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Harlequin

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,614
Think about your example of a man wearing a gown. Imagine why that man would face discrimination. Not because he is a man, specifically, but because of homophobia.
And what is homophobia if not discrimination based on harmful gender stereotypes and expectations? The core of homophobia is and always has been the idiotic perception that homosexual men are behaving in an "unmanly" manner and undermining the basis of patriarchy by assuming the "female" role, thus homophobia is ultimately just another facet of sexism. So even if we were to accept your argument that the only reason a man wearing a gown would face discrimination is because people would assume him to be non-heterosexual (which, I'm pretty sure he would face discrimination even if people knew him to be straight), that homophobic discrimination would still be based in his being a man who's acting counter to traditional gender norms by being gay. One way or another, it's about him being a man.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
And what is homophobia if not discrimination based on harmful gender stereotypes and expectations? The core of homophobia is and always has been the idiotic perception that homosexual men are behaving in an "unmanly" manner and undermining the basis of patriarchy by assuming the "female" role, thus homophobia is ultimately just another facet of sexism. So even if we were to accept your argument that the only reason a man wearing a gown would face discrimination is because people would assume him to be non-heterosexual (which, I'm pretty sure he would face discrimination even if people knew him to be straight), that homophobic discrimination would still be based in his being a man who's acting counter to traditional gender norms by being gay. One way or another, it's about him being a man.

Homophobia is not exclusively directed against men though. Women also experience extreme forms of homophobia. I mean, it's like saying that bigotry against trans men is evidence of anti-male sexism, when the reality is that they face bigotry for being trans.
 

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
You had/have literal pedos in here and you criticize others for having different opinions that do not hurt anybody directly.
I like how much of a giveaway this is. The one I'm sure you mean wasn't even ever a member here. They were a member (and former mod) on a different website we all quit. A member who was banned, and someone we pretty much all hate.

Yet that single member is a certain groups favorite argument against us. It's a fucking loke.
 

Bass2448

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
565
Bigotry should never be tolerated. Against anyone. Bottom line. No if ands or buts.

However - raging, outcasting, "mobbing", etc. is not going to move our culture towards a non bigoted culture. Its just gonna draw lines and push people who are still slowly coming around on bigotry and learning to accept the idea of LGBTQ friendly environments into full on trump supporting racist assholes.

"Why should I care? They are shit people."

Then don't bitch when you keep seeing articles and posts like this of yet ANOTHER case of bigotry. Especially from the same assholes. People need to convert and open minds then the articles/examples of bigotry will go down. Not everyone can be saved obviously but I think even if you turn one racist into a proper human being then it's fucking so worth it.

Let's increase our numbers . Not theirs.
 

Deleted member 23212

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,225
And what is homophobia if not discrimination based on harmful gender stereotypes and expectations? The core of homophobia is and always has been the idiotic perception that homosexual men are behaving in an "unmanly" manner and undermining the basis of patriarchy by assuming the "female" role, thus homophobia is ultimately just another facet of sexism. So even if we were to accept your argument that the only reason a man wearing a gown would face discrimination is because people would assume him to be non-heterosexual (which, I'm pretty sure he would face discrimination even if people knew him to be straight), that homophobic discrimination would still be based in his being a man who's acting counter to traditional gender norms by being gay. One way or another, it's about him being a man.
Doesn't homophobia also have to do with institutions like the Catholic Church wanting to increase their numbers/population?
 

grunkleFungus

Banned
Aug 22, 2018
171
NC, US
It's not marginalized people's jobs to convert people who already call them mentally ill and mutilated, along with retarded. These people are unrepentant, and no benefit of the doubt should be given for that until they apologize.
 

Alexhex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,881
Canada
Bigotry should never be tolerated. Against anyone. Bottom line. No if ands or buts.

However - raging, outcasting, "mobbing", etc. is not going to move our culture towards a non bigoted culture. Its just gonna draw lines and push people who are still slowly coming around on bigotry and learning to accept the idea of LGBTQ friendly environments into full on trump supporting racist assholes.

"Why should I care? They are shit people."

