In South Korea There's a Witch-Hunt Against Female Game Devs who Align Themselves With Feminism

Brawly Likes to Brawl · Apr 23, 2018

xenocide said:
Yea that's what I was reading in the comments. Strange that game developers are both admitting 40%+ of gamers in Korea are women while also bending over backwards to cater to men in this veritable witch hunt. I suppose I don't know a lot about Korean culture which may have something to do with it.

It's not that strange. Women make up 50% or so of gamers in general but whenever that's brought up in western settings it's usually met with very flippant responses ("yeah, but they mostly play mobile/casual games", etc).

Big name companies all completely fumbled the response to GamerGate. Blizzard had probably the only prominent rejection I witnessed above the individual or indie level. Everyone else was too afraid of potentially hurting their sales or image to get into it, no matter how bad the abuse got.

Garf02 · Apr 23, 2018

xenocide said:
bending over backwards to cater to men in this veritable witch hunt.

a Witch hunt is never teh right choice (unless is an actual witch that summoned the Pest and destroy the crops) but, if the whole thing started from the

'hannam,'" derogatory Korean slang for "disgusting men."

, I see why they would be offended.. putting the picture backwards. wont the same had happened if it were a man using a derogatory term for women?

Inuhanyou · Apr 23, 2018

Dreamboum said:
Yeah to an extent. They're radical feminists but Megalia has been used by mobs to conflate all kind of feminism to them. Megalia has gotten people shook but it also has its fair share of garbage.

It's like...4chan for women

Sounds familiar.

Luchashaq said:
Yup, they really are a bunch of homophobes and racists plus a good amount of pedophilia as well.

In terms of equality they are a broken clock right twice a day type of group.

xenocide said:
The article makes note of some of the awful things they've done, which included convincing women pregnant with boys to get abortions and publicly outing gay men that were married to women. They don't sound like a great group--although it mentions some things they did in the past that were admirable. They remind me of that feminist group in Russia who had a logo that was a sickle and a severed pair of testicles. Not exactly your ideal messengers.

Damn, what the fuck

I must be too used to legitimate social movements like BLM and such being demonized by far right harassers in my own country. Cause that shit dont sound acceptable at all, and i would hardly call such a group a feminist group as that definition carries some pretty important connotations

gdt · Apr 23, 2018

Garf02 said:
a Witch hunt is never teh right choice (unless is an actual witch that summoned the Pest and destroy the crops) but, if the whole thing started from the
, I see why they would be offended.. putting the picture backwards. wont the same had happened if it were a man using a derogatory term for women?

Stop

Luchashaq · Apr 23, 2018

Inuhanyou said:
Sounds familiar.

Damn, what the fuck

I must be too used to legitimate social movements like BLM and such being demonized by far right harassers in my own country. Cause that shit dont sound acceptable at all, and i would hardly call such a group a feminist group as that definition carries some pretty important connotations

The closest analog to a U.S. group is the subreddit shitredditsays aka srs. Idk if it's still this way but it was full of racism, homophobia, would blatantly harass and doxx men in other subreddits who talked about being abused or sexually assaulted etc and they were/are? above the rules of Reddit much like t_d.

They also had their clock right twice a day moments here and there.

Garf02 · Apr 23, 2018

gdt said:
Stop

what did I do wrong?, If I were to promote anything with slang derogative to women, I would come under fire too (only focusing on the 1st part. not whole downfall after it)

Syril · Apr 23, 2018

Garf02 said:
I see why they would be offended.. putting the picture backwards. wont the same had happened if it were a man using a derogatory term for women?

It's not equivalent because men aren't routinely marginalized the way women are.

Garf02 · Apr 23, 2018

Syril said:
It's not equivalent because men aren't routinely marginalized the way women are.

so women should "get away" with expressing derogatory terms towards men??...take into account that im talking only about the 1st person, no the whole HAPPENING overall

Spine Crawler · Apr 23, 2018

Aquavelvaman said:
Korea has some really buckwild online movements, and it can be really hard to parse even for Korean speakers. The amount of disinformation on the Korean internet is staggering.

