"Objective" criticism doesn't exist. I don't care about the "developer's intent," I care about my experience with the game. Which was resoundingly negative.
None of what you posted is new information to me either.
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Into the Breach |OT| FTL: Fighting Tactical Leviathans
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None of what you posted is new information to me either.
Objective criticism does exist but it makes sense that you would be quick to write off something you clearly don't understand—again.
Wrong. Objective criticism of video games absolutely does not exist. Full stop.
I had a bad experience with the game and explained why. That's really all there is to it. Sorry if that upsets you.
I am not upset and I don't think there is anything wrong with feeling one way or another about your own experience. I was commenting on your criticism here:
Why would objective criticism be limited to everything but games? Saying the game should do a better job of explaining things to you without providing specific examples of how it doesn't do that makes your observation sound premature.
...objective criticism doesn't exist in any artistic medium. All games criticism is inherently subjective, which is why there's no such thing as "premature" criticism either.
I'm telling you how I felt when I played this game. If you felt different, great, but that doesn't make my experience any less real. I can't give specific examples because to do that I'd have to keep playing the game to learn whatever it is I don't know, and I'm not willing to do that after the miserable experience I've already had. The game lost me and I've moved on.
Also, a side note: I'm not accusing you of this, but just so you know... promoting the false "objective criticism in video games" narrative is usually a GamerGate dog whistle.
Most definitely not gamer gate. I like the game and had the complete opposite experience from yours when learning the mechanics which is widely regarded as masterful in its design/execution and is why your post stood out to me. I am not trying to discredit you or your opinion. Our conversation is obviously not going to become productive so I will stop here.
Edit: In hindsight, maybe I should have replaced 'objective criticism' with 'informed opinion'.
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I think the issue here is that the take-away was the player seemed lucky. There is very little RNG in this game- you can absolutely consistently win once your comfortable with it. It seems like you've moved on at this point, but if you captured a video of yourself playing the game, people would be absolutely willing to help.
This seems needlessly hostile toward the devs. They may have made a game that ultimately didn't click with you, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any evidence Subset hates their players.
If you're struggling and your first step is to criticize the game, that seems strange. The question is whether other people are struggling and whether they are able to overcome their difficulties and succeed. There are two (non-mutually exclusive) possibilities: there are issues with the game or there are issues with the player. It doesn't seem like you've considered the latter.
Holy fucking shit. I guess it takes a lot of work to make every day's shitpost worse than the last; it's almost impressive.
Been playing a lot this past week and Flame Behemoths are so fun. I was having trouble wrapping my head around being unable to do direct damage (for the first turn) on each unit, but once you have half the map lit up that doesn't matter all that much. And the tech unit is crazy good once you have some range on it. Saved many a run already!
They're definitely one of my favourite squads. It's great once you get a few upgrades and then the entire board is on fire all the time.
I've only unlocked three squads so far but man running a custom squad with 3 artillery mechs (Rift, Rusting, and Judo) is so fun and honestly a bit OP. The enemy is basically in range almost at all times. I'm about to unlock three challenge run achievements with this squad in one run and I could have gotten a fourth but I acted too fast and was not paying close attention at the end of one battle and took one too many mech damage.
I would have gotten the PC version of this if I'd realized there were mods.
You can even keep it up with the Fliers Only custom squad by taking the Frozen Titans artillery unit, the Defence Mech, and Bethany Jones, just don't expect to win any Kill missions.
Meanwhile, I've been trying to get the Lightning War achievement and I'm having the least fun I've had with this game. I don't like Blitzkrieg, I don't like time limits, and I don't like the way RNG keeps spawning a melee/goo Vek directly on my artillery the one turn it's out of rescue range.
Yeah, playing 3 artillery is exactly like being Grit in Advance Wars, you're almost always godlike.
You can even keep it up with the Fliers Only custom squad by taking the Frozen Titans artillery unit, the Defence Mech, and Bethany Jones, just don't expect to win any Kill missions.
Meanwhile, I've been trying to get the Lightning War achievement and I'm having the least fun I've had with this game. I don't like Blitzkrieg, I don't like time limits, and I don't like the way RNG keeps spawning a melee/goo Vek directly on my artillery the one turn it's out of rescue range.
