Into the Breach |OT| FTL: Fighting Tactical Leviathans

jotun? · Jan 14, 2020

I was expecting to like this a lot after loving FTL and thoroughly enjoying XCom and Mario&Rabbids. But it kind of fell flat for me.

I've had two winning runs, one failed, and abandoned a couple after having bad times on the first island. (normal difficulty)

There's been a lot of focus on how the game doesn't use RNG for accuracy or damage like other tactical games.. but other forms of randomness are really making me lose interest.

The big one is not knowing what type of enemies are about to pop out of the ground. This makes it feel nearly impossible to really plan ahead, and each turn feels like an independent puzzle, largely disconnected from what came before it, that may or may not have have a good solution. In my last game I thought I was in a good position, with only the Volatile Vek alive and two emerging. But then those two emerging were both hoppers -- long movement range, ignore obstacles, high damage, and WEBBING. Together with the volatile scorpion, they webbed all three of my mechs, and I just didn't have any way to handle that at all. It felt really unfair and random.

Sixfortyfive · Jan 15, 2020

jotun? said:
I was expecting to like this a lot after loving FTL and thoroughly enjoying XCom and Mario&Rabbids. But it kind of fell flat for me.

I've had two winning runs, one failed, and abandoned a couple after having bad times on the first island. (normal difficulty)

There's been a lot of focus on how the game doesn't use RNG for accuracy or damage like other tactical games.. but other forms of randomness are really making me lose interest.

The big one is not knowing what type of enemies are about to pop out of the ground. This makes it feel nearly impossible to really plan ahead, and each turn feels like an independent puzzle, largely disconnected from what came before it, that may or may not have have a good solution. In my last game I thought I was in a good position, with only the Volatile Vek alive and two emerging. But then those two emerging were both hoppers -- long movement range, ignore obstacles, high damage, and WEBBING. Together with the volatile scorpion, they webbed all three of my mechs, and I just didn't have any way to handle that at all. It felt really unfair and random.

When you hover your mouse over the island on the island select map, it will tell you what kind of enemies will spawn on that island for that playthrough, as well as the boss type for each island. You can use this to plan ahead a little bit and avoid specific problem vek until you're better equipped, although I'm pretty sure you can't double-check the list after selecting the island and thus must remember the vek list.

I also find this game more frustrating and generally less enjoyable than FTL, but that should be interpreted more as praise for FTL than criticism for ITB. Since my last post in this thread, I finally achieved the perfect game milestone that I was going for (hard mode, no grid damage, no failed objectives, no lost pilots, all 4 islands cleared).

Weltall Zero · Jan 15, 2020

Hearing this

Sixfortyfive said:
When you hover your mouse over the island on the island select map, it will tell you what kind of enemies will spawn on that island for that playthrough, as well as the boss type for each island. You can use this to plan ahead a little bit and avoid specific problem vek until you're better equipped, although I'm pretty sure you can't double-check the list after selecting the island and thus must remember the vek list.

I also find this game more frustrating and generally less enjoyable than FTL, but that should be interpreted more as praise for FTL than criticism for ITB. Since my last post in this thread, I finally achieved the perfect game milestone that I was going for (hard mode, no grid damage, no failed objectives, no lost pilots, all 4 islands cleared).

This point of view is interesting, because I felt like I was defending FTL from criticism of unfairness and randomness all the time back then, while ITB seemed to be received much better in that regard (probably helps that it's much easier to complete a game). This is basically the first time I've heard the opposite opinion. Even Ma and Davis themselves commented that they tried to tone down the impact of RNG as much as possible this time around. That said, you have played a lot more than I am (I haven't unlocked any of the FTL guys in ITB) so you obviously know what you're talking about. Do you feel there's anything in particular that makes it more frustrating than FTL?

Sixfortyfive · Jan 15, 2020

Weltall Zero said:
Do you feel there's anything in particular that makes it more frustrating than FTL?

