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Indigenous critics say Avatar: The Way of Water is "horrible" (UPDATE: New James Cameron Interview, see Threadmarks)

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Fj0823

Fj0823

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TheXbox said:
What aspects of the Na'vi are problematic or appropriated? I've read a couple of these CNBC articles and both of them point to the white savior complex and Cameron's shitty comment about the Lakota Sioux. I'm not dismissing those issues, but the Indigenous criticisms also gesture at specific elements of Avatar as racist caricature. Would appreciate if anyone could point to some articles or resources to read more about this.
Which thread was this?
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www.resetera.com

CNN: Indigenous people are criticizing the ‘Avatar’ sequel for relying on tired tropes (UP: CNBC interviews Lakota representative "It's redface")

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/12/22/entertainment/avatar-2-way-of-water-indigenous-boycott-cec/index.html Good on CNN for bringing this discussion back on the table. Also that Cameron quote doesn't get any better no matter how much I've seen it the last few days.
www.resetera.com www.resetera.com

Specifically this:
www.thewrap.com

James Cameron on Avatar: The Way of Water and Cultural Appropriation

James Cameron says there was "a lot of discussion" around cultural appropriation when creating Avatar: The Way of Water and talks about rooting the film in real cultures.
www.thewrap.com www.thewrap.com

"We had a lot of discussions about cultural appropriation. How much is too much? At what point are you no longer honoring and celebrating a culture, but actually extracting and exploiting?" He said. "So we tried to walk a fine line there and celebrate Polynesian indigenous culture in general, right across through from Hawaii, down through Tahiti, French Polynesia, Māori culture and Samoan culture and so on. And also just put our own swerve on that with our artists in terms of the style of the tattoos and the wardrobe and all that sort of thing."
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Cheney Poole, 27, from Christchurch, New Zealand — known as Otautahi, Aotearoa, in the Maori language — calls the film's portrayal "just another example of the same very upfront and apparent romanticization of colonization."
"It very much romanticizes the idea of what not only Maori are going through but many Indigenous cultures around the world and almost downplays the suffering," both from the past and present, Poole said.
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Messofanego

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LiquidSolid said:
Hmm, I have mixed feelings about this, mainly because the water tribe is so blatantly based on Maori that just claiming the entire franchise is based on Native Americans ends up whitewashing the massive influence Maori had on the second film. Like seriously, if the first Avatar is Pocahontas, then the sequel is Whale Rider.
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Who's claiming this entire franchise is only taking from Native Americans? Cause indigenous is ascribed to more than just one region. And you'd think with such an influence, they would have Maori writers, but they're all white writers. Can't just rely on Cliff Curtis to lift up the whole production on Maori representation and input. You'd think the water tribe would be mostly played by Maori actors. If anything, there are more criticisms that it's taking from various cultures and tribes but flattening them. Much like Raya and the last Dragon did with SE Asian cultures.
 
Kyuuji

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This was Curtis' take on his involvement with the Metkayina for what it's worth. Naturally there are still issues to raise with it as Messofanego accurately points out in the post above. It's still worth hearing the views of Māori people on it though, as Curtis at least seems proud of what he was able to influence.
"I was incredibly inspired by the first film. I felt honoured to be a part of this one – and to bring part of my heritage to it, informed by being Māori and part of Oceania and Polynesian culture."
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One of my heroes since passed, my uncle Toby - there was a dignity in his time, which I idealised and so Tonowari for me is an idealised version of my own ancestors, that we exist in a time when the connection between the land and the sea where we live, where we draw sustenance from, it's symbiotic, it's the same thing.

"We're submerging with the creatures of the ocean. We have stories about that, about our relationship with dolphins and whales. We have stories about giant eagles we used to fly on back. In Aotearoa, back home, these stories exist, but they exist almost like a mythology, and so Tonowari is a manifestation of this."
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www.newshub.co.nz

'I've never been this excited': Cliff Curtis says Avatar role is his best yet

"I can't wait for my kids to see it, I can't wait for the audience to discover it."
www.newshub.co.nz www.newshub.co.nz

Stuff

i.stuff.co.nz i.stuff.co.nz

It doesn't trump the myriad other issues and doesn't intend to. The message is more people should be listening to the people who are a part of the cultures that the Na'vi draw from, so solely looking to Cameron when it comes to views on the Metkayina still works to avoid Curtis' involvement and what he appreciated being able to include.
 