Some say that Korea invented the alt-right.

korea at the moment is facing a redemption of liberalism.

the two right wing presidents are being prsecuted (the later one is facing 24 years of prison after an impeachment) and the society itself seems to be shifting to the left. moon is incredibly popular and is showing some success in his dimplomacy as well.

it remains to be seen if this will be the case in a few years though.

Garf02 · Apr 23, 2018

Spine Crawler said:
korea at the moment is facing a redemption of liberalism.

the two right wing presidents are being prsecuted (the later one is facing 24 years of prison after an impeachment) and the society itself seems to be shifting to the left. moon is incredibly popular and is showing some success in his dimplomacy as well.

it remains to be seen if this will be the case in a few years though.

wasnt teh last president the one that was basically a "puppet" of a gipsy/ advisor or something like that??

Lucumo · Apr 23, 2018

Inuhanyou said:
Cause that shit dont sound acceptable at all, and i would hardly call such a group a feminist group as that definition carries some pretty important connotations

I mean, "feminism" has a negative connotation (here at least), so that would fit (except that it's more radical than usual). Any self-respecting woman, man or group supporting/fighting for equal rights and opportunities isn't using any special term because there is no need for it as it's the "normal" thing to do. On the other hand, feminists pretty much always segregate themselves (no men allowed) while pursuing their "goals" (if they even have any) via putting others down, causing harm, insulting people etc.

Deleted member 4212 · Apr 23, 2018

Spine Crawler said:
korea at the moment is facing a redemption of liberalism.

the two right wing presidents are being prsecuted (the later one is facing 24 years of prison after an impeachment) and the society itself seems to be shifting to the left. moon is incredibly popular and is showing some success in his dimplomacy as well.

it remains to be seen if this will be the case in a few years though.

Yes, I voted for Moon.

TheThirstyPrisoner · Apr 23, 2018

This really is a "two wrongs" kind of situation. Unfortunately, the male establishment (think Gamergate but seemingly a majority, or at least an extremely vocal minority) uses Megalia to denounce anything even remotely feminist.

This very article was posted to the /Korea subreddit and any comment even remotely supportive of Kotaku for researching the issue was downvoted into oblivion. They didn't/couldn't deny any of the facts in the article, but someone was clearly not happy to have it in print.

Riversands · Apr 23, 2018

Korean people used to be pro feminism especially in joseon era. They once had Queen Seondeok and her daughter as queens in two consecutive generations. What happened to them?

Andrew Lucas · Apr 23, 2018

Erik Twice said:
No, there isn't. And yes, like mentioned in the article, there's a racist angle to this. They have gone as far as saying that Korean men and society are only upset about Japan's rape campaigns because it was others doing the raping.

From what I know of Megalia, they are a terrible, sexist, racist website with a long history of online harrassment. One of their guiding principles is that it's good to insult, harrass or deface men because men do it too. They are absolutely not a worthy representative of women's rights nor feminism and seem much closer to being a hate group.

In fact, one of their most well-known campaigns was about massively outing gay men. Things were so bad that when the Megalia administrators passed a decision to ban slurs against gay men, the site imploded NeoGAF style and splinter groups were created. Splinter groups who are still outing gay men. Their view of trans people isn't any better, mind.

They are a garbage group.

Well, fuck. Someone actually did some research before posting.

Garf02 · Apr 23, 2018

Lucumo said:
I mean, "feminism" has a negative connotation

past few years the word did have got its twisted a bit, any type of "protest" if done behind the banner of Feminism, and under the same name, many try to justify the need to "take revenge" on men rather look for equality. or at least thats who I see hte picture of why some people grown irk to the term lately.