It mostly comes down to the fact that taking grid damage in ITB is far more costly on average than taking hull damage in FTL.

RNG is overstated in both games due to player inexperience. In FTL, decision-making becomes so much easier once you can recognize 95% of the enemy weapons on sight and know exactly which random events show up in which sectors and at what beacons. You should be able to properly assess threats at all times and be proactive about most of them. You'll never willingly go into a Rock sector without level 5 engines if you know what you're doing, for example. In general you should be able to play the odds and succeed in the vast majority of cases outside of sectors 1-2 with the worst ships. ITB is similar in that you should typically be able to plan around the enemy capabilities, especially since it goes to the length of literally telegraphing every enemy move.

But in FTL you get 30 points of hull damage to play with before it's game over. In ITB you get 8 points of grid damage. And in both games, there will just eventually be cases where taking the least-bad option of the moment means that you have to take a hit somewhere, be it a true 50/50 random event in FTL that you just couldn't avoid or an especially bad opening turn on ITB that puts you at extremely poor positioning without the option of rewind.

An FTL encounter where you soak up 5 points of hull damage is pretty bad, but it's usually easy for me to shrug off for a lot of reasons. In general it's very easy to avoid damage altogether in most encounters if you know what you're doing and haven't dug yourself into a hole, and with most ships I rarely have to repair at stores. I usually play for score in that game now, which leads to some crazy decision making that is inadvisable but still feasible. (I literally finished a Crystal B run yesterday where--because the ship starts with no weapons--I'd board oxygen-less auto scouts, tear them down to 1 HP from the inside via system damage, then purposely soak up hull damage on my ship in the hopes of triggering the 10% chance on the Crystal Vengeance augmentation in order to actually destroy the enemy ship. The smart play is obviously to run from these early game encounters until you find a weapon, but I'd literally just spend a third of my lifebar or more to defeat a single enemy that I could easily run from in order to maximize score, and I can typically get away with it. On an especially good run, I can just farm enemy ships behind the red line in a nebula indefinitely.)

I never feel like I have those same luxuries in ITB. You never want to take grid damage in this game because your grid meter is so short. So you're always pigeon-holed into trying to play perfectly in every single encounter. This is compounded by the extra mission objectives in each encounter; you absolutely do not want to fail any of them, both for the individual objective rewards and for the extra post-island rewards that you only get if you run the table on every single objective on the island. This makes those cases where you're forced into something like "Defeat 7 enemies" with a low-damage squad extremely frustrating. I feel like I'm constantly pressured to play perfectly in this game against occasionally tough odds where I feel no similar pressure in FTL and can just shrug off bad encounters. Even though I've logged a "perfect game" in ITB but not in FTL (to my recollection), a big part of the reason why I felt compelled to do so in ITB in the first place is because the pressure to play perfectly is so much greater.

EDIT: I think the thing that really underscores my feelings on how much I'm pressured to play perfectly comes down to how much more willing I am to go for crazy runs in FTL. Like I've completed a No Oxygen run, a No Medbay run, a No Weapon run, a No Shield run, and a Semi-Pacifist run (take every surrender and non-violent option to end encounters), all on Hard mode, and I frequently play low-tier ships for variety's sake. In contrast, I rarely stray from Ice Mech + Mafan in ITB unless I really want to switch things up.

Weltall Zero · Jan 15, 2020

Sixfortyfive said:
It mostly comes down to the fact that taking grid damage in ITB is far more costly on average than taking hull damage in FTL.

RNG is overstated in both games due to player inexperience. In FTL, decision-making becomes so much easier once you can recognize 95% of the enemy weapons on sight and know exactly which random events show up in which sectors and at what beacons. You should be able to properly assess threats at all times and be proactive about most of them. You'll never willingly go into a Rock sector without level 5 engines if you know what you're doing, for example. In general you should be able to play the odds and succeed in the vast majority of cases outside of sectors 1-2 with the worst ships. ITB is similar in that you should typically be able to plan around the enemy capabilities, especially since it goes to the length of literally telegraphing every enemy move.