Then don't bitch when you keep seeing articles and posts like this of yet ANOTHER case of bigotry. Especially from the same assholes. People need to convert and open minds then the articles/examples of bigotry will go down. Not everyone can be saved obviously but I think even if you turn one racist into a proper human being then it's fucking so worth it.

Let's increase our numbers . Not theirs.
How is this relevant to letting people know that some devs have trash views
 

Icemonk191

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,814
Bigotry should never be tolerated. Against anyone. Bottom line. No if ands or buts.

However - raging, outcasting, "mobbing", etc. is not going to move our culture towards a non bigoted culture. Its just gonna draw lines and push people who are still slowly coming around on bigotry and learning to accept the idea of LGBTQ friendly environments into full on trump supporting racist assholes.

"Why should I care? They are shit people."

Then don't bitch when you keep seeing articles and posts like this of yet ANOTHER case of bigotry. Especially from the same assholes. People need to convert and open minds then the articles/examples of bigotry will go down. Not everyone can be saved obviously but I think even if you turn one racist into a proper human being then it's fucking so worth it.

Let's increase our numbers . Not theirs.
Calling out transphobia=Mobbing huh? You seem more concerned that people are upset at bigotry than at the bigots themselves.
 

Harlequin

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,614
Homophobia is not exclusively directed against men though. Women also experience extreme forms of homophobia. I mean, it's like saying that bigotry against trans men is evidence of anti-male sexism, when the reality is that they face bigotry for being trans.
Historically speaking, homophobia has been predominantly directed at men (whereas homosexual women were usually just oppressed because they were women moreso than specifically for being homosexual). Of course, in modern times, we've seen more and more homophobia against women, as well. But in any case, no matter whom its directed at, homophobia is rooted in sexism. And when a man is the victim of homophobia, he is a victim of sexism. Just like men of any sexual orientation who're considered "too sensitive" or too small or weak or emotional are victims of sexism. Or men whose genitals are deemed "too small" by society or who pursue hobbies or professions that are seen as "unmanly", etc. Or, hell, I'd even throw in men who become victims of gang violence, considering how much that whole culture is steeped in toxic masculinity.
 

Bass2448

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
565
How is this relevant to letting people know that some devs have trash views

It's more in response to the sub topics that have spawned along the way. I'm sick of seeing this engine of hate and I want to see a world where everyone is accepted in my lifetime. Not 3-4 generations down the road.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
Bigotry should never be tolerated. Against anyone. Bottom line. No if ands or buts.

However - raging, outcasting, "mobbing", etc. is not going to move our culture towards a non bigoted culture. Its just gonna draw lines and push people who are still slowly coming around on bigotry and learning to accept the idea of LGBTQ friendly environments into full on trump supporting racist assholes.

"Why should I care? They are shit people."

Then don't bitch when you keep seeing articles and posts like this of yet ANOTHER case of bigotry. Especially from the same assholes. People need to convert and open minds then the articles/examples of bigotry will go down. Not everyone can be saved obviously but I think even if you turn one racist into a proper human being then it's fucking so worth it.

Let's increase our numbers . Not theirs.

What suggests to you that the Ion Fury devs are slowly coming around? It seems like they're a part of a radicalized element of politics and are going to get worse, regardless of how people react.

The notion that reactions to bigotry is why bigotry is so bad is an age-old myth about what fuels it.
 

Bass2448

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
565
Calling out transphobia=Mobbing huh? You seem more concerned that people are upset at bigotry than at the bigots themselves.

Relax, that's not the case at all. I just want peeps to realize there is another way we can handle this that truely fucks over bigoted assholes and that's reducing their numbers.
 

Siresly

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,580
Had no interest in this game, so no lost sale from me, but I'll file Voidpoint away under nope.
 

Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,890
I dont see why we should turn the other cheek and wait for someone to "convert" to being a decent person.
Its not hard to not be a hateful piece of shit. If they can't even do the bare minimum and have literally the most basic amount of decency why should we expect them to change?

I hate this shitty "You are just as bad as them!" attitude like being a bigoted piece of shit and calling someone out for being a bigoted piece of shit are somehow equal?