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I like putting Camila Vera on my artillery/ranged unit for that reason. With Blitzkrieg, I tend to rush lightning chaining, and the game gets real wild real quick after that -- very fun. Think I got that achievement with that starting strategy. I don't love the grappling hook tank though. Never found consistent team play use for them outside of blocking shots and displacing enemies.
Sooo, I've just started playing this. Would you guys recommend playing on easy mode for a while while I learn all the mechanics, or is that just going to breed bad habits? I've had 3 games on normal mode, got to the second island each time but eventually die. Wondering if a tone down on the difficulty would benefit me in the long run, but I'm guessing I should just stick with normal mode...
Indeed dial it down to Easy, games by these guys are expected to be started playing on that. "Easy" here means "you're new to the game and learning the ropes" rather than "you're new to videogames and probably holding the controller upside down" like in AAA games.
Don't worry about bad habits, quite the opposite: playing on Easy allows you to experiment more and learn faster.
Thanks for this! Bumped it down to easy and finished it with quite a bit of ease. Now to try again doing every island...enjoying it a lot
So I ended up playing a lot with the version of Bots 'n' Bugs I posted. They're really fun. Roaches are the easiest to deal with in my experience because while they're really resilient with the armor and hit really hard with the acid, they only hit one square. So you just need good movement.
Shield-Bots are bitches. They regenerate the shield and that can make them so problematic in conjunction with the massive space they strike. When they're on the field they should be priority targets.
Blobberlings are the middle of the road. They're easy to put down but they have an obviously high potential for collateral since, like Shield-Bot, they hit four squares. You need good movement and management.
Big damage isn't going to help you much with any of these enemies sans the Roaches, though they're not really worth killing unless the field is too crowded.
Lemonymous recently put out a new version with new enemies that look terrific, but I think I'm going to wait for them to finish the portraits before I try it.
Shield-Bots are bitches. They regenerate the shield and that can make them so problematic in conjunction with the massive space they strike. When they're on the field they should be priority targets.
Blobberlings are the middle of the road. They're easy to put down but they have an obviously high potential for collateral since, like Shield-Bot, they hit four squares. You need good movement and management.
Big damage isn't going to help you much with any of these enemies sans the Roaches, though they're not really worth killing unless the field is too crowded.
Lemonymous recently put out a new version with new enemies that look terrific, but I think I'm going to wait for them to finish the portraits before I try it.
Wow this game is so good. I'll admit I'm still early on but I love me some turn based strategy games and this game hits me at all the right places.
At first it was a simple affair where I would just punch Veks and move on from there but now I'm at the point where I realize pushing these guys every which way is a better call sometimes. And especially when there are environmental hazards. Now I'm just trying to push these guys onto everything bad and let the map take care of them. So fun.
So what happens when I die? Do I lose all my XP and have to start all over?
At first it was a simple affair where I would just punch Veks and move on from there but now I'm at the point where I realize pushing these guys every which way is a better call sometimes. And especially when there are environmental hazards. Now I'm just trying to push these guys onto everything bad and let the map take care of them. So fun.
So what happens when I die? Do I lose all my XP and have to start all over?
You can pick one surviving pilot to take to your next mission. Once you complete a new island, you'll be able to start at that island next time. You'll also encounter and unlock new pilots while playing. Everything else is wiped clean. The main progression mechanic is through the achievements. They're very fun and rewarding. Have a look and try to go after some of them once you get a good feel for the basic mechanics.
So if I lose because all of my pilots died do I start with all fresh pilots? The only time I lost was when all my energy got killed due to my building getting destroyed so I have yet to know what happens.
Yeah, if you lose all of them, you'll be starting with an all new crew.
In theory yes. In practice I don't think that's ever happened to me: death by grid depletion is far more likely to happen.
But that said, don't get too attached to you pilots and don't worry about starting them over. You'll often want to change pilots even if you already have one at max level, even it means starting them from level 1, because some pilots are much better suited for certain mecha. Pilots level up super quick anyway, and all your squad will be level max by the end of most moderately long runs. Some skills are much more useful than others too so if your pilot learned, say, grid protection, you're better off starting a new one.
