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DemonCarnotaur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,229
NYC
Well written, great read.

The only thing that I wanted to know was a possible timeline from the hike to death - I know there is no way to know, but I wonder what the expected survival time was for them.
 

noquarter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,483
Thanks OP, was a good read. The author does a really good job of explaining the story in enough detail that you can understand everything without having ever been there, which is nice.

Also a very hard read, as I kept thinking about how shitty that must be, to die of thirst in the middle of Death Valley with you children with you.

Only thing that really bugs me about the whole write up is he doesn't ever follow up on the pink note that was in the address book. Did Conny write a note of what happened? What was the pink note?
 

MopDog

Member
Nov 15, 2017
550
Why would anyone go there for a family trip, wtf?

What do you mean? It's a National Park, and a very beautiful one at that.

Having visited much of the southwest, including an extended stay at Death Valley, I can't fathom the appeal of going in the summer. Parks like Death Valley and Joshua Tree and Zion are just so much much more comfortable in early winter and spring when the temperature hardly gets above 60 degrees.

Tragic story. I can't imagine how terrifying it was for everyone involved, and the crippling panic that must have set in for the parents realizing that they've put their children in serious, potentially life-ending, risk. Jesus.
 

SJurgenson

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,239
I'm still reading this, but am becoming frustrated - - I am reminded of some true wilderness story, but cannot find anything on the Internet about it.

I remember it being about a couple that tried to live in the wilderness (or on a boat?), where the boyfriend seemed to be the more clueless of the two, and they got into trouble. The thing that sticks out to me is that they were recording their adventure, either through video or audio...

I thought I remember that the girlfriend soon realized how bad their situation was, but could no convince her partner of it.


Does anyone remember that story, or am I just grossly mis-remembering the story of Chris McCandless?
 

sleepnaught

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,538
So, was it ever confirmed the small bones were that of the children? I mean, in all likelihood it probably is, but not knowing 100% would drive me crazy.
 

Deleted member 14649

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,524
Having visited much of the southwest, including an extended stay at Death Valley, I can't fathom the appeal of going in the summer. Parks like Death Valley and Joshua Tree and Zion are just so much much more comfortable in early winter and spring when the temperature hardly gets above 60 degrees.

We are pretty seasoned hikers, and couldn't even manage anything but short trips, during visits to these parks in late September, let alone actual Death Valley itself.
 

TerminusFox

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,851
I'm still having a bit of a hard time believing if they died in the desert no evidence of what happened has surfaced.
Plus no remains of the kids ever found?

Something ain't adding up.
 

JetBlackPanda

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,505
Echo Base
I'm still having a bit of a hard time believing if they died in the desert no evidence of what happened has surfaced.
Plus no remains of the kids ever found?

Something ain't adding up.

They died in the desert with no water. The heat will kill you in days. The kids maybe lasted longer but with no parents it was probably horrible for them. The family being German nationals compliactes things for info as well. I don't see any reason to believe anything other then them getting stuck and trying to hike out is what killed them.

I mean it's possible the children made it onto the China lake facility before dying and the feds don't want that getting out. German nationals walk into military facility and die.
 

Metalix

Member
Oct 28, 2017
883
Yeeesh, drove through Death Valley from Las Vegas 2 years ago, 47C heat in September! Not too bad when driving with the roof down but as soon as you come to a stop your whole body sizzles. Seemed to me if your car breaks down things could go very badly, indeed.

An aside, Death Valley Junction is beautifully eerie - completely silent.
 

SgtCobra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,865
You are welcome. And here is a summary without the filler, in case anyone wants to know what happened: https://www.strangeoutdoors.com/mysterious-stories-blog/2017/11/18/germantouristindeathvalley
In short, they lost 3 tires in the middle of nowhere as the road got worse, nevertheless kept driving for several miles until they got stuck in the evening, stayed in the car for the night, then started walking south the next morning towards an (unbeknownst to them, empty) military installation. They made it about 8 miles (12.8km) before dying.
Greatly appreciated, don't have the time right now to read through 13 pages.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,731
I'm still having a bit of a hard time believing if they died in the desert no evidence of what happened has surfaced.
Plus no remains of the kids ever found?