Just fuck off
 
Oct 25, 2017
19,165
Bigotry should never be tolerated. Against anyone. Bottom line. No if ands or buts.

However - raging, outcasting, "mobbing", etc. is not going to move our culture towards a non bigoted culture. Its just gonna draw lines and push people who are still slowly coming around on bigotry and learning to accept the idea of LGBTQ friendly environments into full on trump supporting racist assholes.

"Why should I care? They are shit people."

Then don't bitch when you keep seeing articles and posts like this of yet ANOTHER case of bigotry. Especially from the same assholes. People need to convert and open minds then the articles/examples of bigotry will go down. Not everyone can be saved obviously but I think even if you turn one racist into a proper human being then it's fucking so worth it.

Let's increase our numbers . Not theirs.
Takes like these are always the worst. I used to assume they came from a legitimate place but idk anymore.
What what hearts and minds are we trying to get in this case? The people in Discord who were in their own loop of transphobic bigoted running commentary, who, after being called out, instead of apologizing or offering any semblance of reticence whined about how they were being taken out of context and then provided the exact same context that was initially given, and then ran back to Discord to complain and offer autism as an excuse for bigotry?

Are we supposed to just endless protect the egos of grown adults who willfully and maliciously target vulnerable populations? And notice how the dialogue is always about massaging and protecting the egos of bigots, based on some naive hope of pulling them back from the brink, and never about the people that they harm.
 

grunkleFungus

Banned
Aug 22, 2018
171
NC, US
Historically speaking, homophobia has been predominantly directed at men (whereas homosexual women were usually just oppressed because they were women moreso than specifically for being homosexual). Of course, in modern times, we've seen more and more homophobia against women, as well. But in any case, no matter whom its directed at, homophobia is rooted in sexism. And when a man is the victim of homophobia, he is a victim of sexism. Just like men of any sexual orientation who're considered "too sensitive" or too small or weak or emotional are victims of sexism. Or men whose genitals are deemed "too small" by society or who pursue hobbies or professions that are seen as "unmanly", etc. Or, hell, I'd even throw in men who become victims of gang violence, considering how much that whole culture is steeped in toxic masculinity.

Homophobia against lesbians has been around a long time, why do you think it's just now a problem when it's always been there?
 

andymoogle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,310
Relax, that's not the case at all. I just want peeps to realize there is another way we can handle this that truely fucks over bigoted assholes and that's reducing their numbers.
Good luck with that. Most bigots will never change. And stop spreading this nonsense that people starting to accept LGBTQIA+ people will suddenly lose all empathy and become hateful people. You don't turn people into bigots by calling them out. They already were bigots to begin with.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,026
Do you think the current strategy is working?
Yeah? A lot of the time, the noise increases because the change is happening. Before you can stop hatred against a group of people, you need to acknowledge that the group of people exists. Before you can stop violence against them, you have to acknowledge that the violence is happening. And that's not even to mention the people who see the change and becoming noisy in order to revert it.

If you never hear any bad things happening, it's less likely because they're dealt with and more likely because they've been shoved under the rug.
 

Bass2448

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
565
Did you read that link?

The fact we don't fight back hard enough against the kind of hate Trump and his ilk have normalized over the last few years is the problem.

Ok then. How far do we go? Physical violence? Concentration camps for bigots?

And to clarify, I'm not being sarcastic about your opinion. I genuinely want to see where it goes. It might even change my view if it's presented well.
 

Fudgepuppy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,270
I thought about putting it on my wishlist. Don't want to anymore. There are enough good games out there for me to ignore this.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,954
Ok then. How far do we go? Physical violence? Concentration camps for bigots?

And to clarify, I'm not being sarcastic about your opinion. I genuinely want to see where it goes. It might even change my view if it's presented well.
What?

No, we stand and use our voices. We vote in the people who will support progress. We stop sitting on message boards and get involved in grassroots movements. Etc...

We need to work hard, lead by example, and stand up to every instance of hate and violence we see.
 

grunkleFungus

Banned
Aug 22, 2018
171
NC, US
Do you think the current strategy is working?

