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Grigorig

Member
Oct 30, 2017
696
Damnit I just bought a Rift a couple of weeks ago.. having said that I do have a Steam controller and was not exactly blown away or anything by the design/build quality (and the controller overlay in Steam *still* has a bunch of bugs). Oh well, will continue to monitor.
 

Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
Always in for more Half-Life, though I hope it won't be VR only. Not planning to spend a month's paycheck or so to set up a proper gaming device that would only get marginal use.
 

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,074
If the res is better than Vive Pro and the FOV is legitimately somewhere between 135 and 150 degrees, Pimax could be in some real deep shit, really quickly...
I very highly doubt the 150° part of the rumours.
135° might be at the limit of what is possible with the way the lenses look. 150° just physically isn't.

Always in for more Half-Life, though I hope it won't be VR only. Not planning to spend a month's paycheck or so to set up a proper gaming device that would only get marginal use.
  • I highly doubt that when Valve releases this it costs a month's paycheck.
  • There are 100s of hours of very high quality VR gaming out there now, so there's no need for it to only get marginal use.
 

1-D_FE

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,253
I very highly doubt the 150° part of the rumours.
135° might be at the limit of what is possible with the way the lenses look. 150° just physically isn't.


  • I highly doubt that when Valve releases this it costs a month's paycheck.
  • There are 100s of hours of very high quality VR gaming out there now, so there's no need for it to only get marginal use.

I'm extremely skeptical of everything right now. Too much motivation for people to make things up now that someone leaked those photos.

I will say this though: the photos are 5 months old. So for all we know, Valve could have performed a major revision between then and now. So two people could be saying two different things... and neither one is lying. Just sourcing people who saw things from different time periods. I also wonder how much smaller the Pimax lenses could have been if they would have ditched 170 degree mode and simply maxed out at 150.

I don't expect 150 degrees, but I'm also not ruling it out. Yet.
 

Vash63

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,681
I'm extremely skeptical of everything right now. Too much motivation for people to make things up now that someone leaked those photos.

I will say this though: the photos are 5 months old. So for all we know, Valve could have performed a major revision between then and now. So two people could be saying two different things... and neither one is lying. Just sourcing people who saw things from different time periods. I also wonder how much smaller the Pimax lenses could have been if they would have ditched 170 degree mode and simply maxed out at 150.

I don't expect 150 degrees, but I'm also not ruling it out. Yet.

There are two pretty major problems with huge FOVs like that.

1. Lenses are a bitch. Getting perspective correct with correct geometry and no warping is a difficult problem.
2. Apparent resolution drops as FOV goes up. Resolution isn't really a static number, best to think of it as 'pixels per arcminute' or pixels per degree of your vision.

I'm personally hoping for a more modest FOV bump so that they can still increase the apparent resolution by a noticeable amount without needing crazy rendering resolutions.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,038
I'd be fine with 150 and lenses that are pretty blurry on the edges - I don't need detail in the edges, I just don't want blackness
 

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,074
There are two pretty major problems with huge FOVs like that.

1. Lenses are a bitch. Getting perspective correct with correct geometry and no warping is a difficult problem.
2. Apparent resolution drops as FOV goes up. Resolution isn't really a static number, best to think of it as 'pixels per arcminute' or pixels per degree of your vision.

I'm personally hoping for a more modest FOV bump so that they can still increase the apparent resolution by a noticeable amount without needing crazy rendering resolutions.
With modern GPUs (well, Turing) it's at least pretty easy now to match actual rendered resolution with the resolution required in different areas of the framebuffer.
(Both statically and dynamically, for the latter the missing part is now on the sensor/display hardware side rather than the rendering side)
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,038
The future of gaming doesn't involve cutting people off from being able to look at their phones and not hold conversations with their family. It will always be an enthusiast device even if it reaches higher penetration. The only people who think it's the future are people with no friends, family or basically any social connections to the world imo. I think VR is fun but it's simply too demanding in terms of involvement to allow multitasking, something most people do.

When I'm playing PSVR in the living room I'm conversing with my family all the time. Your vision is obscured but it's only a couple of seconds to flip it up to see something
 

1-D_FE

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,253
There are two pretty major problems with huge FOVs like that.

1. Lenses are a bitch. Getting perspective correct with correct geometry and no warping is a difficult problem.
2. Apparent resolution drops as FOV goes up. Resolution isn't really a static number, best to think of it as 'pixels per arcminute' or pixels per degree of your vision.