But in FTL you get 30 points of hull damage to play with before it's game over. In ITB you get 8 points of grid damage. And in both games, there will just eventually be cases where taking the least-bad option of the moment means that you have to take a hit somewhere, be it a true 50/50 random event in FTL that you just couldn't avoid or an especially bad opening turn on ITB that puts you at extremely poor positioning without the option of rewind.

An FTL encounter where you soak up 5 points of hull damage is pretty bad, but it's usually easy for me to shrug off for a lot of reasons. In general it's very easy to avoid damage altogether in most encounters if you know what you're doing and haven't dug yourself into a hole, and with most ships I rarely have to repair at stores. I usually play for score in that game now, which leads to some crazy decision making that is inadvisable but still feasible. (I literally finished a Crystal B run yesterday where--because the ship starts with no weapons--I'd board oxygen-less auto scouts, tear them down to 1 HP from the inside via system damage, then purposely soak up hull damage on my ship in the hopes of triggering the 10% chance on the Crystal Vengeance augmentation in order to actually destroy the enemy ship. The smart play is obviously to run from these early game encounters until you find a weapon, but I'd literally just spend a third of my lifebar or more to defeat a single enemy that I could easily run from in order to maximize score, and I can typically get away with it. On an especially good run, I can just farm enemy ships behind the red line in a nebula indefinitely.)

I never feel like I have those same luxuries in ITB. You never want to take grid damage in this game because your grid meter is so short. So you're always pigeon-holed into trying to play perfectly in every single encounter. This is compounded by the extra mission objectives in each encounter; you absolutely do not want to fail any of them, both for the individual objective rewards and for the extra post-island rewards that you only get if you run the table on every single objective on the island. This makes those cases where you're forced into something like "Defeat 7 enemies" with a low-damage squad extremely frustrating. I feel like I'm constantly pressured to play perfectly in this game against occasionally tough odds where I feel no similar pressure in FTL and can just shrug off bad encounters. Even though I've logged a "perfect game" in ITB but not in FTL (to my recollection), a big part of the reason why I felt compelled to do so in ITB in the first place is because the pressure to play perfectly is so much greater.

EDIT: I think the thing that really underscores my feelings on how much I'm pressured to play perfectly comes down to how much more willing I am to go for crazy runs in FTL. Like I've completed a No Oxygen run, a No Medbay run, a No Weapon run, a No Shield run, and a Semi-Pacifist run (take every surrender and non-violent option to end encounters), all on Hard mode, and I frequently play low-tier ships for variety's sake. In contrast, I rarely stray from Ice Mech + Mafan in ITB unless I really want to switch things up.

That's interesting. I spent most of the year following FTL trying to teach people how to play the game and minimize RNG effect, so I agree 200% that people blame randomness and "unfairness" when it's just lack of experience, preparation and forethought. This is taken to the extreme in ITB where there's almost always a way to avoid grid damage unless you've messed up early in the encounter. I can see how it would make it more frustrating if you're going for perfect scores, since one single hit messes with that, but you take unavoidable damage more often in FTL, it just doesn't affect your score. While on the other hand, dodging is so RNG-reliant that the same FTL encounter can end up very differently through no real fault of your own.

tl;dr We're saying the same, just assigning different "frustrating" values. FTL can be frustrating due to more reliance on RNG, but ITB can be frustrating because one single mistake is more costly.

Sixfortyfive · Jan 15, 2020

Weltall Zero said:
you take unavoidable damage more often in FTL

To an extent, yes, but it's still overstated.

