In Defense of Looting

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signal

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Oct 28, 2017
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This is a 2014 Ferguson era article but I think the critiques and defenses are mostly unchanged.



As protests in Ferguson continued unabated one week after the police killing of Michael Brown, Jr., zones of Twitter and the left media predominantly sympathetic to the protesters began angrily criticizing looters. Some claimed that white protesters were the ones doing all of the looting and property destruction, while others worried about the stereotypical and damaging media representation that would emerge. It also seems that there were as many protesters (if not more) in the streets of Ferguson working to prevent looting as there were people going about it. While I disagree with this tactic, I understand that they acted out of care for the struggle, and I want to honor all the brave and inspiring actions they’ve taken over the last weeks.
The dominant media is itself a tool of white supremacy: it repeats what the police deliver nearly verbatim and uncritically, even when the police story changes upwards of nine times, as it has thus far in the Brown killing. The media use phrases like “officer-involved shooting” and will switch to passive voice when a black man is shot by a white vigilante or a police officer (“shots were fired”). Journalists claim that “you have to hear both sides” in order to privilege the obfuscating reports of the state over the clear voices and testimony of an entire community, members of which witnessed the police murder a teenager in cold blood. The media are more respectful to white serial killers and mass murderers than to unarmed black victims of murder.
And yet, many of the people who perform this critique day-in, day-out can get jammed up by media perceptions of protesters. They want to correct the media’s assertion that protesters were all looters for good reason: the idea of black people looting a store is one of the most racially charged images in the white imaginary. When protesters proclaim that “not all protesters were looters, in fact, most of the looters weren’t part of the protest!” or words to that effect, they are trying to fight a horrifically racist history of black people depicted in American culture as robbers and thieves: Precisely the image that the Ferguson police tried to evoke to assassinate Michael Brown’s character and justify his killing post facto. It is a completely righteous and understandable position.
However, in trying to correct this media image—in making a strong division between Good Protesters and Bad Rioters, or between ethical non-violence practitioners and supposedly violent looters—the narrative of the criminalization of black youth is reproduced. This time it delineates certain kinds of black youth—those who loot versus those who protest. The effect of this discourse is hardening a permanent category of criminality on black subjects who produce a supposed crime within the context of a protest. It reproduces racist and white supremacist ideologies (including the tactic of divide-and-conquer), deeming some unworthy of our solidarity and protection, marking them, subtly, as legitimate targets of police violence. These days, the police, whose public-facing racism is much more manicured, if no less virulent, argue that “outside agitators” engage in rioting and looting. Meanwhile, police will consistently praise “non-violent” demonstrators, and claim that they want to keep those demonstrators safe.
The mystifying ideological claim that looting is violent and non-political is one that has been carefully produced by the ruling class because it is precisely the violent maintenance of property which is both the basis and end of their power. Looting is extremely dangerous to the rich (and most white people) because it reveals, with an immediacy that has to be moralized away, that the idea of private property is just that: an idea, a tenuous and contingent structure of consent, backed up by the lethal force of the state. When rioters take territory and loot, they are revealing precisely how, in a space without cops, property relations can be destroyed and things can be had for free.
On a less abstract level there is a practical and tactical benefit to looting. Whenever people worry about looting, there is an implicit sense that the looter must necessarily be acting selfishly, “opportunistically,” and in excess. But why is it bad to grab an opportunity to improve well-being, to make life better, easier, or more comfortable? Or, as Hannah Black put it on Twitter: “Cops exist so people can’t loot ie have nice things for free so idk why it’s so confusing that people loot when they protest against cops” [sic]. Only if you believe that having nice things for free is amoral, if you believe, in short, that the current (white-supremacist, settler-colonialist) regime of property is just, can you believe that looting is amoral in itself.

And posted this in another thread yesterday but:

 
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LQX

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I don't think there is any defense really, especially if we look to other protests like the ones that happened in Hong Kong. You can protest without stealing shit.
 

snowhite

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I don't think there is any defense really, especially if we look to other protests like the ones that happened in Hong Kong. You can protest without stealing shit.
It's as if you didn't read the OP at all. Just looked at the title and came in here to post.
 
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signal

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Oct 28, 2017
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I don't think there is any defense really, especially if we look to other protests like the ones that happened in Hong Kong. You can protest without stealing shit.
I'd say both the article and the Baldwin quote are about specific occurrences in looting in the US. Someome smarter than me can probably mould the defenses into applying more globally (maybe the author of the Intercept article actually does this in her book of the same title) but I don't think saying 'look at HK' is a total takedown of the arguments presented.
 

