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Indigenous critics say Avatar: The Way of Water is "horrible" (UPDATE: New James Cameron Interview, see Threadmarks)

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excelsiorlef

excelsiorlef

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Reminder part 3 is basically in the can so even if Mister Good Intentions decided to do more than listen in one ear and out the other, adjustments are for part 4... plenty of time to oops forget for the 2nd time this conversation happened
 
Khanimus

Khanimus

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excelsiorlef said:
Reminder part 3 is basically in the can so even if Mister Good Intentions decided to do more than listen in one ear and out the other, adjustments are for part 4... plenty of time to oops forget for the 2nd time this conversation happened
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Even if Cameron had any sincere interest in responding to these criticisms in his work, how they market the super not great pitch for Avatar 3 is going to be fascinating and cringe-inducing.
 
Calvin Leonard

Calvin Leonard

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Cameron doesn't GAF, Disney doesn't GAF, and if this movie makes 2 bil + nothing will change. I hate to say it, but money moves the needle. There won't be enough uproar to stop the cash cow.
 
excelsiorlef

excelsiorlef

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Calvin Leonard said:
Cameron doesn't GAF, Disney doesn't GAF, and if this movie makes 2 bil + nothing will change. I hate to say it, but money moves the needle. There won't be enough uproar to stop the cash cow.
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No one thinks otherwise

Ironically I'm watching Prey with the Comanche audio... contrasting the effort here to James Cameron and his unlimited budget is laughable
 
Calvin Leonard

Calvin Leonard

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Khanimus said:
Even if Cameron had any sincere interest in responding to these criticisms in his work, how they market the super not great pitch for Avatar 3 is going to be fascinating and cringe-inducing.
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Those Navi will be Black adjacent you better believe it😤 Fuck around and find out, shit might get a little more interesting then
 
Sibersk Esto

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The conversation between Avatar and indigenous groups and the reception has been pretty varied, going by this taking place in 2010:

https://indypendent.org/2010/04/avatar-activism-james-cameron-joins-indigenous-struggles-worldwide/

Several months after the release of Avatar, which quickly became the top grossing film of all time, and two days after the release of the DVD on Earth Day, Cameron was invited to speak at two events on April 24 that were associated with the Ninth Session of the United Nations Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues taking place in New York City from April 19-30.

"I'd just like to say it is a tremendous honor for me to be here," Cameron said in his introduction to a special evening screening of Avatar to some 400 people from the indigenous forum at the New York Directors Guild Theatre in Midtown Manhattan. "I applaud what you [at the forum] are doing. It is so critical given how many indigenous cultures are under threat throughout the world."

Cameron said that he has been astonished by the response to the film and said that many indigenous communities and environmental organizations have contacted him seeking his help and support.

"It has been very, very interesting for me in the last couple of months to see how many people have come to [my wife] Susie and myself asking if there is something we can do in association with Avatar because so many people around the world working with indigenous issues have seen their reality in the film — even though the film is a fantasy that takes place on a mythical world — people are seeing their reality through the lens of this movie."

While he said that he had never worked with indigenous people before in his life, he says he is now very committed to helping illuminate these struggles worldwide. "I never really dreamed that a Hollywood film could have that significant of an impact," Cameron said on panel discussion earlier in the afternoon, "Not only is this is an opportunity, it is a duty. I do have a responsibility now to go beyond the film, because it doesn't teach, and to become an advocate myself and use what media power I have to raise awareness."
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Several years ago he said that he realized, "I need to take whatever muscle I have in the film industry and tell a story … so I made Avatar."

Mohawk journalist Kenneth Deer asked Cameron after the screening if people are asking him to be their avatar. Cameron responded, "I don't want that kind of responsibility. I think there is an opportunity here, these doors open once in a while, when there is moment when we have the world's attention. We need to collectively figure out some ways to have some good come from it."

Deer pointed to large Hollywood films, such as Dances with Wolves, Little Big Man, Wind Talkers and Avatar, where the hero who saves the indigenous people is always a non-indigenous person. He asked Cameron why he also chose this narrative, and instantly received a large cheer from the audience.


Cameron responded, "That was one of the backlashes against the movie, that the so-called main character was not an indigenous leader himself." However, he said that the goal in making the film was not to try to "tell indigenous people how bad things are for them," but rather to "wake up" people who play the roles of economic oppressors or invaders in real-life. "I understand the white messiah argument," he said, "but in this movie, I am trying to make everybody a white messiah, for everybody to have the sense of responsibility to help with the problem. I think it is such absolutely courageous how you are fighting for your rights … But it is going to take people from the other side meeting you part way and taking responsibility for what has happened in the past and the way we need to live in going forward."


Cameron continued, "But, if you'll notice, I tried to go behind the normal Hollywood paradigm and have Jake work within the leadership system of the Na'vi, by not displacing the leader Tsu'Tey who had taken over leadership of the clan when the patriarch, when the father dies, as he stands up with him and ask him to translate for him — so that the message comes from both of them together. I tried to show two cultures meeting halfway to find a solution. And perhaps Hollywood can go further in that regard. Maybe it my own parochial, chauvinistic perspective as a writer. As an artist, it is very important to write from the heart, and Avatar is what came out."