I guess it's a time as good as any to point out there's two kinds of pilots: unique ones (the ones you getin time pods, unlock, and select in the pilot select screen; they have an unique skill in addition to the ones they randomly learn) and generic ones (the other two your squad is filled with at the start; they only have their random skills). In theory you can send back in time a generic pilot for your next run, but in practice there's little reason to ever do that.
Here's a great podcast with Jason Schreier and Maddy Myers of Kotaku in which they talk to the (two!) designers behind Into the Breach. Highly recommend it if you enjoyed the game and would like to hear more about its development, the designers' vision of the game, and other interesting tidbits.
https://kotaku.com/the-creators-of-into-the-breach-came-very-close-to-givi-1833498295
The recent episodes of Kotaku Splitscreen have all been super interesting by the way. They've been interviewing GDC speakers and other folks in the field who are attending the event. They've had guests like Tim Schafer, Phil Harrison, Sarah Elmaleh (Anthem VA), and Jesse Snyder (the mind behind COD zombies mode) who've all shared really cool stories about the things they've worked on.
https://kotaku.com/the-creators-of-into-the-breach-came-very-close-to-givi-1833498295
The recent episodes of Kotaku Splitscreen have all been super interesting by the way. They've been interviewing GDC speakers and other folks in the field who are attending the event. They've had guests like Tim Schafer, Phil Harrison, Sarah Elmaleh (Anthem VA), and Jesse Snyder (the mind behind COD zombies mode) who've all shared really cool stories about the things they've worked on.
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What happens if I lose just one pilot during a mission? Are they revived at the end of the mission or are they subbed in with an AI bot that doesn't gain experience anymore until I start a new run and get a new pilot?
Kind of a stupid question but I'm in a middle of a good run right now and want to know what my options are, whether I can sacrifice a pilot without suffering too much.
Kind of a stupid question but I'm in a middle of a good run right now and want to know what my options are, whether I can sacrifice a pilot without suffering too much.
Subbed in with an AI that doesn't gain experience like you said. The pilot's abilities and bonuses are lost for good. If you find/earn a spare pilot you can slot them in though. You can always get an extra pilot if you complete all corporate objectives on an island. It's one of the three bonus rewards (pilot, 2 grid points, or technology).
Pilots can always be traded in for two stars by the way, so if you're not interested in the tech, that's a good way to save up some extra credits for the next island.
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Nice, second run with the default starting team and I made it all the way to the end. My guys got pretty powerful at the end but I found that positioning played a much higher importance than raw power. Only my main mech could punch for 4 damage and one shot most baddies. The other 2 were pretty much involved in pushing Veks out of the way, pushing them onto hazards, and blocking spawning points.
Had a blast the whole 7 hours it took me to get to the end after completing all 4 islands. Got to unlock some new squads but for some reason not feeling inspired to run through it again even though I know my team formation will be different. The game uses my brain in a pretty stressful but fun way so not sure I can take another 5-7 hours lol. Maybe in the future!
Had a blast the whole 7 hours it took me to get to the end after completing all 4 islands. Got to unlock some new squads but for some reason not feeling inspired to run through it again even though I know my team formation will be different. The game uses my brain in a pretty stressful but fun way so not sure I can take another 5-7 hours lol. Maybe in the future!
I have to say I'm much in agreement with the guy who got mauled out of the thread a few pages ago (sorry but it does read a bit like that) in regards to the difficulty levels - I have played dozens of strategy games in my life and I would have never considered going for 'easy' on this, but the beginning of the game does a poor job explaining its mechanics and on normal that may mean a Game Over after a couple of maps.
I've played it for about 8 hours over Easter and while I generally like it and will continue to play it a bit more, the moment I found out (the hard way) that this was a roguelike my interest in the game dropped considerably. I appreciate the makers were a two-man band, but I wish the game had a fleshed out story (the fantastic music and great presentation hint at stuff that doesn't really go anywhere) and that progression meant something, I could even forgive the cardinal sin of RNG maps then.
Alas, decent but not a keeper for me.
I've played it for about 8 hours over Easter and while I generally like it and will continue to play it a bit more, the moment I found out (the hard way) that this was a roguelike my interest in the game dropped considerably. I appreciate the makers were a two-man band, but I wish the game had a fleshed out story (the fantastic music and great presentation hint at stuff that doesn't really go anywhere) and that progression meant something, I could even forgive the cardinal sin of RNG maps then.