Stop It

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Oct 25, 2017
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I read it and I do not think there is any defense for it.
The defence is literally written in front of you. Could you care to rebut it rather than casually ignore it?

Our society is based on things that many see as unjust and property is one of them. People who keep society going are valued less than people who make luxuries and frivolous shit.

Add that to a racist structure that has literally looted entire countries and societies and the sudden moral hand wringing over people smashing up a Gucci store falls apart PDQ.

If the first thing people do when they see these images is condemn the looting, they're not looking hard enough.
 

nsilvias

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Oct 25, 2017
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I don't think there is any defense really, especially if we look to other protests like the ones that happened in Hong Kong. You can protest without stealing shit.
you dont understand, looting is the oppressed taking back what has been denied to them/taken from them.
in that very moment they have power over there oppressor. its symbolic
 

Xando

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If you taint your political message by looting objects not related to your protest you hurt your own message.
 
Oct 25, 2017
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I’m not pro-looting but I’m pro-fucking shit up.

It’s the only way anyone will pay attention.

Verbally is preferred but that’s not what you get from the tough guy corrupt cops.
 

TheCthultist

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Oct 27, 2017
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Interesting read that I’m genuinely wondering why I’ve never encountered before. Seems like the sort of thing I should have come across at some point. Not sure how i missed it at the time.

My stance remains unchanged. I’d never take part in looting, but I sure as hell ain’t about to tell anyone else to do the same. I haven’t been oppressed in any way that makes me feel it necessary. The same can’t be said for a lot of folks out there.
 

TheMadTitan

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Oct 27, 2017
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Can't defend looting, most doing the looting are opportunist and aren't really down for the cause imo
Looting is deprivation of a system that exceeding exploits and dehumanizes those at the lowest to the benefit of those at the highest. Whether it's someone who's smashing in earnest to destroy it all later or someone who comes along and joins in because they need a new mattress; neither would be happening if they were properly provided for in the first place.

And of course, I'm speaking in this specific context. This doesn't and shouldn't apply to the post-sporting event parades.
 

snowhite

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In what way is this an either/or situation?
It's an either/or situation because when you call the police on looters, there's a very tangible risk of people ending up dead in police violence. The police literally fired at a reporter and arrested another one, both on camera. Imagine what they'll do to protesters off camera.
 

TheMadTitan

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Yeah I'm sure that's what people taking tvs from target are thinking of
You think they're not thinking about how they got one over on a multi-billion dollar avatar of a capitalistic system that beats them down day in and day out?

Even if they're not being poetic about it, they're clearly saying "Fuck Target." Target = rich assholes.
 

Xando

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But isn't the point of the article that it is part of the political message?
What political message is burning down and looting local restaurants?

If they smash down political institutions or police stations fine by me. Burning down local business that has no relation to protests against institutionalized racism is as stupid as it can be.
 

Deleted member 60096

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Yeah I'm sure that's what people taking tvs from target are thinking of
People weren't just looting target cause they wanted tvs or for the shits and giggles and its just dishonest to suggest otherwise
EDIT: Removed video of looted target goods being used to provide aid to protest, because while the video is legitimate, the source is apparently an alt-righter
 
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JS3DX

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Feb 15, 2018
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You simply can't defend looting: If the idea behind it is "fight the system!", at the end of the day by looting you are just damaging the owners of the store, the workers who may lose their jobs, and the city itself on the long run. And what happened to the original reason (that being a person, company, or system) of your anger? NOTHING! They couldn't care less, because it doesn't affects them directly.

Be effective: Protest, close de streets, and even raid the place directly related to the problem if you are willing to. But looting? That's an excuse for something else.
 

Prophet Steve

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Oct 26, 2017
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What political message is burning down and looting local restaurants?

If they smash down political institutions or police stations fine by me. Burning down local business that has no relation to protests against institutionalized racism is as stupid as it can be.
The article is pretty explicit about that in my opinion, so I would suggest (re)reading that.
 

Mekanos

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So many people ITT who did not read the OP. People acting like looters are all just white opportunists is stupid on its face.
 

Lichtsang

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Why defend the honor of Target when you can read what they themselves have to say about it https://corporate.target.com/articl...-Wg27zz0sHgnvL044L0xApE#.XtGd1LVssP0.facebook
I don't defend the "honour of Target", I just used it as an example for an unrelated retail store. I am against violence and destruction, esspecially if they're senseless.