In a discussion after the film, a native Hawai'ian woman spoke up and told Cameron that she felt that the reason he did not win best director or best film is "because the indigenous won" in Avatar. "Should be aware of that," she said. "the forces of racism are still there and they are very powerful. I salute you as a warrior yourself on our behalf."
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Carlos Mamani Condori, the chairperson of the U.N. Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues on the panel after the film, asked Cameron through a translator if he had considered how indigenous communities around the world could unit themselves in the struggle while writing the screenplay.


Cameron explained that the fantasy Na'vi culture was a compilation of characteristics from indigenous communities from around the world that he had learned from doing a lot of research and reading. However, he said that the plot was based on the "the violent struggles that took place in the past in North America" and he didn't realize that so many battles were still ongoing around the world. "I guess I believed that the world is more enlightened now and that these kind of fights were not quite as common as they were then. As a result of a success of the movie, so many people have come to me and said, 'This is happening right now in our communities.' It was a wake up call for me."


"This story of Pandora is the story of the fight of all the indigenous around the world," Condori said, "it has been the story going on for years, and is still going on. That is why I thank you for this movie. … It gives hope, and a positive message to the indigenous communities and that is why we see you aligned with us on this fight."


"We all feel something about nature, everybody," Cameron said, "but a lot of people have it suppressed. They are in denial of the problems and they want to turn a blind eye and they don't want to see what is happening to all of you. Hopefully this film reminds them that they do have a conscience and a heart and that they do feel something."


"Through my art as a filmmaker, I decided to finally to say something to express my moral outrage about what was happening on this planet to the natural world and to the indigenous people who are the best stewards of that natural world," Cameron said. "… But unfortunately there are still resources in the ground that are yet to be dug up and, plundered if you will, it is so critical that we deal with these issues now. I think time is running out for our civilization to shift its set of values, this is what I was trying to say with Avatar."
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While Cameron expressed "cause fatigue" from being contacted by so many people and organizations to invite him to join in on their struggles, he stressed his commitment. "For right now my activism has to be at a global level," he said. He explained his main interest will be to focus on situations where conflict has arisen between the necessity for energy development and economic growth and the rights of indigenous peoples and the protections of their lands. He urged Canada and the United States to sign the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, the last two U.N. member countries remaining to sign-on after New Zealand announced April 19 it would now support the declaration.


And that activism might take him home to Canada. He said he is very interested to learn more about the devastation caused by the extraction of crude oil in the Athabasca tar sands in northeastern Alberta. "I do think that direct action, using media, appealing to the conscience of the public by the media sources can do some good," Cameron said.


This will delight Gerge Poitras, of the Mikisew Cree First Nation who has been battling tar sands oil extraction companies. "I went to see the film with my two young nephews," Poitras said at the afternoon panel. "I realized during the film that this was the story of so many indigenous peoples all around the world, and definitely the story about me and my people's struggles."


Poitras said told Cameron that he was deeply moved by the scene in Avatar where the mother, Mo'at, comes to Jake after the destruction of Home Tree and says, "If you are truly one of us, then help us."
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^ That's about as comprehensive as you're gonna get when it comes to Cameron's thought process and what he wants to say with Avatar and its relationship to indigenous people
 
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excelsiorlef

excelsiorlef

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Sibersk Esto said:
The conversation between Avatar and indigenous groups and the reception has been pretty varied, going by this taking place in 2010:

https://indypendent.org/2010/04/avatar-activism-james-cameron-joins-indigenous-struggles-worldwide/








^ That's about as comprehensive as you're gonna get when it comes to Cameron's thought process when it comes to what he wants to say with Avatar and its relationship to indigenous people
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We all need to be white messiahs is certainly a take
 
darksider321

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Dec 8, 2020
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Kaah said:
It's really blatant how some of you don't give a shit about what indigenous people thinks of the movie and you're just using the controversy to fuel your shitty brand war. So embarrassing.
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You are not a saint yourself considering the first comment in this thread is about you picking on someone giving an example of good representation instead of discussing about the current thread.
 
Heynongman!

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Kaah said:
It's really blatant how some of you don't give a shit about what indigenous people thinks of the movie and you're just using the controversy to fuel your shitty brand war. So embarrassing.
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Really strange response to a pretty poignant post. Having PoC writing scripts and making major films is a pretty good step toward getting media that doesn't treat PoC like shit or exploit harmful stereotypes. I'm failing to see how it shows they don't give a shit nor how it fuels a shitty brand war to point out how another studio is doing better at learning from mistakes not unlike Cameron's. Flippant as it may be.
 