I'm personally hoping for a more modest FOV bump so that they can still increase the apparent resolution by a noticeable amount without needing crazy rendering resolutions.

Absolutely. And honestly, I'll trust Valve on this one. There's clearly a graph of diminishing returns where costs (rendering requirements and pixel density) greatly outweigh the benefits (of a little extra peripheral "noise"). I trust Valve is going to settle on whatever the "best bang for the buck" figure is. Maybe it's a little higher, maybe it's not. I'm not going to get upset about whatever it is, because Valve will have sound reasoning behind whatever it ends on.
 

burgervan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,325
Glad to hear about UploadVR's changes, since I used to consider them unreliable to say the least, and I didn't even know about the other problems.


They have small pincers that bite at your ears, to simulate pain.

Obviously.

And if you die in the game, they shoot electricity directly into your brain., killing you instantly. It's the future of gaming.
 

1-D_FE

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,253
What does 'ear cones that allow you to feel things' even mean?!

Apparently Razer has some headphones that are marketed as this. Being Razer products, they of course sell for 150 dollars. I wouldn't even begin to know what this means, but maybe the slight effect is magnified because you're in VR (and you don't need much sensory stimulation to be effective).
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,933
I very highly doubt the 150° part of the rumours.
135° might be at the limit of what is possible with the way the lenses look. 150° just physically isn't.
This blog post was making its way around the VR subreddits today. A Pimax 8k review, from a French Knuckles EV3 dev... who hints something might be going down at GDC 2019.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pimax/comments/9w68h4/pimax_8k_vr_dev_review/
http://www.synthesisuniverse.com/SU_Blog/?p=101
I want my Pimax!
Delivery is a mess but they have a new guy and production is ramping up, far from the « all back for X-mass » so be patient and fill your info here to help relief everybody stress:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sK1w_-gU6LaPYmZF1B-5W-Mr7gC1pFTuGkv2WBrQr-Y/edit?usp=sharing

I am a backer! I just pre-ordered!
Be patient, if you are a higher back number you should have a better experience than I have, as the diver/software will improve.

I am a dev!
You don't need Pimax, it's more trouble than problem solving: you need your UI to work great on small FOV and not just on Pimax.
Testing performance is just impossible, Pimax is kinda hacking SteamVR, they use different rendering resolution with different drivers, these are constantly changing, so way to tailor content performance. Also requiring a top of the line GPU that not even 10% of people have is just non sense. Rift/Vive are GTX 970 min. Trying to have a 1080ti as a base?
Wait for GDC 2019, there are some cool news coming for you.

Final thoughts

What Pimax is trying to achieve is brave, that is also a synonym for useless, why don't we have larger FOV (140-150) releasing very soon, even as SDK? Because the tech is not here.
You could push FOV to 140-150 if you have some very good R&D and top people in the field, going beyond that is just not doable using the current combination of flat screens, and a set of Fresnel Lenses. You need much more, you need eye tracking, very advanced optics and some great software.
It won't work without having the HMD calibrating with the user eyes (Through eye tracking cameras).
Pimax is trying to do something not possible with the tech they are using. You take a Rift and a Vive and try to push their FOV and that is exactly what you will get: failure.

You probably could do it for 1 user, having the full pipeline tailored and calibrated for him, but consumer HMDs need to be good for « 98% » of your users.

The pimax is looking exactly like a Rift/Vive on steroid.

It's showing the optical limitation of the current tech in combination of software compensation for distortion and Chromatic aberration.
With the current software implementation, and low FPS it's definitely for me not worth Deving VR on it, I'd rather continue using my Rift.

It's all sad really because I want Pimax to be good, FOV has always been for me a much bigger problem than resolution, I remember having presence in some great Dk1 demos, but FOV is really my 1st wish.
Pimax is like that thing you want, you want to believe it's a usable HMD that will replace your Rift/Vive, something good enough to be Gen 1.5 or even 2!
With every VR hardware: when you try something better, you just can't go back, on any aspect, Pimax shows you amazing FOV, but the trade off for all the rest, the fact that it doesn't improve anything else make it not the right solution using that current (outdated Rift/Vive)technology.
You could very probably if you are Valve or Oculus make a 140-150 ish FOV without Eye tracking, better resolution, less optical issues and great software, but that's about it. Not much better.
True Gen2 will need to be much more than that.
His setup is pretty non standard. A Dual Xeon w/ a 980 ti on Windows 8.1. He sounds unsatisfied and very picky (perfectly understandable, ofc), but the whole Pimax software/hardware experience hasn't been the smoothest from the month or so of impressions I've been watching/reading.
 

derFeef

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,355
Austria
I believe the story I think, but the Valve logo looks a bit shooped.
Look at the Valve logo at the second device in the back, it's stretched in heigth compared to the front on.