You simply can't defend looting: If the idea behind it is "fight the system!", at the end of the day by looting you are just damaging the owners of the store, the workers who may lose their jobs, and the city itself on the long run. And what happened to the original reason (that being a person, company, or system) of your anger? NOTHING! They couldn't care less, because it doesn't affects them directly.

Be effective: Protest, close de streets, and even raid the place directly related to the problem if you are willing to. But looting? That's an excuse for something else.
I agree wholeheartedly.
 

Deleted member 60096

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And I don't think that this is okay. Target, for example, did not harm you, and normal people work there and have to deal with all the caused damage afterwards.
Shit like this is literally what insurance is for. Target will be fine, the black people getting oppressed by the system and murdered by the police won't be if shit isn't done about it
 

Xando

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The article is pretty explicit about that in my opinion, so I would suggest (re)reading that.
Burning down and looting local business will do absolutely nothing to change the system except hurting small business owners.
The big capitalist chains will get their insurance money and may or may not leave the people working there out of work.

We had the G20 riots around here where people looted shit to abolish the capitalist system and you know what? A bunch of small restaurants had to close and the bank they burned down was reopened 3 months later.
 

GhettoGamer

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Shit like this is literally what insurance is for. Target will be fine, the black people getting oppressed by the system and murdered by the police won't be if shit isn't done about it
After the Baltimore riots, the CVS was rebuilt and back in business but the majority of small businesses that were looted and destroyed were not.
 

Lichtsang

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Shit like this is literally what insurance is for. Target will be fine, the black people getting oppressed by the system and murdered by the police won't be if shit isn't done about it
Sure, Target will be fine, but what about the people working there?
Don't destroy and/or loot places unrelated to your cause! You just make things worse for everyone this way!

I still remember the terrible "protests" against the G20 summit in Hamburg, in which also small businesses were destroyed and random cars burned. I really hate such ruthless behavior.
 

Izzard

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Sep 21, 2018
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I’m against it. I know you put up a study defending it, but I’d rather they storm and riot government buildings, trash the streets, instead of stores.

But, when you treat people like this for so long you have no right to be surprised when they fight back in any way they can, so I don’t for one second put any blame on them.
 

Belfast

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And I don't think that this is okay. Target, for example, did not harm you, and normal people work there and have to deal with all the caused damage afterwards.
I don’t specifically condone looting, but I get it as an extension or outlet of rage and oppression, muddied by the occasional opportunist. It’s an aimless, anarchistic release of aggression pent up over years and decades of oppression and active denial of equality and rights and opportunities.

See maybe Target isn’t directly to blame here, certainly not it’s local employees, but it is part of a larger, exploitative system and nobody seems to give a shit when the looting is done slowly with an invisible hand to the lower class, do they? Only when some dude jacks a tv.

Its disingenuous to condemn looting on one level and ignore it on another. If it was me, I’d rather see neither, but y’know, here we are.
 

TheMadTitan

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And I don't think that this is okay. Target, for example, did not harm you, and normal people work there and have to deal with all the caused damage afterwards.
You're focusing too much on Target and not on what Target represents in this instance. Like I said, they're hitting Target because Target is their approximate representation of rich assholes. They're not looting Target because they hate Target. Target is a manifestation of Wall Street and the institutions that undermine the working class, has pushed down wages, and prop up police institutions.

If they could run up and burn down the White House, they would've done it. If they could've burned down Wall Street and Deutsche Bank, they would have. But they couldn't and Target was the next best thing.

And in a just system, those normal people that work for Target wouldn't be so dependent on Target that they would suddenly fear the destructive loss of it and how that would impact their livelihood. A just system wouldn't have lead to its destruction in the first place.
 

Jecht

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Sure, Target will be fine, but what about the people working there?
Don't destroy and/or loot places unrelated to your cause! You just make things worse for everyone this way!
They're going to be fine be too. Target put out a statement saying they will be paying them and supporting the protesters.

Not to mention all the local businesses in the area posting their support for the protesters in spite of damages. But nah keep posting this false narrative.
 

Flaurehn

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domthybomb

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Shit like this is literally what insurance is for. Target will be fine, the black people getting oppressed by the system and murdered by the police won't be if shit isn't done about it
If insurance covers these things, then looting doesn't affect big companies. It's the smaller businesses and people who work at these companies that will be affected way worse. People out of jobs and other small business owners who live on razor thin margins.
 

Lichtsang

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You're focusing too much on Target and not on what Target represents in this instance.
Oh, come on. I don't think a retail store is the best representation of the Wallstreet. That's a bit much.