Something ain't adding up.

Did you read the whole thing? They found evidence of the kids some distance - the author could not get reliable detail - from the site where they found the adults.

That kind of heat could kill a kid in a few hours, kids are more susceptible to heat stroke. I have no clue why they didn't try to get back to the car and then the fully stocked shelter. Unless things went south very quickly.

I travelled a bit in western/central Australia during their summer and was very aware how quickly you could get into trouble if you were unprepared in the wilderness. It'll kill you very quickly.
 

ahoyhoy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,319
I'm still having a bit of a hard time believing if they died in the desert no evidence of what happened has surfaced.
Plus no remains of the kids ever found?

Something ain't adding up.

He mentions that the bodies were found near a "wash" which he describes would have "churned evidence into oblivion". It's possible the kids wandered a bit, delirious, and ended up dying further down hill where their smaller clothes and bones would have ended up buried in sand.
 

Deleted member 8118

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,639
Such a beautiful place though. But thanks for the link I need to read this story now



possible...but doubtful. A lot of remote areas in Death Valley don't have service. A lot of National Parks have that problem actually - I just got back from a trip hiking in Joshua Tree National Park and had no cell service from the moment I entered the place.
No cell service is not a problem in National Parks.

These parts don't need any more interference from human life.
 

Monogatari

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,166
The wilderness is huge. We get caught up in our road networks and "civilisation" which dumbs and numbs us to the actual size and scope of these places. It's no joke.
 

ahoyhoy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,319
I keep thinking about this story. Such an eerie feeling reading about a story where you know the people are fucked but they don't know they're fucked.

Like, when someone dies in a car crash or accidentally falls off a cliff, it's relatively quick and over in an instant, but when someone spends a few days wandering a desert, when do they know they're fucked? The author does a great job pushing the idea that they didn't enter survival mode until well after it was too late. They were wandering for a while, utterly unaware that they were probably already dead, just worried about relatively small beans like avoiding late fees on a rental car and missing a flight. When did they realize they might die? Did they have time before they died to think of other plans or trace back what went wrong that lead them to their doom?

The most heartbreaking narrative is the bit where they believe one of the adults desperately climbed the hill near where the bodies were found to try and look for any sign of the military base they were heading towards. What that must have felt like to get to that top of the hill, see nothing but desert, and have to stumble back down and tell your partner they were probably going to die.
 

Deleted member 8118

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,639
It's amazing how untrained the general public is when it comes to survival.

People come into my job and blow my mind when it comes to their lack of general knowledge of basic survival skills and intuition.
 

Doctor Doggo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,379
It's amazing how untrained the general public is when it comes to survival.

People come into my job and blow my mind when it comes to their lack of general knowledge of basic survival skills and intuition.

Just out curiosity, what do you do? Sounds interesting, haha.

Also, bookmarked this thread for later. Really interested to read this when I get the time.
 

Grym

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,974
No cell service is not a problem in National Parks.

These parts don't need any more interference from human life.

While I agree with your sentiment, it is still problematic. They are all popular tourist destinations and every year there are missing and dead when people don't understand what they are getting into (or just run into an unfortunate series of events) or just daytrip a place without knowing anything about it. Cell service would definitely help but I agree at the same time with where you are coming from... and I'm not entirely sure how to increase the overall safety net while avoiding the interference with the natural state.

And I do hate going... wherever... let's say Old Faithful and have the place overrun with people Instagramming and snapchatting and posting to facebook and whatever while I'd like to appreciate a site for what it is.
 

Doctor Doggo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,379
And I do hate going... wherever... let's say Old Faithful and have the place overrun with people Instagramming and snapchatting and posting to facebook and whatever while I'd like to appreciate a site for what it is.

We were in Yellowstone in October and we skipped out on old faithful for this reason alone. Went to places with less people and it was so worth it.
 

TyrantII

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,365
Boston
I'm still having a bit of a hard time believing if they died in the desert no evidence of what happened has surfaced.
Plus no remains of the kids ever found?

Something ain't adding up.

Coyotes need to eat too. Scavengers most likely moved the small child, while the larger people couldn't so we're scavenged where they lie.
 