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TheXbox

TheXbox

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Fj0823 said:
www.resetera.com

CNN: Indigenous people are criticizing the ‘Avatar’ sequel for relying on tired tropes (UP: CNBC interviews Lakota representative "It's redface")

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/12/22/entertainment/avatar-2-way-of-water-indigenous-boycott-cec/index.html Good on CNN for bringing this discussion back on the table. Also that Cameron quote doesn't get any better no matter how much I've seen it the last few days.
www.resetera.com www.resetera.com

Specifically this:
www.thewrap.com

James Cameron on Avatar: The Way of Water and Cultural Appropriation

James Cameron says there was "a lot of discussion" around cultural appropriation when creating Avatar: The Way of Water and talks about rooting the film in real cultures.
www.thewrap.com www.thewrap.com



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Thank you. The WaPo article is paywalled, but Indigenous perspectives on the designs and inspirations in the films are what I'm interested in.
 
LiquidSolid

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Fj0823 said:
Well, Maoris also had lots of issues with the film as discussed in the previous thread.

Basically their tattoos being aped and modified to mean nothing. Something Cameron proudly admitted he did in a recent interview, saying he wanted to add "his flavor" to the tattoos.

And of course, white actors in Blueface doing Haka and shitty accents.
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"Maoris' is often used in a derogatory way, you should use Maori as both a singular and a plural.

To be clear, I have a number of issues with the representation of Maoridom in the movie, I'm specifically addressing that the article in the OP is solely focused on Native Americans issues and while I understand and relate to their grievances with the first film, I don't really think it's too relevant for the second one.

Also, I can't remember them ever doing a haka? Definitely did pukana when they were getting fired up but that's not a haka.

Messofanego said:
Who's claiming this entire franchise is only taking from Native Americans? Cause indigenous is ascribed to more than just one region. And you'd think with such an influence, they would have Maori writers, but they're all white writers. Can't just rely on Cliff Curtis to lift up the whole production on Maori representation and input. You'd think the water tribe would be mostly played by Maori actors. If anything, there are more criticisms that it's taking from various cultures and tribes but flattening them. Much like Raya and the last Dragon did with SE Asian cultures.
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I mean, the article itself focused entirely on Native Americans and if the intention was to include Maori in "Native and Indigenous communities" then we can speak for ourselves.

And yeah, like I said above, I definitely have issues with Maori representation in the film even with the film partly based here and with WETA's involvement (which I think was just CG, not related to the actual designs).
 
construct

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Indigenous critics say Avatar: The Way of Water is "horrible" despite $1B in ticket sales (CNBC)


an insanely moronic article title
 
PlanetSmasher

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subpar spatula said:
This is impossible. All fictional cultures are taken from real world cultures, ideas, etc. No idea is born in a vacuum. Every single fictional race, culture, religion, etc has its influences taken straight from human civilization.
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There's a difference from being subconsciously influenced by real world cultures and flat-out deliberately mining other people's cultures and rituals for profit.
 
breakdancing duck

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User Banned (2 Weeks): Dismissing Concerns of Cultural Appropriation
subpar spatula said:
This is impossible. All fictional cultures are taken from real world cultures, ideas, etc. No idea is born in a vacuum. Every single fictional race, culture, religion, etc has its influences taken straight from human civilization.
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This is exactly right. Using 10 foot blue people with feline features who neurologically connect to other animals and the sentient planet hasn't prevented people from feeling that there is cultural appropriation an Avatar.
 
excelsiorlef

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breakdancing duck said:
This is exactly right. Using 10 foot blue people with feline features who neurologically connect to other animals and the sentient planet hasn't prevented people from feeling that there is cultural appropriation an Avatar.
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Because he literally says he took from Indigenous cultures across the land to make the Na'vi

It's not feeling it's fact
 

Deleted member 8750

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Agrabah in Disney's Aladdin is technically fictional but it's obviously inspired by Arabic culture and there have been many critics from Arab people with the way they're depicted in that movie.

If you take racist real-world stereotypes and port them directly into a fictional world, then it's going to bring all the baggage that comes with it. The Na'vi are literally the ultimate Noble Savage in a movie that is a sci-fi retelling of the colonization of the Americas. We know this because James Cameron has explicitly made it clear that this is the story he wants to tell.
 
Fj0823

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On the topic of actors giving their approval. I feel there's a difference in for example, Temuera Morrison incorporating his culture into his performance, reflected in the way Boba Fett moves, behaves and fights and then being encouraged by the creative team versus Cameron going "oooooooh cool I wanna be just like that" and just going for it with no input at a conceptual level.
 
viandante

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StrayDog said:
1PfknhF.png
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i'm dying
JC a big fan of THE WHITES
 
azfaru

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I swear to god if these ash people/lava type na'vis in avatar 3 who are supposed to be evil na'vis turn out to be analogous to middle eastern cultures… that'd be so frustrating lol. Can we have alien cultures in movies be actually alien?
 