And in a just system, those normal people that work for Target wouldn't be so dependent on Target that they would suddenly fear the destructive loss of it and how that would impact their livelihood. A just system wouldn't have lead to its destruction in the first place.
But we live in the real world and not in a just one. In this instances they probably will be okay, but I personally would dread the day I want to go to my job and find the place in total shambles.
 

Deleted member 60096

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After the Baltimore riots, the CVS was rebuilt and back in business but the majority of small businesses that were looted and destroyed were not.
The small businesses will be fine, the community is clearly pooling together to rebuild
Sure, Target will be fine, but what about the people working there?
Don't destroy and/or loot places unrelated to your cause! You just make things worse for everyone this way!

I still remember the terrible "protests" against the G20 summit in Hamburg, in which also small businesses were destroyed and random cars burned. I really hate such ruthless behavior.
The physical location being burnt down doesn't automatically make them not employees, chances are Target will still provide their employees their income because again this is what insurance is for.
 

Prophet Steve

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Oct 26, 2017
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Burning down and looting local business will do absolutely nothing to change the system except hurting small business owners.
The big capitalist chains will get their insurance money and may or may not leave the people working there out of work.

We had the G20 riots around here where people looted shit to abolish the capitalist system and you know what? A bunch of small restaurants had to close and the bank they burned down was reopened 3 months later.
Even when it does not result in the desired outcome (which is unreasonable to expect anyway), it is still part of the message and it is still part of changing the system. When using this view on everything people do, they should do nothing. Nothing that impacts society, because it has not resulted in changing anything.

There is a political message behind this, as the article and tweet in the OP explain, you just don't agree with the way that message is delivered. But I do emphasise with the situation as any other ways of delivering the message clearly are not succeeding either.
 
More reading
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Points made from Baldwin. As always
Isn't Baldwin's point just a less eloquent version of MLK's from the prior year?

Someone linked MLK's 1967 APA address in the other thread, and wooo boy does the "urban riot" section seem incredibly relevent:
Urban riots must now be recognized as durable social phenomena. They may be deplored, but they are there and should be understood. Urban riots are a special form of violence. They are not insurrections. The rioters are not seeking to seize territory or to attain control of institutions. They are mainly intended to shock the white community. They are a distorted form of social protest. The looting which is their principal feature serves many functions. It enables the most enraged and deprived Negro to take hold of consumer goods with the ease the white man does by using his purse. Often the Negro does not even want what he takes; he wants the experience of taking. But most of all, alienated from society and knowing that this society cherishes property above people, he is shocking it by abusing property rights. There are thus elements of emotional catharsis in the violent act. This may explain why most cities in which riots have occurred have not had a repetition, even though the causative conditions remain. It is also noteworthy that the amount of physical harm done to white people other than police is infinitesimal and in Detroit whites and Negroes looted in unity.

A profound judgment of today's riots was expressed by Victor Hugo a century ago. He said, 'If a soul is left in the darkness, sins will be committed. The guilty one is not he who commits the sin, but he who causes the darkness.'

The policymakers of the white society have caused the darkness; they create discrimination; they structured slums; and they perpetuate unemployment, ignorance and poverty. It is incontestable and deplorable that Negroes have committed crimes; but they are derivative crimes. They are born of the greater crimes of the white society. When we ask Negroes to abide by the law, let us also demand that the white man abide by law in the ghettos. Day-in and day-out he violates welfare laws to deprive the poor of their meager allotments; he flagrantly violates building codes and regulations; his police make a mockery of law; and he violates laws on equal employment and education and the provisions for civic services. The slums are the handiwork of a vicious system of the white society; Negroes live in them but do not make them any more than a prisoner makes a prison. Let us say boldly that if the violations of law by the white man in the slums over the years were calculated and compared with the law-breaking of a few days of riots, the hardened criminal would be the white man. These are often difficult things to say but I have come to see more and more that it is necessary to utter the truth in order to deal with the great problems that we face in our society.
https://www.apa.org/monitor/features/king-challenge
 

Deleted member 25600

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What political message is burning down and looting local restaurants?

If they smash down political institutions or police stations fine by me. Burning down local business that has no relation to protests against institutionalized racism is as stupid as it can be.
There's plenty of reasons to be ok with looting and burning some of these places.

Looking just at the Target everyone was clutching their pearls over at first, it was said that the target in Minneapolis was one where experimental loss prevention tech was used, targetting poor people. It was also said that it had driven small businesses that couldn't compete to close. Target had helped fund a local police crackdown on minor crime....which disproportionately targetted minorities. Target buys textiles made at Uyghur labour camps in China.

Pick a reason.
 
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