Uncivilized Elk

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"but in this movie, I am trying to make everybody a white messiah"

"but in this movie, I am trying to make everybody a white messiah"

"but in this movie, I am trying to make everybody a white messiah"

"but in this movie, I am trying to make everybody a white messiah"

"but in this movie, I am trying to make everybody a white messiah"

"but in this movie, I am trying to make everybody a white messiah"

"but in this movie, I am trying to make everybody a white messiah"

Matthew-McConaughey-smoking-marijuana-joint-pot-cannabis.gif
 
Pai Pai Master

Pai Pai Master

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He doesn't want to listen, he doubled down on that bullshit for the 2nd movie and thinks he did something great

Watershed said:
I am very uncomfortable with how CG is allowing white actors to pose as alien-stand-ins for indigenous people.
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people really don't seem to get it or care. look at that thread with everyone celebrating having Weaver play Kiri - the immaculately conceived/colonizer-born superpowered Na'vi. Played by a white woman.
 
Segata Sanshiro

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157
Sibersk Esto said:
I do not disagree with saying that those that have benefited from anti indigenous imperialism have to become aware of that and also contribute if issues are going to be solved.
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Said this before in the other thread, and I think it was even in reply to you:

He has to walk the walk. He talks a big game but then the sequel comes out and it's more of the same. I didn't expect otherwise but only because I have lived 40+ years of empty promises and gestures towards us from people similar to James.
 
OP
OP
El Bombastico

El Bombastico

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Oct 25, 2017
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Sibersk Esto said:
I do not disagree with saying that those that have benefited from anti indigenous imperialism have to become aware of that and also contribute if issues are going to be solved.
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There are ways to do that without having to believe that you must also "save" the poor, helpless, stupid indigenous from their plight.
 
Fj0823

Fj0823

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Uncivilized Elk said:
"but in this movie, I am trying to make everybody a white messiah"

"but in this movie, I am trying to make everybody a white messiah"

"but in this movie, I am trying to make everybody a white messiah"

"but in this movie, I am trying to make everybody a white messiah"

"but in this movie, I am trying to make everybody a white messiah"

"but in this movie, I am trying to make everybody a white messiah"

"but in this movie, I am trying to make everybody a white messiah"

Matthew-McConaughey-smoking-marijuana-joint-pot-cannabis.gif
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How come each quote is WORSE
 
Draper

Draper

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Oct 28, 2017
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Cameron then tapped the panelist to his left on the arm, Oren Lyons, of the Onondaga Nation, and said, "I actually wished I was from your nation, this is absolutely true. We kids all got poison ivy and had to go to the hospital because we tried to build an Iroquois log house, with traditional hatchets and knives."
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This is the best thing I've read ever…ever.
 
Sibersk Esto

Sibersk Esto

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Segata Sanshiro said:
Said this before in the other thread, and I think it was even in reply to you:

He has to walk the walk. He talks a big game but then the sequel comes out and it's more of the same. I didn't expect otherwise but only because I have lived 40+ years of empty promises and gestures towards us from people similar to James.
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It's more of the same because like I said earlier in the thread, there is no "saving" Avatar from what it is after the first movie. Either it is what it is with all the baggage it has or it doesn't exist at all.
 
Doc Laserstein

Doc Laserstein

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Oct 25, 2017
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CrocM said:
He just doesn't care whatsoever
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It's not surprising. Not only does he get minimal pushback at worst, he gets massively rewarded for his racist tripe.

And so called allies here and elsewhere just don't give a fuck. They either ignore it completely, or shrug and go back to one of the seventy Avatar hype threads here.
 
OP
OP
El Bombastico

El Bombastico

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After reading that quote, suddenly the "White Savior fucks the Chief's Daughter and becomes a true native" plot of Avatar 1 all makes sense.

Jesus H. Christ, Cameron...
 
excelsiorlef

excelsiorlef

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Sibersk Esto said:
It's more of the same because like I said earlier in the thread, there is no "saving" Avatar from what it is after the first movie. Either it is what it is with all the baggage it has or it doesn't exist at all.
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Bull

Kill off Jake and all the white VA Na'avi, completely cast the rest with Indigenous people putting them at the lead.

Introduce parts of Pandora with technological based Na'vi civilizations to get over this nonsense of Indigenous people all being these technology free utopian people.

There's part 4 and 5 still. Plenty of time in 6 hours, do some of this in part 3 reshoots, he's rich, Disney going to say no?
 
Hours Left

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He doesn't care because he's never been held accountable for any of his intolerance.

It's extremely depressing.
 
Coyote Starrk

Coyote Starrk

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And they are right.


Yet we will still see hype threads and brag thread about it on the front page for weeks.
 
excelsiorlef

excelsiorlef

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excelsiorlef said:
Bull

Kill off Jake and all the white VA Na'avi, completely cast the rest with Indigenous people putting them at the lead.

Introduce parts of Pandora with technological based Na'vi civilizations to get over this nonsense of Indigenous people all being these technology free utopian people.

There's part 4 and 5 still. Plenty of time in 6 hours, do some of this in part 3 reshoots, he's rich, Disney going to say no?
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Oh and acknowledge he's essentially created an excuse for people to wear Indigenous culture backlash free as a costume and denounce that
 
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