Not related, and I dont know Korean so slangs is even trickier, but it personally irks me how Kotaku actually explains hannam is a derogatory term while term (disgusting men) while the USG articles says it means (sexist men) which to me sounds USG is trying to excuse the term itself

Brawly Likes to Brawl · Apr 23, 2018

Aquavelvaman said:
Korea has some really buckwild online movements, and it can be really hard to parse even for Korean speakers. The amount of disinformation on the Korean internet is staggering.

Some say that Korea invented the alt-right.

Dear god, this is an incredible article. So many eye opening observations.

Velocity:Design:Comfort · Apr 23, 2018

Lucumo said:
I mean, "feminism" has a negative connotation (here at least), so that would fit (except that it's more radical than usual). Any self-respecting woman, man or group supporting/fighting for equal rights and opportunities isn't using any special term because there is no need for it as it's the "normal" thing to do. On the other hand, feminists pretty much always segregate themselves (no men allowed) while pursuing their "goals" (if they even have any) via putting others down, causing harm, insulting people etc.

trashhero · Apr 23, 2018

Riversands said:
They once had Queen Seondeok and her daughter as queens in two consecutive generations. What happened to them?

A bit off topic, but i've heard that korean gamers weren't exactly happy about Firaxis putting her as a leader in Civ6. Is there any particularly reason for it (i don't know much about Korean history)?

Spine Crawler · Apr 23, 2018

Garf02 said:
wasnt teh last president the one that was basically a "puppet" of a gipsy/ advisor or something like that??

well not a gipsy.. thats an incredibly rude racial term for european romas. but yes, it was a shamans daughter

Inuhanyou · Apr 23, 2018

Lucumo said:
I mean, "feminism" has a negative connotation (here at least), so that would fit (except that it's more radical than usual). Any self-respecting woman, man or group supporting/fighting for equal rights and opportunities isn't using any special term because there is no need for it as it's the "normal" thing to do. On the other hand, feminists pretty much always segregate themselves (no men allowed) while pursuing their "goals" (if they even have any) via putting others down, causing harm, insulting people etc.

No offense to you personally...but the fact that you basically just generalized literally anyone flying under the feminist banner essentially makes your argument worthless from the outset. I mean do a basic google search and you'd find that your viewpoint is completely wrong.

There are some vocal radical feminist groups,, like this one here, but your doing the exact same thing right now, basically using them to demean all feminist groups under a single banner and dismiss feminism or its goals entirely.

I don't know what circles you run in, but the only people who think "feminism" means a single type of negative connotation can't tell a social democracy from a communist dictatorship, and thinks black people need to "calm down" when it comes to social advocacy.

trashhero · Apr 23, 2018

Inuhanyou said:
No offense to you personally...but the fact that you basically just generalized literally anyone flying under the feminist banner essentially makes your argument worthless from the outset.

I mean, it's not his problem that this Megalia feminists cannot understand how optics work. Guilt by association is everywhere in politics, you can't only criticize it when it's against your side.

Lucumo · Apr 23, 2018

Garf02 said:
past few years the word did have got its twisted a bit, any type of "protest" if done behind the banner of Feminism, and under the same name, many try to justify the need to "take revenge" on men rather look for equality. or at least thats who I see hte picture of why some people grown irk to the term lately

I'm not necessarily referring to "lately" though. Like I said, the work done previously was by people who didn't need/use a banner. With the advent of increased social connectivity via the web, self-described feminists/feminist groups started to emerge, leeching off the general goodwill towards those who had done all the good work and abused it to further their own interests/mentality. Around that time, the words "feminist" and "feminism" got thrown around a lot, mostly to instrumentalize it by the latter group but also by the press who obviously reported on several issues. At least that's pretty much how it went down here (to repeat it since apparently one poster can't read, unless he is from the same country I am from which is rather unlikely). It's also the reason why enough women distance themselves from such internet movements, especially when they claim to speak for women in general. Most people just stay clear completely though as the whole issue has become a giant mess in the last few years, as you already said.