Think of it this way. It's more important that marginalized people feel safe to speak out than hold out for the unlikely day that a bigot tries to reform. I think they can be reformed and helped, and I get the jist of not jumping on people making honest mistakes, but these people are promoting ideas that lead to the abuse and hate of marginalized groups of people. An honest mistake is not knowing 'ree' is used to signify "kek autistic screeching", not repeatedly posting about how much you hate trans people and autistic people for speaking up,
 

Wumbo64

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
327
Based on what statistics we have, roughly 1 in 20 people are LGBT. Trans folk as a subsection are roughly 1 in 170. Keep in mind, those statistics are for the U.S.

I am not a statistics expert, but I don't believe extrapolating that to a global scale is far fetched. Also, a lot of trans folk in particular are understandably reluctant to participate in population studies, so I would again say it isn't a stretch to assume the reality is closer to 1 in 100.

These are non-trivial numbers, despite technically constituting a minority. In a world of several billion people, the respective population numbers for these minority groups total in the millions.

So it is baffling to me that people could be so dismissive and evil. I think there is a legitimate conversations to be had if you are concerned about how the medical system navigates trans issues, but this often a veil used by bigots to apply unnecessary and hurtful labels.

You can say and feel whatever you want, but not without consequences. When you sell a product or yourself to the public, you are sticking your neck out. When you fuck up, historically the best thing to do is just own it. These guys have proven they would rather double down on their ego than have some humility and admit what they did was terrible.

I am sure there are folk in the LGBT camp that were actually legitimately excited for a high-octane shooter featuring a badass woman too. To dismiss them or anyone with a more liberal mindset only acting with altruistic intentions is disheartening. People were ready to like their product and support them, but they knowingly keep these people at arms length.

So sad. I doubt we will ever get a legitimate apology now. I still want to play the game, but rewarding hatred with my money is something I am trying to cut down on.
 

Harlequin

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,614
Homophobia against lesbians has been around a long time, why do you think it's just now a problem when it's always been there?
Well, to be fair, there not being many records of it doesn't necessarily mean it didn't happen but I'm not aware of too much historical evidence for it (and, at least in Europe, most of the old laws forbidding it only applied to men, not women). Always happy to learn, though, so if you have any links, please do send them my way :). As far as I'm aware, lesbians in most societies were mostly oppressed in the sense that they didn't have much say in what happened to them, whom they got married off to, etc. which was also the case for straight women. They were often treated more as cattle than independent human beings. (Of course, there are some notable exceptions like ancient Egyptian society.) Two women engaging in a sexual relationship wouldn't have posed as much of a threat to the ironically fragile construct of patriarchy as two men because, well, they were still women. One of them being on top wasn't going to magically turn her into a man. (And they couldn't impregnate one another so the male line was safe.) A man being penetrated, though? That was considered a huge threat to the idea of men being strong and powerful and in charge. Can't have that. (Please picture me rolling my eyes profusely while writing all this.)
 

Bass2448

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
565
User Banned (1 Month): Concern trolling regarding bigotry over a series of posts in this thread
What?

No, we stand and use our voices. We vote in the people who will support progress. We stop sitting on message boards and get involved in grassroots movements. Etc...

We need to work hard, lead by example, and stand up to every instance of hate and violence we see.

This is where I'm conflicted myself. On one hand, this sounds nice and gives some positive benefits right now. On another, I just feel it corners the beasts and leads to the shit side raising violence. Id simply rather remove as many beasts as possible so they know they are done before raising a single hand.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,954
This is where I'm conflicted myself. On one hand, this sounds nice and gives some positive benefits right now. On another, I just feel it corners the beasts and leads to the shit side raising violence. Id simply rather remove as many beasts as possible so they know they are done before raising a single hand.
I don't know exactly what you're doing here, or even if you'r'e being genuine... you're advocating for more violence?
 