For the vast majority of playthroughs, the first 50 scrap you get should be put into level 2 shields. That completely walls the majority of encounters in sectors 1-2 that don't have missile launchers (longer than that if not playing on Hard mode). And for the missile launchers, you set aside somewhere between 85 to 150 scrap for either a drone system w/ defense drone or cloaking, whichever is a better fit for your build. (You can always force drone systems to come packaged with a Defense I drone... unless you consider that to be cheating.) Take care of those two factors early in a run and you should be gold on defense, saving you money on repairs and letting you focus on upgrades elsewhere.

Of course this is easier said than done on lower-tier ships or Hard mode. Sometimes you'll really need to shore up offense (weapons, hacking, teleporter) earlier. Sometimes you just won't get good choices at stores. But that's why you have 30 HP to spend. It's not a big deal to soak up a fair bit of damage early on when repairs only cost 2 scrap per HP. On Hard mode you should be living in the yellow middle-third of your hull meter at almost all times anyway because there's always that chance of a random event that gives you free repairs.

And that's all very generalized stuff. There's a ton of ship-specific strategies to mitigate their individual weaknesses. I also feel like there's just way more depth in general in FTL's micro-management, from precise boarding strategies (manipulating the enemy AI to overcome encounters where you're outnumbered in hand-to-hand combat) to really esoteric stuff like forcing the enemy ships to route their weapon power in such a way that they turn off the most problematic weapons at your most opportune times.

Love Machine · Apr 7, 2020

Just started playing this. What a banger of a game! Thoroughly regretting not getting around to it sooner.

Everything is so tightly designed. I love how it's minimalist enough (in terms of visuals and scope of each mission) to not be overwhelming, but at the same time the gameplay is very deep. I find myself scratching my head for quite a while in order to find the most optimal turn!

Reminds me of Advance Wars in some ways. Really impressed with this and may end up liking it more than FTL.

Redcrayon · Apr 8, 2020

Love Machine said:
Just started playing this. What a banger of a game! Thoroughly regretting not getting around to it sooner.

Everything is so tightly designed. I love how it's minimalist enough (in terms of visuals and scope of each mission) to not be overwhelming, but at the same time the gameplay is very deep. I find myself scratching my head for quite a while in order to find the most optimal turn!

Reminds me of Advance Wars in some ways. Really impressed with this and may end up liking it more than FTL.

It's a really elegant game, encouraging you to accomplish more with less. Definitely one of my favourite turn-based games of recent years.

Love Machine · Apr 16, 2020

Finished it and now gunning for achievements to unlock the other squads. Started a game on hard and surprised at how well I'm doing. Feels like it's easier to exploit the AI's decisions and cause mischief when there are more enemies present/spawning.

Redcrayon said:
It's a really elegant game, encouraging you to accomplish more with less. Definitely one of my favourite turn-based games of recent years.

Elegant is a great word to describe it. I'm not usually big on turn-based stuff, but this is like crack. Probably the sci-fi/mech aesthetic.

Double · Apr 21, 2020

Subset Games still exists, new update to version 1.2:

Subset Games on Twitter

“Localization in 9 new languages! Linux Version! Touch Interface! Into the Breach has just been updated, read more here: https://t.co/4TXJSVltZy Thanks for playing everyone!”

twitter.com

Patch Notes: (from http://subsetgames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=35654)

This version should be available on most PC storefronts immediately. The Switch version is temporarily delayed but will hopefully be ready soon. Here's a quick breakdown of the changes.

Localization:

Into the Breach is now fully localized in 9 new languages! These are:

French, Spanish, German, Italian, Russian, Polish, Brazilian-Portuguese, Simplified Chinese, and Japanese.

Into the Breach has a shocking amount of text. It's been a long process to get it all localized and adapt the interface for new languages. We're excited to be welcoming new players from around the world to play. Big thank you to Riot Loc, Emilia, and 8-4 for their work in translating the game!

Linux Version:

There is now a fully native Linux version of Into the Breach! If you already own the game on any storefront that normally supports Linux (Steam, Humble, or GOG), you should soon have the Linux version available for download.