Inuhanyou · Apr 23, 2018

trashhero said:
I mean, it's not his problem that this Megalia feminists cannot understand how optics work. Guilt by association is everywhere in politics, you can't only criticize it when it's against your side.

i'm not talking about south korea. I'm talking about America.

Platy · Apr 23, 2018

Garf02 said:
I see why they would be offended.. putting the picture backwards. wont the same had happened if it were a man using a derogatory term for women?

Men have the system in their favor so it is never an apt comparison to equate the anger of the opressed with the hate of the oppressors. They are not the best group, but they are fighting a harder war so maybe they are just the escalation

Also for people saying megalia is racist and homophobic.... This is a country wide problem, makes no sense to single them out for doing the same what their enemies do.

Deleted member 1607 · Apr 23, 2018

Really jaw dropping read. Awful stuff especially the part where the lady was grilled by her boss and forced to explain/deny her social media actions and that's published to placate the angry hoard.

Really can't stand the social media thought police that goes on around private individuals.

Erik Twice · Apr 23, 2018

Andrew Lucas said:
Well, fuck. Someone actually did some research before posting.

Nah, this is just not the first time the topic comes up. Still, I appreciate it.

Platy said:
Also for people saying megalia is racist and homophobic.... This is a country wide problem, makes no sense to single them out for doing the same what their enemies do.

They are racist and homophobic. Their "enemies", which to them includes gay men and transexual people, doing the same does not absolve them for being racist and homophobic, amongst other things.

Claiming yourself to be "feminist" or even being so should not give anyone a pass to be racist, homophobic or otherwise hateful.

Deleted member 15428 · Apr 23, 2018

https://www.resetera.com/threads/in...evs-who-align-themselves-with-feminism.35920/

Garf02 · Apr 23, 2018

Platy said:
Men have the system in their favor so it is never an apt comparison to equate the anger of the opressed with the hate of the oppressors. They are not the best group, but they are fighting a harder war so maybe they are just the escalation

Also for people saying megalia is racist and homophobic.... This is a country wide problem, makes no sense to single them out for doing the same what their enemies do.

but see, this is the problem, trying to justify acts that anyone else will be condemned for behind some sort of "justified revenge" or "moral high ground"

Lucumo · Apr 23, 2018

Inuhanyou said:
i'm not talking about south korea. I'm talking about America.

Yeah, in a thread about South Korea. That's why I made the post showing that connotations for words can be different, depending on the country you are from. (I'm neither from SK nor the US (just to spell it out again explicitely)).

rras1994 · Apr 23, 2018

Erik Twice said:
They are racist and homophobic. Their "enemies", which to them includes gay men and transexual people, doing the same does not absolve them for being racist and homophobic, amongst other things.

Claiming yourself to be "feminist" or even being so should not give anyone a pass to be racist, homophobic or otherwise hateful.

I think the real point here is that the Korean version of GamerGaters aren't going after them because they are homophobic/racist - which is a large part of the reason they are going after people who aren't actually associated with Megalia as the article states. People shouldn't be under fear of losing their jobs for supporting feminism - and the problem is this thread has basically devolved into posters saying that feminism as movement all are extremist and revenge seeking. The problem of this justification is it ends up people thinking they do have the right to do the actions described in this article.

CannonFodder52 · Apr 23, 2018

That logo is very good

Garf02 · Apr 23, 2018

rras1994 said:
and the problem is this thread has basically devolved into posters saying that feminism as movement all are extremist and revenge seeking

no one is saying that all, but you can not deny that the image of modern feminism is attached to the likes of those.

like, when men started to complain about some abuse or whatever dont remember exactly, what were some feminist response? the whole "Masculinity is so fragile" movement as a ridicule

Nathan.exe · Apr 23, 2018

Even more terrible is that it seems some editors are using this hate as an advantage to boost their revenues (similar to Play-Asia recently)

Schreckweg 5000 · Apr 23, 2018

This thread devolving into a hatesink for anti-feminists will be hopefully one day surprising.

rras1994 · Apr 23, 2018

Garf02 said:
no one is saying that all, but you can not deny that the image of modern feminism is attached to the likes of those.

like, when men started to complain about some abuse or whatever dont remember exactly, what were some feminist response? the whole "Masculinity is so fragile" movement as a ridicule

During the metoo movement I also saw many more feminist supporting men who recieved abuse, also generally see more feminists/women in general calling out the feminist who are homephobic/racist/TERFS. At some point you have to realise that if the media/press is focusing on a small subset of a movement which is extreme, you have to question why they are doing that.