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El Bombastico

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azfaru said:
I swear to god if these ash people/lava type na'vis in avatar 3 who are supposed to be evil na'vis turn out to be analogous to middle eastern cultures… that'd be so frustrating lol. Can we have alien cultures in movies be actually alien?
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Since they're evil Navi, they'll be scalping people and/or eating them...
 
The Albatross

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I find the title of the article/thread to be so weird, like as if there's a relationship between a movie doing well at the box office and not being offensive.
 
Ether_Snake

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Funny title.

"Indigenous critics criticize colonial government, even though empire's returns on investments skyrocket 300%!"
 
excelsiorlef

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breakdancing duck said:
I shouldn't have used the word feeling. It's clear that the atrocities against native Americans, Viet Cong, and others are being referenced in order to tell a pro environmental anti-imperialist sci-fi movie.
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No he's literally researching different Indigenous cultures and taking traits and traditions from them and putting them in a blender
 
purplemonkey111

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breakdancing duck said:
I shouldn't have used the word feeling. It's clear that the atrocities against native Americans, Viet Cong, and others are being referenced in order to tell a pro environmental anti-imperialist sci-fi movie.
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He is literally taking oppressed cultures, introducing a white savior in vlue face to show them how to fight.

And even thou avatar 2 jake was not the chief in the water tribe, he was still the o e calling the shots.

ex. When they first found the dead whales, they were all going to war but Jake made them stop and instead only tell him which whale was tagged so he can go to try to disable the tag.

but when its his kids in danger then its all hands on deck and they attack the whale ship.
 
metalslimer

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You never see the same people passing their pants in celebration of it success ever actually confront these issues
 
Palette Swap

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That "yeah but fiction has to come from a real place anyway" argument is an utterly useless derail. I don't know nor care if it comes from a place of ignorance or bad faith to sink the conversation.

The fact JC has gone on record multiple times over the years makes it entirely moot. We're not discussing whether some random sci-fi novel might remotely echo x culture, we're discussing the fact a dude with a history of problematic shit in his movies has chosen to strip mine native cultures and reinforce stereotypes to make these box office bilions you're all cheering on. How fucking hard can it be to follow ?
 
Akira86

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The Albatross said:
I find the title of the article/thread to be so weird, like as if there's a relationship between a movie doing well at the box office and not being offensive.
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in a capitalism, if it makes a billion dollars it is allowed to offend, and capitalists don't consider it horrible.

the news is just talking to their true audience.
 
Fj0823

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A friend of mine once told me that when you remove the CGI alien effects.

You're left with, well...this.

avatar-Fans_1.jpg
 
excelsiorlef

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I wanna go back to the unilad interview from a few weekd ago

"I hope they don't; I hope they see the intention, which is to celebrate the wisdom keepers. I see the indigenous people that still remain in our world today as the people who are more connected to nature than we are in our industrialised urbanised civilization, and we need to learn from them.

"The movie is intended to celebrate those philosophies, that spirituality. If we offend anybody in the process, I can only apologise, but we're doing the best we can."
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www.unilad.com

James Cameron addresses Avatar ‘racism’ accusations

Legendary director James Cameron has addressed accusations of racism in Avatar, saying 'the important thing is to listen'
www.unilad.com www.unilad.com

His comments on technology are infuriating

He's a filmmaker who prides himself on pushing the power of technology further and further but waxes romantically about the Indigenous earth people and their freedom from technology

He has enough money he could go live his disconnected dream, but he doesn't, because he loves technology

It's hilarious how so called benevolent and malevolent racism are basically identical in perception just differ in who they deem superior

Both Cameron and Western Supremacists believe that without colonialism technology and the industrial revolution would never have happened

The only difference is who they think that makes superior.


Witj Cameron it is extra laughable because he's as a fetish for technological advancement as he is for his perception of the Magical Indigenous Earth Whisperers.
 
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El Bombastico

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Cameron having a Neo-Luddite attitude and fetishising Indigenous as perfect wood elves free of technology, while also being the biggest pioneers of CGI and 3D technology, is just so bizarre to me.
 
Zeliard

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El Bombastico said:
Cameron having a Neo-Luddite attitude and fetishising Indigenous as perfect wood elves free of technology, while also being the biggest pioneers of CGI and 3D technology, is just so bizarre to me.
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He undoubtedly has a very patronizing attitude here. It's his biggest blind spot.