ValveLeakPCB-1024x498.jpg
 

Vash63

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,681
I believe the story I think, but the Valve logo looks a bit shooped.
Look at the Valve logo at the second device in the back, it's stretched in heigth compared to the front on.

Camera lenses aren't always perfect perspective at the edges of the frame. It's pretty unlikely these are faked, people have run them through noise analysis to look for edits and they came up clean.

On top of that, to have a render of this quality and consistency on 4 different images is pretty insane, and these are using Lighthouse (you can see the sensor dots) so they're definitely SteamVR.
 

Mechaplum

Enlightened
Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,796
JP
When I'm playing PSVR in the living room I'm conversing with my family all the time. Your vision is obscured but it's only a couple of seconds to flip it up to see something

People talk as if you go into carbonite form everytime you put on the headset :P.

There are even games on PSVR that is multiplayer with one wearing the headset and four others on the tv, and that is always a hoot at family gatherings.
 

derFeef

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,355
Austria
Camera lenses aren't always perfect perspective at the edges of the frame. It's pretty unlikely these are faked, people have run them through noise analysis to look for edits and they came up clean.

On top of that, to have a render of this quality and consistency on 4 different images is pretty insane, and these are using Lighthouse (you can see the sensor dots) so they're definitely SteamVR.
Good then :)
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
The future of gaming doesn't involve cutting people off from being able to look at their phones and not hold conversations with their family. It will always be an enthusiast device even if it reaches higher penetration. The only people who think it's the future are people with no friends, family or basically any social connections to the world imo. I think VR is fun but it's simply too demanding in terms of involvement to allow multitasking, something most people do.
It doesn't seem you have ever touched a VR device in your life tbh.
 

Vash63

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,681
Those are pretty good specs although FOV could be wider. That said, wireless isn't there and that's pretty darn important.

I'm sure there will be some kind of optional add-on like with the Vive. I'm just happy it'll be lighter, more comfortable with a higher resolution screen and a thinner, more convenient USB-C cable.

It's good that high frequency wireless has solved the latency problem but I'm personally not interested, it doesn't have the bandwidth to handle higher resolutions anyway (Vive Pro sees quality loss over wireless) and you still need to worry about batteries. Considering the amount of bandwidth that they're using it's really not surprising that a wireless signal isn't gong to be perfect, they're looking at something like 40Gbps over the new USB-C based cable.
 

Arthands

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,039
The only thing I ask for is an even more streamline set up. A VirtualLink port will be good, so you only have a single cable from the PC to the headset.
 

Sindee

Banned
Oct 26, 2018
127
It doesn't matter that you see it as a gimmick. It very evidently is not.

According to Cambridges dictionary: "Something that is not serious or of real value that is used to attract people's attention or interest temporarily, especially to make them buy something."

Whether you find it appealing or not it's a simple fact that VR offers both graphic experiences and gameplay mechanics not possible outside of VR. Ergo, not a gimmick.

(It's also really fun)

I'll keep seeing it as a gimmick in gaming until it is the standard.
 

apocat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,047
I'll keep seeing it as a gimmick in gaming until it is the standard.

That's odd of you. My statement stands. VR offers both graphical and mechanical design elements that are impossible outside of It. That in itself disqualifies it as a gimmick as it offers something unique to the medium. You can't possibly dismiss everything that isn't the current standard as gimmicks, can you? That is almost the equivalent of wishing for a stagnated medium that never evolves.
 

TheUnseenTheUnheard

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
May 25, 2018
9,647
That's odd of you. My statement stands. VR offers both graphical and mechanical design elements that are impossible outside of It. That in itself disqualifies it as a gimmick as it offers something unique to the medium. You can't possibly dismiss everything that isn't the current standard as gimmicks, can you? That is almost the equivalent of wishing for a stagnated medium that never evolves.

Also people fucking hate change. Some even feel like VR is a threat to traditional gaming. People are really weird.
 