Starlatine · Apr 23, 2018

Garf02 said:
no one is saying that all, but you can not deny that the image of modern feminism is attached to the likes of those.

By MRA and the like, you mean. By everyone else with an ounce of logic, feminism is too big to be defined by a single line of thinking. You can have the most wide eyed cookie cutter hollywood actress and Valerie Solanas under the same definition of "feminist", it's not hard to understand why you shouldnt treat their ideas as one and the same.

The fact that people might try to use Megalia to discredit feminists all around the globe when most outside korea were ignorant to their existance shows how easy it is to cling onto pretend boogeyman hate group (which in this case sadly is real but still not relevant to the bigger picture) to reinforce their arguments

Deleted member 4461 · Apr 23, 2018

That's awful. Complete social repression, and for what? Do they not realize they're proving the need for feminism by controlling what women do?

MusclesAreGirly said:
I don't it's a silly question. If such claims about race would be racist, which they are. Such claims about gender are most definitely sexist and male supremacist in nature.
And multiple areas in the male dominated science fields are rife with neurosexism.

You're actively ignoring a study from a reputable source because it doesn't match your beliefs. Reflect.

BernardoOne said:
Studies on monkeys don't necessarily correlate to humans, and studies of kids 9 months kids and older are quite obviously, already influenced by the socialization and conditioning coming from their parents.
If anything, human history has shown how many varied and different forms that conditioning can take shape in.
Shit, at some point pink was considered a male color, and blue female. Societies and cultures changed and so did the conditioning and pink is now considered a "girly" color.

Isn't it possible that some variables we look at are susceptible to social conditioning while others are biological?

So for example, color could be irrelevant, as well as theming. So girls could be more prone to playing with a plush Superman toy & boys could be more prone to playing with a floral print truck.

Dreams-Visions · Apr 23, 2018

Lots of snowflakes over there in Korea too, I see.

Garf02 · Apr 23, 2018

Starlatine said:
By MRA and the like, you mean. By everyone else with an ounce of logic, feminism is too big to be defined by a single line of thinking

and yet, here you are painting any MRA as a if it were a direct anti feminist ground...

rras1994 said:
you have to question why they are doing that.

not going as far as thin foil theories, I would argue that simple, loud small grounds (death the penis, etc etc etc) that will make "interesting" news

Starlatine · Apr 23, 2018

Garf02 said:
and yet, here you are painting any MRA as a if it were a direct anti feminist ground...

.... the whole principle behind Mens Rights Activism is counter acting feminism. So yes?
There's no need to "fight for mens rights" in todays society.

You think the "White Lives Matter Too" tag started out as an umprompted cry for help from oppressed white people or as a direct answer to BLM?

Garf02 · Apr 23, 2018

Starlatine said:
.... the whole principle behind Mens Rights Activism is counter acting feminism. So yes?

parts of it, yes, sadly, but then we are back to " who generalizes who"

Samaritan · Apr 23, 2018

The part that gets me isn't the backlash or the attacks by these "fans" or the "community", but the response by the companies or groups that these women are a part of. It seems like in the vast majority of cases, they will side with the angry mob over their own employees. It's completely debilitating to me to just read about it, so I can only imagine what it's like for the women living among that kind of a culture.

CannonFodder52 · Apr 23, 2018

Garf02 said:
and yet, here you are painting any MRA as a if it were a direct anti feminist ground...

Can you name some popular MRA figures who aren't anti-feminist.