Someone made a comment either here or in the other thread that Cameron basically sees indigenous people like a fantasy RPG race. I've criticized him a number of times for homogenizing the indigenous across the world and across time like they're a singular culture. And I like him. And I like Avatar (though I still haven't seen the second).

But there really is a whole lot of genuine shit here to genuinely criticize. And it goes far beyond just Cameron and this movie. Avatar gets the brunt of it because it's so massively popular but demeaning tropes - intentional or not - are part and parcel of Hollywood. One of my favorite movies ever is Temple of Doom and whenever I think or talk about it I do wrestle with the problematic elements there, and completely understand people who dismiss it entirely just on those grounds. And I don't really know how to reconcile it all.
 
Art_3

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Fj0823 said:
A friend of mine once told me that when you remove the CGI alien effects.

You're left with, well...this.

avatar-Fans_1.jpg
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It is interesting how people maybe subconsciously understand that Na'vi cosplays are wrong so you barely see them.
Maybe that will change next Halloween tho, ugh😬
 
Uncivilized Elk

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Fj0823 said:
A friend of mine once told me that when you remove the CGI alien effects.

You're left with, well...this.

avatar-Fans_1.jpg
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I can never not uncomfortably laugh at this pic.

We truly are all white messiahs.
HOLY FUCK the title of the final film better fucking be:
Avatar: We Are All White Messiahs

You can have that one for free, King Slimjim.
 
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Hyun Sai

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Saw it in 3D today, was more offensive, boring and predictable than I thought it would be. Was pretty though.
 
Strider_Blaze

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Well I did have a rando (won't link) on twitter respond to a tweet of mine putting underserved in quotes, as I did say it's not deserving of its success. Then I see his replies on the article, which is nothing but a who cares and that the people have spoken. It's sad that the latter part is pretty true unfortunately. Course I didn't dignify the user with a resposne and promptly blocked them.
 
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El Bombastico

El Bombastico

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Strider_Blaze said:
Well I did have a rando (won't link) on twitter respond to a tweet of mine putting underserved in quotes, as I did say it's not deserving of its success. Then I see his replies on the article, which is nothing but a who cares and that the people have spoken. It's sad that the latter part is pretty true unfortunately. Course I didn't dignify the user with a resposne and promptly blocked them.
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I'll just say this; he a piece of shit, but at least he's flat out admitting that he just does not care.

Far too many people both here and across the internet seemed to determined to either bury their heads in the sand and ignore the issues entirely, try to downplay it entirely with bullshit "well, its not as you're making it out to be!" statements, or worse of all, shouting over people raising the issues and saying none of it is problematic at all. All these people just need to stop beating around the bush and just admit they also don't give a shit and want to watch their White Savior Noble Savages franchise without feeling guilty about it.
 
loco

loco

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Not even joking but I think "White Messiah Themes" should be added to the list of rating board descriptions to G, PG and PG13
 
freetacos

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My biggest takeaways from this whole thing:

- You absolutely cannot use phrases like "well meaning", "ally", or "blind spot" (though that has its own can of worms) w/r/t Cameron on this issue. It's become clear that he "listens" yet similar issues continue to arise. Don't play defense for a dude who continues these unsensitive patterns despite 'saying the right thing'.

- Saying Avatar can't be fixed or "it's either this version or nothing" I think is an absolutely lazy and bullshit response that hand-waves meaningful changes that he could/should implement
 
Scrappy-Fan92

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Disclaimer: I have not seen the second movie, and I don't know if I want to at this point.

What I do know is that I'm going to do something hard but really not that hard: swallow my ego and just sit back and observe this discussion with the goal of learning something, because it's necessary. So I thank you all for bringing this to my attention.
 
Uncivilized Elk

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freetacos said:
Saying Avatar can't be fixed or "it's either this version or nothing" I think is an absolutely lazy and bullshit response that hand-waves meaningful changes that he could/should implement
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I think based on the context of the post, that can also just be people communicating that they can't ever imagine Jimmy Cameron listening to anyone other than King James "Never Bet Against Him" Cameron, since he failed to learn for decades now (while the public celebrates him the entire time) which means this 'ol white man has no incentive to legitimately learn anything or change in any substantial way.

He may honestly think he's honoring indigenous people, but he's just found a blue veil to cover his self-insert racist wanker fantasies with. And folks largely don't give half a shit about what's behind that (friggin' translucent) curtain.
 
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