Sindee

Banned
Oct 26, 2018
127
That's odd of you. My statement stands. VR offers both graphical and mechanical design elements that are impossible outside of It. That in itself disqualifies it as a gimmick as it offers something unique to the medium. You can't possibly dismiss everything that isn't the current standard as gimmicks, can you? That is almost the equivalent of wishing for a stagnated medium that never evolves.

I don't have anything against VR, as a matter of fact, I am all for it. The fact that it tries to evolve and push the medium forward is a good thing. With that said, VR has thus far fail to be the end-all be-all that people say it is. Google defines gimmick as "a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or business." VR has been nothing more than a form of ad to move PS4 consoles and graphics cards. VR has the potential to be a game changer (no pun intended), but as it stands right now, it is nothing more than a peripheral that has not sold well. The Kinect and PS Move sold a lot more and they too offered unique experiences, yet history wrote them off as nothing more than gimmicky peripherals.

I lack the foresight to claim with certainty that VR will not take off, but I can safely bet that in 10 years people will still be using tvs and monitors as their primary source for video signal for gaming (not including mobile). I guess time will have the final word, but for now I'll keep seeing VR as a glorified gimmick that has yet to live up to all the hype.
 

Taco_Human

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,226
MA
Anyone remember that old HL2 mod for VR that had both a controller and a walking thing? It split the reticle from the camera and it looked pretty good at the time.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,053
Also people fucking hate change. Some even feel like VR is a threat to traditional gaming. People are really weird.

I've said it elsewhere but even those hostile to VR suddenly "got it" when I let them play Beat Saber in my living room. It's so funny to read posts that are so negative when you know that person is just one play session away from understanding how VR changes everything.
 

TrashFuego

Member
Nov 21, 2017
73
I don't have anything against VR, as a matter of fact, I am all for it. The fact that it tries to evolve and push the medium forward is a good thing. With that said, VR has thus far fail to be the end-all be-all that people say it is. Google defines gimmick as "a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or business." VR has been nothing more than a form of ad to move PS4 consoles and graphics cards. VR has the potential to be a game changer (no pun intended), but as it stands right now, it is nothing more than a peripheral that has not sold well. The Kinect and PS Move sold a lot more and they too offered unique experiences, yet history wrote them off as nothing more than gimmicky peripherals.

I lack the foresight to claim with certainty that VR will not take off, but I can safely bet that in 10 years people will still be using tvs and monitors as their primary source for video signal for gaming (not including mobile). I guess time will have the final word, but for now I'll keep seeing VR as a glorified gimmick that has yet to live up to all the hype.

I think its just near sighted to say its a gimmick. I don't think its anywhere it needs to be yet, and people certainly over hyped its initial impact. But as the tech grows, it will become a big sector of entertainment.
 

MajorB

Member
Apr 18, 2018
160
New Valve News Network report with a wealth of leaks concerning the headset and HL VR:

 
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OMEGALUL

Banned
Oct 10, 2018
539
I don't how to feel about a Half Life VR game. On one hand another Half Life game, that's great! But the other hand, its got a VR gimmick attached it and I'm like goddammit Valve!
 

Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,939
I've been saying for years that Half Life 3 will be a VR game. It's the only way that Half-Life can feel as novel as it once did in a world where other devs have long since taken what HL and HL2 had to teach and have taken that shit to new heights. VR is how Valve enables HL3 to fundimentally provide an experience that no other game is.
 

GeoGonzo

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,327
Madrid, Spain
Consider everything I said about UploadVR taken back. They hired fucking HEANY555 as a reporter.
Yeah, I read that on a tweet quoted by Durante on the PCVR thread. And right after that 1-D_FE mentioned this:
The problem is the two main VR websites with original editorial content are both shitheals. You can read the headlines from Reddit, but for original content, it generally sources back to them. I have major issues with both websites, but if you want to link to a story, it invariably has to lead back to them (due to lack of coverage elsewhere). The only quality option is Tested and their content is very sporadic.
These last few days have been a rollercoaster for my VR bookmarks, I had no idea.
 

I KILL PXLS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,522
New Valve News Network report with a wealth of leaks concerning the headset and HL VR:


Going to take it all with a huge grain of salt of course but some interesting speculation there. I'm curious what kind of add-ons would be useful enough for a detachable faceplate though outside of like a Leap Motion.

I wonder what his technical problem with Steam VR Home is? (it doesn't help him much saying this, but it's absolutely free of any errors on my end)
Personally I've had plenty of minor issues with it over time. Nothing as bad as what he mentioned though. At least not consistently.