grunkleFungus

Banned
Aug 22, 2018
171
NC, US
Well, to be fair, there not being many records of it doesn't necessarily mean it didn't happen but I'm not aware of too much historical evidence for it (and, at least in Europe, most of the old laws forbidding it only applied to men, not women). Always happy to learn, though, so if you have any links, please do send them my way :). As far as I'm aware, lesbians in most societies were mostly oppressed in the sense that they didn't have much say in what happened to them, whom they got married off to, etc. which was also the case for straight women. They were often treated more as cattle than independent human beings. (Of course, there are some notable exceptions like ancient Egyptian society.) Two women engaging in a sexual relationship wouldn't have posed as much of a threat to the ironically fragile construct of patriarchy as two men because, well, they were still women. One of them being on top wasn't going to magically turn her into a man. (And they couldn't impregnate one another so the male line was safe.) A man being penetrated, though? That was considered a huge threat to the idea of men being strong and powerful and in charge. Can't have that. (Please picture me rolling my eyes profusely while writing all this.)

I'd recommend reading Slippers of Gold, Boots of Leather or Stone Butch Blues for examples of older forms of lesbophobia. The homophobia lesbians face is different, more based on wanting ownership of women and regulating how lesbians can present themselves. Conversion "therapy" was also targeted at girls who weren't feminine. Unfortunately there's not much historical record because generally, people didn't give a shit what women were doing when writing history. They did however give a shit about women who wouldn't marry or go out with them.
 

Bass2448

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
565
I don't know exactly what you're doing here, or even if you'r'e being genuine... you're advocating for more violence?

Well I should have clarified that when I said "removing beasts" I mean trying to teach some bigots the errors of their thinking and that every deserves to be treated equally. Therefore removing possible people that would be prone to initiating violence when our culture does finally shift hard in full acceptance.

Some good points were made against that and I recognize this. However I'm just thinking many many years in the future and how each course of action will end up in 100 years or so.
 

Ashlette

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,254
Bigotry should never be tolerated. Against anyone. Bottom line. No if ands or buts.

However - raging, outcasting, "mobbing", etc. is not going to move our culture towards a non bigoted culture. Its just gonna draw lines and push people who are still slowly coming around on bigotry and learning to accept the idea of LGBTQ friendly environments into full on trump supporting racist assholes.

"Why should I care? They are shit people."

Then don't bitch when you keep seeing articles and posts like this of yet ANOTHER case of bigotry. Especially from the same assholes. People need to convert and open minds then the articles/examples of bigotry will go down. Not everyone can be saved obviously but I think even if you turn one racist into a proper human being then it's fucking so worth it.

Let's increase our numbers . Not theirs.
If you've ever seen a debate with people like the devs then you'd know it's a lost cause.

They engage you to recruit other people to their circle, not to change. If they notice that you have the upper hand in a debate, they will simply vanish and find someone else who is less knowledgeable than you.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,148
Bigotry should never be tolerated. Against anyone. Bottom line. No if ands or buts.

However - raging, outcasting, "mobbing", etc. is not going to move our culture towards a non bigoted culture. Its just gonna draw lines and push people who are still slowly coming around on bigotry and learning to accept the idea of LGBTQ friendly environments into full on trump supporting racist assholes.

"Why should I care? They are shit people."

Then don't bitch when you keep seeing articles and posts like this of yet ANOTHER case of bigotry. Especially from the same assholes. People need to convert and open minds then the articles/examples of bigotry will go down. Not everyone can be saved obviously but I think even if you turn one racist into a proper human being then it's fucking so worth it.[/

Let's increase our numbers . Not theirs.
The onus isn't on me to wait for people to accept, believe or acknowledge my existence.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,954
Well I should have clarified that when I said "removing beasts" I mean trying to teach some bigots the errors of their thinking and that every deserves to be treated equally. Therefore removing possible people that would be prone to initiating violence when our culture does finally shift hard in full acceptance.

Some good points were made against that and I recognize this. However I'm just thinking many many years in the future and how each course of action will end up in 100 years or so.
You cannot debate or teach these people, they are fully convinced our anger at seeing marginalized people mistreated is unreasonable and a mob-mentality, or they know very well it isn't and are using that stance to paint us a certain way to convince people in the centre that we're the problem.

The only way is to fight it, every chance we can, in the ways I mentioned above.
 
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