Deleted member 8118

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,639
Just out curiosity, what do you do? Sounds interesting, haha.
I work for a company that sales high end outdoors products and various survival tools.

It's pretty much my job to outfit people who come in. I've taken care of people touring the Artic Circle, helped ex-military find civilian variants of the gear used in combat. My most common person is the inexperienced hiker who doesn't understand the risks of going into the woods, let alone the wilderness. I've gotten the "Can't I just substitute ____ for ____?" ex: standard shoes that are not suitable for trails (no lug patterns on the shoes)

It is often said that wandering into the woods or wilderness alone is a bad idea, but even with two experienced people out of four, there is a likelihood that the group is in higher risk due to the inexperienced people.

I do most of my hiking and exploring solo, but I make sure that I am prepared. Even on a short outing expected for a partial day of being gone, I pack enough food and water just in case. I also double down on lighting and high-vis safety rope.

I know it's just preparing for the unexpected and circumstances can change, but the severity of packing even an extra pair of socks can come into play when shit goes wrong.

Above everything said, one thing I tell people is to never rely on your cellphone in the wilderness. In many cases, it will inly cloud your judgment and instills a false sense of security.
 

sibarraz

Prophet of Regret - One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
18,108
As horrible as Death Valley and its tragedies sounds, sadly I could never get out of my head that terribly amazing promo of The Undertaker were he related his bike adventures with the Big Show there

 

Deleted member 8118

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,639

Atolm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,829
72 hours of survival? I think that without enough water and shelter from the Sun two kids would die in maybe 2-3 hours.
 

Wanace

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,020
Searching through that Strange Outdoors blog, I found this story which is even weirder, IMO:

https://www.strangeoutdoors.com/mysterious-stories-blog/2017/12/7/mathias-group-from-yuba-city

On February 24, 1978, a group of friends from Yuba City in California; Gary Dale Mathias, Jack Madruga, Jackie Huett, Theodore (Ted) Weiher and William Sterling; set out on a trip to watch a basketball game, left after it finished and then somehow drove up a mountain into the wilderness and were never seen again.

It appeared that Ted had lived 8-13 weeks after his disappearance based on the length of his beard and around 100 pound weight loss.
 

GSG

Member
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,051
Read the whole story today, it's very fascinating and eerie. Atleast the families of the victims got closure.

That story about the Dutch girls in Panama is quite sad too. It's probably a good idea to load your phone with offline maps and bring a portable battery with you before you head out into the wilderness. I bring a portable battery anytime I'm out in unfamiliar areas in a foreign country, just in case.
 

Parch

Member
Nov 6, 2017
7,980
Having worked in search and rescue, it's very common for people to underestimate the risks and put themselves in situations where they are unprepared and inexperienced.
 

DemonCarnotaur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,229
NYC
Searching through that Strange Outdoors blog, I found this story which is even weirder, IMO:

https://www.strangeoutdoors.com/mysterious-stories-blog/2017/12/7/mathias-group-from-yuba-city
While it is bizarre, it sounds like what likely happened was a series of unfortunate errors.

They probably went out to get help for their friend, got lost, died, and the friend starved. What brought them up the mountain and out of the car is weird, and there may be something to the story there, but I can't imagine this was an elaborate murder.

It does show how unforgiving the outdoors can be.
 
Oct 25, 2017
29,503
That story about the Dutch girls in Panama is quite sad too. It's probably a good idea to load your phone with offline maps and bring a portable battery with you before you head out into the wilderness. I bring a portable battery anytime I'm out in unfamiliar areas in a foreign country, just in case.
That case is weird as hell.
Especially with cell phones being involved
 
Oct 25, 2017
895
That case is weird as hell.
Especially with cell phones being involved
It's not that weird once you're familiar with these types of cases.

The wilderness is huge. If you lose the trail and have zero outdoors skills or a cell phone, you will die. You can get lose 20 feet from a well marked trail in some places. There's a case of a woman getting lost just meters from the Appalachian trail, living for several months on the food reserves she had, and then dying.
 
