disney.

KH3 feels more Disney than Square, at least in the beginning parts of the game. It doesn't feel like a fusion of Square and Disney, of which I am slightly disappointed. I'm only up the Caribbean so far.
 

Woozies

Member
Nov 1, 2017
18,998
I think KH would be better served with older properties.

Like compare how they handle Tangled and Frozen

To how they handle Mickey, Donald and Goofy.

They just dunked those boys HEAD DEEP in the anime
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
I think KH would be better served with older properties.

Like compare how they handle Tangled and Frozen

To how they handle Mickey, Donald and Goofy.

They just dunked those boys HEAD DEEP in the anime
Disney probably wants to promote newer stuff but I've thought KH would be a great way to revisit some of the lesser know or less liked properties.

Like the Black Cauldron is remembered as shit but how badass would a fight with the Horned King be?
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
Disney probably wants to promote newer stuff but I've thought KH would be a great way to revisit some of the lesser know or less liked properties.

Like the Black Cauldron is remembered as shit but how badass would a fight with the Horned King be?
If you're allowed to fight the Horned King and not a random heartless.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
Nomura explains that his vision for Kingdom Hearts has always been that Sora and friends canonically arrive in Disney's worlds. That didn't suit the Toy Story team. "When I first brought this to Pixar and I asked about doing that, they were like, 'Actually, no. The Toy Story story is complete. It's a complete package the way it is, and we can't really change that.' I told them if I'm going to do this in the Kingdom Hearts way, then it's going to become a case of, 'Actually, Sora and his friends did come into the world.'"

Also Pixar: Here's Toy Story 4!
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
I mean it's a hypothetical in the first place.

This is probably why Nomura once to do more original worlds and characters.
Like the secret ending teasing The World Ends With You and Verum Rex.
I don't think that had anything to do with TWEWY, it looks entirely to do with Verum Rex. Especially seeing how Nomura has called FF characters a crutch, and TWEWY would still fall into similar category of Square's own properties being a crutch to sell the games. Terrible mindset, mind you, as it completely removes some good aspects to the crossover series that is Kingdom Hearts.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,592
Arizona
Interestingly WDAS experienced the reverse of this scenario with Wreck it Ralph, where Nintendo was extremely specific on changes that had to be made to Bowser's brief portrayal. Similarly Disney remarked how ultimately Nintendo was right and the depiction was much more true to character because of it.

Any recreation of a Disney asset has to be approved

I heard this from a Battlefront developer and thought he was exaggerating.

Miracle the game even came out.
For what it's worth, that's Lucasfilm, not "Disney" (the article is talking about the specific creative studios, so in this case there's a distinction, just as they bring up the differences between "Disney" and Pixar). But yes, Lucasfilm is also quite controlling with depictions.
 

HighJump

Member
Oct 27, 2017
443
Alabama
So Disney x Square Enix was alot less restrictive than Pixar x Square Enix.

Just like the article says that explains why Sora and gang are hands off in the Pixar worlds and kind of just there and along for the ride.
 

Lightning

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,157
Pennsylvania
I mean, the animations were very well done, but the pacing and dialogue is just WAY all over the place.... Like legit parts of Tangled the animations just seem to freeze and the timing is so...so bad.
 

Calliope

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,124
Detroit, MI
Fascinating read. Really enjoy hearing about things behind the scenes. Helps to put into perspective just how much of an undertaking the whole game's development was.

On a side note - I don't normally read IGN so maybe it's par for the course, but that article needed to be proofread/edited.
 

Wiibomb

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,712
I'm right now at kingdom of Corona and well shit... this is really deatiled an well crafted, yeah I see the hell the animators had to go through to make this, but after seeing this final product it is just amazing.

Kingdom Hearts continues to impress me so much.
 

FiXalaS

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,569
Kuwait.
And people want Disney and the story to be woven together more.

Always had a feelings it's best to separate, after reading this I'm glad it is minimal at best.
 

clockstrikes

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,560
I mean, the animations were very well done, but the pacing and dialogue is just WAY all over the place.... Like legit parts of Tangled the animations just seem to freeze and the timing is so...so bad.

That's because they animate the scenes first for the Japanese version and then re-animate the lips for the English dub.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
I don't think that had anything to do with TWEWY, it looks entirely to do with Verum Rex. Especially seeing how Nomura has called FF characters a crutch, and TWEWY would still fall into similar category of Square's own properties being a crutch to sell the games. Terrible mindset, mind you, as it completely removes some good aspects to the crossover series that is Kingdom Hearts.
I feel like they wouldn't show the 104 building if it wasn't related to TWEWY.