Alas, decent but not a keeper for me.
Fair enough, I'd say. Roguelikes are usually not my cup of tea either. But before you give up on the game entirely, perhaps try going after the unlocks (in the in-game achievement page), play to beat those challenges and get some new squads. I had a great time going after those.
As for the difficulty, the onboarding could probably have been smoother. It's complicated, I imagine, because once the game really clicks, you can win just about every (normal) run unless you hit an especially bad unlucky streak.
And the maps aren't actually RNG. They're all hand crafted (IIRC there are a little over 1000 maps in there). The only thing that's decided by a ruleset is Vek placement and type, I'm pretty sure. This was discussed by the devs on a recent episode of Kotaku Splitscreen.
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Yeah after unlocking a few achievements and grabbing some other squads, I was hooked. And normally I need a story for these kind of games, but in the end there is just enough of a wrapper there and the mechanics are so satisfying that it ended up being in my top 5 from last year GotY.
It's a new and clever take on turn-based strategy games, don't get me wrong. And the music is just... incredible. I think the lore in the game could have been brilliant if they explored it a bit more too. It's just... a roguelike :(
I like games that push me to the edge but at some point give you a breather (like, well done, that was a difficult level that demanded a lot of you, but you've finally conquered it). This game is unrelenting - I'm playing it with my buttcheeks clenched at all times. The investment - reward ratio is just not worth it for me.
I like games that push me to the edge but at some point give you a breather (like, well done, that was a difficult level that demanded a lot of you, but you've finally conquered it). This game is unrelenting - I'm playing it with my buttcheeks clenched at all times. The investment - reward ratio is just not worth it for me.
But it's not a strategy game, it's a tactics game.
Into the Breach is really fun. I loved it dearly, and it made me pick up FTL. The roguelike elements are a slight turn-off to me; the lack of a campaign proper hurt me a bit and ended up being the reason I broke off from it incredibly quickly to play God Wars - Future Past, Ambition of the Slimes and Luminous Arc between ItB sessions.
You're probably going to complain that I'm "mauling on you too", but that's such a weird take. I mean, it's fine to not like something, especially if you expected something else (which is on you for not looking for information), but calling an universally acclaimed, world-class game "decent" because you dislike roguelikes and wanted story in it is just odd. I'd be like me going into a Call of Duty thread and saying the game is just "decent" because I expected a RTS and hate first person shooters.
"This spoon is terrible for cutting steak; decent but not a keeper".
I just came to give my opinion on the OT of a much acclaimed game. I normally don't post but I noticed that other people had voiced similar concerns about it so I thought I'd add my two cents. I think it's healthy that there's a range of opinions because lord knows I'm not the only one who does not enjoy roguelikes.
I'm not outraged, just disappointed in the game as I normally enjoy turn-based games.
You're not mauling me, you're just very patronising.
I'm not outraged, just disappointed in the game as I normally enjoy turn-based games.
You're not mauling me, you're just very patronising.
OK, how would you word "criticism a product's quality because you wanted or expected a completely different product is weird" in a way that doesn't sound patronizing?
I've been playing this a good bit over the last week and loving it. The only thing is I can't get past the 2nd island and I have only unlocked one additional set of mechs (which seem worse than the first set). Any tips from others? Should I focus on unlocking more coins to get new mechs? Should I start a new campaign at the second island? I always go back to the first when I start a new timeline.
If you're playing on Normal, switch to Easy until you can consistently beat the game.
If you're already playing on Easy, you may want to watch videos of experts to learn how to play efficiently without losing any grid power. There's a lot of little tips and strategies that can help you become better at the game, but not so many sweeping "big tips" that improve your game across the board that I can think off the top of my head, besides the few obvious ones like:
- [This one is not obvious] Blocking Vek from emerging makes more enemies spawn on the next turn, which can be dangerous; it's best to pace them so that about three Vek are alive at any given time. On the second to last turn, however, you can block without fear since no more Vek will spawn.
- Priorize protecting the buildings, your mechs regenerate at the end of battle. E.g. don't be afraid to body block shots that won't kill you.
- Pretty much every turn can be "solved" in a way that prevents all building damage. Most often this means thinking for quite a bit of time, so if you're getting beat, devote more time to thinking about each turn.