Touch Interface:

There is now a specifically designed touch interface integrated into the game. Anyone playing on PC touch-screen devices will be able to use it -- just tap the screen to swap over at any point.

Weapon Reputation Cost:

Prior to this patch, all Weapons in the Store cost 2 Reputation, with one randomly selected to be 'on sale' for 1 Reputation. From now on, all weapons will always cost 1 Reputation. We wanted to encourage more risk-free experimentation of weapons during a run, and felt this opened up that opportunity to players.

Engine Update:

This part of the update will hopefully be invisible. The tech that Into the Breach was built on was ancient, and in order to help guarantee support far into the future we spent some time modernizing the backend engine.

Mod Compatibility:

This update might break some mod functionality in the immediate future. But we've been in contact with some members from the modding community to help smooth the way for a quick fix to any potential problems. There will need to be an update to the Mod Manager in order to re-load any mods, which will hopefully be available soon.

Thank you to everyone who played and continues to play Into the Breach!

Might the part about the Engine Update hint towards an ITB: AE? ;)

Sixfortyfive · Apr 21, 2020

The change to weapon cost is actually huge. One of my biggest gripes with this game is that there's often precious little incentive to experiment; it's usually more cost effective to upgrade a squad's stock weapons than it is to buy new gear, as the squads are already designed to synergize well with their stock load-outs for the most part.

Weltall Zero · Apr 21, 2020

Sixfortyfive said:
The change to weapon cost is actually huge. One of my biggest gripes with this game is that there's often precious little incentive to experiment; it's usually more cost effective to upgrade a squad's stock weapons than it is to buy new gear, as the squads are already designed to synergize well with their stock load-outs for the most part.

Yeah, agreed. Although in my experience the biggest "counterincentive" to buying new weapons is that, unless it's on the first island or so, you often have spent many cores on your other weapons. Some mechs do benefit enormously from new weapons regardless of island simply on account of having pretty limited default ones, like Judo, Pulse or Hook.

Zissou · Apr 21, 2020

It's a cool change. I'd be interested to see some kind of daily challenge drafting mode- like you get 5 random mechs and pick 3 (and/or get random weapons and choose some subset of those weapons to begin the run with).

Double · Apr 21, 2020

Zissou said:
(and/or get random weapons and choose some subset of those weapons to begin the run with).

I see what you did there.

Zissou · Apr 21, 2020

Double said:
I see what you did there.

🙃

Love Machine · Apr 22, 2020

Even though I'm relatively new to ITB, this seems like a great change, especially for random squad runs.
Nice to see them still supporting this!

ty_hot · Jun 1, 2020

Why does my game look like this? It's the version from Epic Store and the same happens to FLT so I am assuming it is some problem with the engine?

I have an Intel GPU but at least twice I managed to open FTL without this weird color bug and they are supposed to work with my GPU as well.

Premium Ghoul · Jun 12, 2020

Finally!

Fitz · Jul 4, 2020

So unless I'm mistaken, the turn order seems wrong for NPC allies? I was just doing a mission with mine-bots, and they were both listed as action 2 & 3 (1 being enemy HP regen), with 4-6 being Enemy actions. But when it came to it the enemy took their actions first, ended up losing one of them.

Sixfortyfive · Jul 4, 2020

Fitz said:
So unless I'm mistaken, the turn order seems wrong for NPC allies? I was just doing a mission with mine-bots, and they were both listed as action 2 & 3 (1 being enemy HP regen), with 4-6 being Enemy actions. But when it came to it the enemy took their actions first, ended up losing one of them.

Mine bots always put down a mine and move before the enemies. If they don't do anything it's typically because they're unable to move at all that turn.

Fitz · Jul 5, 2020

Sixfortyfive said:
Mine bots always put down a mine and move before the enemies. If they don't do anything it's typically because they're unable to move at all that turn.