Yeah I know it's based on a real place but why use the same knockoff as that other game your known for and have already crossed over with if it's not the same place?
 

Callibretto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,492
Indonesia
So Disney x Square Enix was alot less restrictive than Pixar x Square Enix.

Just like the article says that explains why Sora and gang are hands off in the Pixar worlds and kind of just there and along for the ride.
I think you got it backward. Pixar world are great because their characters are very hands on with KH overall plot. Woody and Sulley interact with organization member etc.

Disney world is the one where Sora does not matter much since they re tell the movie story and keep having excuses for Sora to split up with the disney characters and when you meet them again, the story has advanced off screen and might confuse you unless you already watch the movie
 

koutoru

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,313
As per the realities of working with other's licensed content in games, working with a different team for each world and having to get every single asset approved must of been a huge time commitment. Everything coming together as well as it did is a great feat, both on Square Enix and on Disney/Pixar's part.

Reading about how different teams would have different story requirements for how Kingdom Hearts integrated into their world but at the same time Nomura wanted the events of KH to be somewhat canonical to the worlds that they visited was interesting.
 

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
I love articles like this. Showing us a bit behind the curtain is something I'll always find fascinating.

Can you imagine how incredibly nerve wracking it must be to have your hard work being reviewed and corrected by people who actually worked on these films? Unlike past KH, this one has recent enough films that their animators are not only still alive but still working at Disney itself.

Now I know why this game took almost 6 years from announcement to launch.
 

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
Disney probably wants to promote newer stuff but I've thought KH would be a great way to revisit some of the lesser know or less liked properties.

Like the Black Cauldron is remembered as shit but how badass would a fight with the Horned King be?
No one but Disney nerds even remember Black Cauldron exists, let alone care. The most you could aspire to would be a summon. There's no way Square and Disney would want to spend years and millions of dollars developing a world for a movie Disney has spent the last 33 years behaving as if it never existed when they could be using that to make a world of a more recognizable, marketable, and popular world that would help sell the game more.
 

TheXbox

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,557
This deeply defensive culture pervades the Disney corporation. LF is no better than Pixar or Disney Animation. They are all unreasonably precious with their IP. I'm sure they'd argue that's how they built their Brand, but also fuck it. They don't understand games and their meddling is nothing more than an obstacle.
 

diakyu

Member
Dec 15, 2018
17,535
LMAO!

I think they did but only those concerning Disney characters and/or worlds. There's no way they had any final say in all that darkness darkness hearts friendship darkness bullshit.
Ah yes all the bullshit, which is also spouted by Disney characters considering they own the OCs. Kh is a Disney franchise developed by Square, always remember this.
 

crimsonECHIDNA

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,381
Florida
I think you got it backward. Pixar world are great because their characters are very hands on with KH overall plot. Woody and Sulley interact with organization member etc.

Disney world is the one where Sora does not matter much since they re tell the movie story and keep having excuses for Sora to split up with the disney characters and when you meet them again, the story has advanced off screen and might confuse you unless you already watch the movie

I think Tangled handled it fairly well, but Frozen and Pirates of the Caribbean you could definitely see that.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
No one but Disney nerds even remember Black Cauldron exists, let alone care. The most you could aspire to would be a summon. There's no way Square and Disney would want to spend years and millions of dollars developing a world for a movie Disney has spent the last 33 years behaving as if it never existed when they could be using that to make a world of a more recognizable, marketable, and popular world that would help sell the game more.
Like I said earlier this is hypothetical. I also want a Gargoyles world but that's not gonna happen anytime soon.

I even said Disney is probably just gonna want to promote their recent stuff.
 

Wrestleman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,304
Virginia
REMINDER because it doesn't seem to be grasped by a lot of people on Era:

KINGDOM HEARTS is a DISNEY property. Sora, Riku, Kairi, Organization 13, etc are all exclusively and wholly owned by Walt Disney. Square only owns assets they already owned (FF characters, TWEWY, etc). Disney has hands in the whole pie. They approve the whole thing top to bottom. The idea that they don't get involved in the "original" portions is ridiculous to assert considering it's just as much their property as any Disney world in the game.