- Cores are the most important "currency" in the game. Reputation is the second most important currency because it can be turned into cores.
- Stages that give you three currency are harder and can be dangerous to attempt unless you are ahead of the curve or simply a very good player.
- Getting a perfect island run (no missed objectives) awards you with a choice of three rewards, one of which is a pilot that can be donated for reputation to buy, you guessed it, cores.
Thanks a lot for this analysis. Really useful! I was playing on normal so I'll try switching to easy for now and using your advice. Thanks again.
Absolutely delighted to help. :)
I wonder if I should at some point make a "tips compilation" post like I did for FTL back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth...
I just picked up this game on Switch a week ago, it's amazing, fully understand why it was on so many Top 10/GotY lists. I just got my first clear and I can the FTL influence all over it.
Got the game on Sunday and really liking it so far. Have made the final battle once and thought I'd done it but
The first island often feels like the hardest which is odd as I'm trained to expect the start of a run to ease me in - not the case with this game! One thing I'm struggling with is when to decide that grid damage is unavoidable as I feel like I'm often staring for ages at an unsolvable turn.
I didn't expect the second phase and got wrecked. Was a bit disappointed
The first island often feels like the hardest which is odd as I'm trained to expect the start of a run to ease me in - not the case with this game! One thing I'm struggling with is when to decide that grid damage is unavoidable as I feel like I'm often staring for ages at an unsolvable turn.
I found that most times grid damage is indeed avoidable (unless you really screwed yourself), but not worth defending. Between getting mission objectives (for the bonus rewards at the end of an island) or taking grid damage, I always go for objectives unless I've got a good kit and am planning on finishing the game after the current island.
OK thanks. A few questions.
Doesn't your grid get dangerously depleted that way? Then do you spend rep on grid repair? (which I've heard is not a good idea).
I think I often screw myself then as sometimes a bug is attacking a building and I can only reach it with one mech and it happens to be the one that can't attack it for some reason (it'll push onto the building, it has to leap over and there's no space, there's smoke in the way etc). This seems to happen quite often.
I try to go after some of the objectives that give back grid power and sometimes I do buy back grid power when there's nothing interesting in the shop. So I wouldn't say it's always a bad idea.
As for getting to unreachable mobs. It's tricky. Sometimes you can use unexpected environmental interactions to deal with that. It's worth experimenting with those if you're only just starting out. Creating smoke by attacking a tile will disable a unit, setting the field on fire will narrow angles of attack for the enemy, etc. The direct attack abilities are only a small part of your options. It's also partly a factor of managing your unit placement. You generally want your artillery/tech unit to have as much movement as possible for example. With the first team, it also helps a lot to rush the ability that negates building damage on artillery so you can push enemies away from infrastructure.
OK cool, thanks for that it's useful. I don't think I'm making enough use of the map or seeing the grid tactically as a whole. Really looking forward to developing my skills, it's awesome.
Oh yeah, it's really satisfying to learn about all options you have and then eventually seeing a plan come together. I didn't start using smoke or fire to my advantage until quite a few hours in. It'll take some time, but the user experience / interface is designed such that you should have access to all information you need to plan your turn. There are very few games quite like it. Recalling your earlier post about the last stage, one thing I found immensely useful was to remind myself it is indeed the final stage, so the goal is to win whatever the cost. Sometimes you need to make a dramatic sacrifice to get across that finish line!
I still boot this game up on occasion and try to get a perfect run on Hard mode (30,000 pts). I've come one battle short of doing it a handful of times now.
One thing that I still struggle with even after so many hours is positioning during the initial deployment. You can get wrecked so hard on the 1st turn and there's no reset option to save you. I really don't put enough thought into the enemies' movement options and tendencies.
One thing that I still struggle with even after so many hours is positioning during the initial deployment. You can get wrecked so hard on the 1st turn and there's no reset option to save you. I really don't put enough thought into the enemies' movement options and tendencies.
Got my first win! A two islander with the rusting hulks on normal. Feels good. The last stage wasn't that hard and I won with lots of grid left over. I've really started to focus on blocking vek from spawning and it's paying off.
Think I'll try a three islander next with the same squad as I'm used to their abilities.
Think I'll try a three islander next with the same squad as I'm used to their abilities.