I'm not sure if I ran into a bug on that map then, I wish I'd recorded it now. I had two mine-bots, the first was locked down, but the second was free to move, but didn't move or drop a mine. After that the one that survived was taking its turns after the enemies.

TheLastYoshi · Apr 26, 2021

This has become one of my most-played games of all-time, also, one of the best soundtrack. Can't wait to see what this team is cooking up next.

Love Machine · Apr 26, 2021

Premium Ghoul said:
Finally!

Wow, congrats! Very nice work. Do you have a favourite squad after all that? (Or a least favourite?)

Premium Ghoul · Apr 26, 2021

Love Machine said:
Wow, congrats! Very nice work. Do you have a favourite squad after all that? (Or a least favourite?)

Thanks, it was a fun challenge to get all the medals and I'm still casually playing the game to this day lol.

My favourite squad is probably Flame Behemoths and least favourite would be Blitzkrieg.

The squad I love the most though is a custom squad consisting of the Flame Mech, Rocket Mech, and the Techno-Beetle.

Bombless · Apr 27, 2021

I still have stuff to unlock in this game, I should return to it. But it always ends up sucking ALL my time in the black hole of madness, calculations and frustration that it generates.

10/10, I still recommend it.

Double · May 3, 2021

So... is there ever gonna be a new game from these guys?

Sixfortyfive · May 3, 2021

Double said:
So... is there ever gonna be a new game from these guys?

Six years passed between their first two, so you'd best be patient I guess.

Weltall Zero · May 3, 2021

Sixfortyfive said:
Six years passed between their first two, so you'd best be patient I guess.

Only three years to go!

Deleted member 2317 · May 3, 2021

Any idea if this will ever received a physical Switch cart? Has anyone heard any rumors to this effect? I know this team isn't exactly a "physical games as core business model group" but a girl can dream!

FlashChopCoffee · Jun 18, 2021

Just picked this up, and holy crap this game is just the perfect timesink on the Switch Lite.
I managed to get to the final mission on my first normal difficulty run with the rift walkers, but I lost due to starting the fight with only 2 grid health left.
The best thing about it though: I wasn't even mad. I knew exactly why I lost, and I still had a ton of fun playing.

I unlocked Blitzkrieg, and I was amazed at how different the mission experience was compared to Rift Walkers. I had so much fun blocking Vek spawns with boulders, pulling enemies into hazards and chaining lightning through buildings.

Such a god damn neat little game.

Deleted member 2317 · Aug 18, 2021

Ugh. Wow.

At first I was a little less than enthusiastic about this game because I just simply didn't understand how to optimally engage- so I set myself a new goal (to beat it on Easy with each team I had available, selectively knocking out achievements for coins if I could along the way) and now I know what the fuck to do and it feels glorious and the game has become truly addicting. Now I too shall have a full roster, every achievement, every squad, etc etc.... Just a mind blowing game of risk, reward, and chance.

It's become the only thing I play on the Switch, and generally, the only game I play. 😂

Whatever Subset do next I'm in, that's like, two for two 10/10 titles on their hands? Jesus christ.

.exe · Aug 18, 2021

afternoon delight said:
Ugh. Wow.

At first I was a little less than enthusiastic about this game because I just simply didn't understand how to optimally engage- so I set myself a new goal (to beat it on Easy with each team I had available, selectively knocking out achievements for coins if I could along the way) and now I know what the fuck to do and it feels glorious and the game has become truly addicting. Now I too shall have a full roster, every achievement, every squad, etc etc.... Just a mind blowing game of risk, reward, and chance.

It's become the only thing I play on the Switch, and generally, the only game I play. 😂

Whatever Subset do next I'm in, that's like, two for two 10/10 titles on their hands? Jesus christ.

Well done! My first win was also around when things clicked for me. Such a great portable game, yeah. Very easy to pick up and play.

Into the Breach |OT| FTL: Fighting Tactical Leviathans

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