Hoot · Apr 23, 2018

The MRA is also both dishonest and redundant as MRA loves to pretend that the growth of feminism means reduced rights for men for some reasons, or forgetting that feminism also fights for men's rights particularily by dismantling toxic masculinity that is oppressing men today. Feminism has never been about denying the abuse against men. It's more like some men don't like it when the spotlight is suddenly not all about them

xenocide · Apr 23, 2018

Garf02 said:
no one is saying that all, but you can not deny that the image of modern feminism is attached to the likes of those.

like, when men started to complain about some abuse or whatever dont remember exactly, what were some feminist response? the whole "Masculinity is so fragile" movement as a ridicule

It's not though. The only people who think that are largely internet groups and those with no interest in actually understanding the issue. Feminism like all rights movements is more of a gradient than a binary switch. Are there groups like the one mentioned in the article that have dangerous and extreme views in their ranks? Yes. Are there women that just want basic rights and equality for women across the world? Yes. And there's a lot of ground between.

If we're going to understand the issue, you have to be aware of what people mean when they talk about "masculinity". The issue at hand as of recent is the concept of "toxic masculinity". Which is the idea that strict adherence to traditional gender roles carries a lot of baggage that society has moved beyond--the idea of women being subservient to men, denial of the existence of spousal rape, domestic violence, etc--and that the negative attributes are never addressed and just "boys being boys" or "men acting like men". It is a real issue that needs to be addressed, and has been linked to movements ranging from GamerGate, to the Alt-Right, to White Nationalists, and acts of mass violence ranging from the Pulse Nightclub shooting, the Parkland shooting, and going back arguably the Columbine shooting.

Riversands · Apr 23, 2018

trashhero said:
A bit off topic, but i've heard that korean gamers weren't exactly happy about Firaxis putting her as a leader in Civ6. Is there any particularly reason for it (i don't know much about Korean history)?

I dont know too :(
I dont even play civ6

Garf02 · Apr 23, 2018

CannonFodder52 said:
Can you name some popular MRA figures who aren't anti-feminist

I cant even name a popular MRA figure, I dont follow specific peoples

Dehnus · Apr 23, 2018

Garf02 said:
no one is saying that all, but you can not deny that the image of modern feminism is attached to the likes of those.

like, when men started to complain about some abuse or whatever dont remember exactly, what were some feminist response? the whole "Masculinity is so fragile" movement as a ridicule

I don't quite follow you here.

Anyhow, most Feminists I know, especially Eco Feminists, try their best not to name "men" as one group, when they talk about the Patriarchy. They will stress that it isn't men but the Patriarchy itself and some within the ruling class of the system. A ruling class that has set the rules in their favour for thousands of years and abuse minorities of any kind (and yes that is ANY minority including those that have more privilege, white poor men are a minority too) and their insecurities to fight each other. As long as you can get one group to fight another, you stay in power. Of course some groups you need to give more privilege (like white men), as that is how humans work. One will have to get jealous, the other has to get scared (as they take what little they have away from them) and before you know it you got discord in the masses. Exactly what those in power want.

As the moment all these minorities and tribes start realizing :"Wait a minute, you are the same as I, we're being DUPED!?" you get an uprising! Like the peasant uprisings in the medieval times and in Rome. Over the centuries the haves have perfected this psychological game to perfection!

After all, if you can get Feminists and the male gender to fight, they become toothless towards the actual targets, as they spend their ammo on each other. Each group using bastardized cartoonish evil versions of the other in their head. There is no feminist that will complain that Male Abuse is non existent, far from it! They were the ones putting male rape, and male abuse on the bloody table! Male chauvinism usually downplays that abuse as "the victim is a wuss! Why isn't he standing up for himself! Pansy!". Which is something Feminists have been fighting since forever now.

TLZ · Apr 23, 2018

My wife don't like feminists.

In South Korea There's a Witch-Hunt Against Female Game Devs who Align Themselves With Feminism

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