Oct 25, 2017
895
You guys should read the other articles on his site. They're great. His discovery of the suicide victim's body just a short distance from the parking lot in Death Valley after the area had already been scoured by Search and Rescue is quite interesting: http://www.otherhand.org/home-page/search-and-rescue/searching-for-norman-cox/

nd his ongoing search for a man who disappeared in Joshua Tree is fantastic too: http://www.otherhand.org/home-page/search-and-rescue/searching-for-bill-ewasko/. No resolution, but it gives you an idea of how easy it is for someone to disappear.
 

Zukuu

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,809
Read the whole story today, it's very fascinating and eerie. Atleast the families of the victims got closure.

That story about the Dutch girls in Panama is quite sad too. It's probably a good idea to load your phone with offline maps and bring a portable battery with you before you head out into the wilderness. I bring a portable battery anytime I'm out in unfamiliar areas in a foreign country, just in case.
If they had only been keeping the dogs close, they would have found their way back. =/

I'm glad I will never be in a situation like that. I tend to stick to cities and close-by beaches.
 
Oct 25, 2017
895
Read the whole story today, it's very fascinating and eerie. Atleast the families of the victims got closure.

That story about the Dutch girls in Panama is quite sad too. It's probably a good idea to load your phone with offline maps and bring a portable battery with you before you head out into the wilderness. I bring a portable battery anytime I'm out in unfamiliar areas in a foreign country, just in case.
Or get a topographic map and a compas. That way you don't need electricity. If you can't navigate with a map and a compass, then perhaps you shouldn't be wandering off well-marked trails.
 
Oct 25, 2017
29,503
It's not that weird once you're familiar with these types of cases.

The wilderness is huge. If you lose the trail and have zero outdoors skills or a cell phone, you will die. You can get lose 20 feet from a well marked trail in some places. There's a case of a woman getting lost just meters from the Appalachian trail, living for several months on the food reserves she had, and then dying.
Missing part isn't weird.
Its all the other stuff.
The random photos(including one of the girls with apparent blood on her head), folded clothes, stuff all packed in the bag and where it ended up, bleached bones, etc
Of all the questions the one seemingly easiest to answer(cell turning on and wrong pin being used) is likely that the owner died first and the friend(who's phone was dead at that point ) didn't know the pin.
 

Beer Monkey

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,308
Or get a topographic map and a compas. That way you don't need electricity. If you can't navigate with a map and a compass, then perhaps you shouldn't be wandering off well-marked trails.

I do offline maps but you never know when a phone is going to break! So I take paper maps and a compass for backup. Hiked about 60 miles in Joshua Tree, Yosemite, Death Valley, Lake Tahoe, and Lava Beds National Monument this year.
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
I wouldn't call this errie, definitely a terrible tragedy simply caused by poor planning and a series of bad luck though.

The Hinterkaifeck murders on the other hand is just plain creepy! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinterkaifeck_murders

Creepy story but zero doubt Schittenbauer did it. Occam's Razor. They didn't even check his alibi and if they had, his wife would have had multiple reasons to protect him. He also has a highly credible non-theft motivation and was a competent farmer who would have no reason to let the animals starve.
 

robosllim

Banned
Dec 4, 2017
548
Creepy story but zero doubt Schittenbauer did it. Occam's Razor. They didn't even check his alibi and if they had, his wife would have had multiple reasons to protect him. He also has a highly credible non-theft motivation and was a competent farmer who would have no reason to let the animals starve.
Gonna read the longer story linked in the citations, but the question I have at the start is, why did he bother sticking around for a couple days? Did he just do it to take care of the animals until enough time passed where he figured people would come around to check on the family? Seems a bit risky. And was it him sneaking into the house and waiting in the attic a while before attacking?

We'll see if this other article has answers.
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
Gonna read the longer story linked in the citations, but the question I have at the start is, why did he bother sticking around for a couple days? Did he just do it to take care of the animals until enough time passed where he figured people would come around to check on the family? Seems a bit risky. And was it him sneaking into the house and waiting in the attic a while before attacking?

We'll see if this other article has answers.

My guess: He got trapped there by circumstance (never felt it was safe to leave, waiting for snow melt, etc), or had claimed to be traveling beforehand "I'm going to Munchen for a week to buy supplies" and had to fill out the time. He had obviously been snooping and would have significant information about the comings and goings of neighbors, guests etc.