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Ion Fury devs show signs of transphobia among other issues. [Update: Voidpoint apologizes in statement, see threadmarks]

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Oct 27, 2017
987
"Signs of transphobia" is a fucking understatement. The shit just kept getting worse and worse with every page.

Also not surprised to see another thread about transphobia attracting a swath of idiots and "but why can't you people just be nice to the bigots?" handwringers.
 

Radeo

Banned
Apr 26, 2019
1,305
For certain the stuff that has been said by some of the devs has been truly awful and condemnable. But the amount of "eat shit and die" style posts in this thread is kind of worrisome for a place that about discussing games. People can keep yelling at each other that being offensive about offensive stuff is okay but it certainly makes people with different opinions listening to you way less likely.
Alright calm down with the B O T H S I D E S Boogie

It's not so much the separating the author from the art. It's more about the "stupid outrage bullshit" quote that stuck out to me. As far as separating artist from art, we all played Bloodborne right? I think a lot of people do that, quite often - whether we like it or not.
It's really stretching it to say enjoying things with Lovecraft influences is an endorsement of racism

"Outrage Culture" as a term is really fucking dumb though
 

Melchiah

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,960
Helsinki, Finland


Such an ignorant statement. The other people ARE often the reason for unhappiness when it comes to trans people. Of course people like him can't imagine how it would feel like to be forced to live a daily life according to others' standards, relatives, friends and colleagues included, and having them dictate what he can be and wear. I bet he hasn't ever been threatened with violence just for being what he is, when he's been out in public.
 

ShadowOwl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
282
User Warned: Bad faith argument, False equivalence
Alright calm down with the B O T H S I D E S Boogie
"Both sides boogie"? Don't be ridiculous, this thread has quickly evolved into a dog pile instead of properly discussing the issue at hand. If you want to keep it that way you can go to Twitter; we don't need a forum for that. This thread pretty much hits the nail regarding this matter: https://www.resetera.com/threads/it-feels-like-its-getting-harder-to-discuss-thing-calmly-in-the-gaming-community.135450/
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,489
The Ocean
"Both sides boogie"? Don't be ridiculous, this thread has quickly evolved into a dog pile instead of properly discussing the issue at hand. If you want to keep it that way you can go to Twitter; we don't need a forum for that. This thread pretty much hits the nail regarding this matter: https://www.resetera.com/threads/it-feels-like-its-getting-harder-to-discuss-thing-calmly-in-the-gaming-community.135450/
Discussing the issue calmly implies we should give considered thought beyond “fuck you”. These people have shit their load on discord, they’re “debate me” archetypes so there’s no value in your “please control your feelings” attempts at tone policing.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,468
"Both sides boogie"? Don't be ridiculous, this thread has quickly evolved into a dog pile instead of properly discussing the issue at hand. If you want to keep it that way you can go to Twitter; we don't need a forum for that. This thread pretty much hits the nail regarding this matter: https://www.resetera.com/threads/it-feels-like-its-getting-harder-to-discuss-thing-calmly-in-the-gaming-community.135450/
Pls be decent to people who can’t tolerate your very existence. How diplomatic of you.

It’s a dogpile because people around here find that shit abhorrent.
 

Kyuuji

Member
Nov 8, 2017
8,524
"Both sides boogie"? Don't be ridiculous, this thread has quickly evolved into a dog pile instead of properly discussing the issue at hand. If you want to keep it that way you can go to Twitter; we don't need a forum for that. This thread pretty much hits the nail regarding this matter: https://www.resetera.com/threads/it-feels-like-its-getting-harder-to-discuss-thing-calmly-in-the-gaming-community.135450/
Your entire involvement in the thread has been a critical meta-commentary about how the people in it are speaking. What points relevant to the topic did you want to discuss?
 

Arkanim94

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,378
"why you all aren't nice to ignorant transphobes? This is why those reactionary chuds don't like reeeeeeeeesetera"

Thank god for that.
 

Jktpnymonorel

Banned
Jan 19, 2018
490
User Banned (Permanent): Inflammatory False Equivalence Surrounding Transphobia; Prior Ban for Inflammatory Community Attack and Downplaying Hate Speech
For certain the stuff that has been said by some of the devs has been truly awful and condemnable. But the amount of "eat shit and die" style posts in this thread is kind of worrisome for a place that about discussing games. People can keep yelling at each other that being offensive about offensive stuff is okay but it certainly makes people with different opinions listening to you way less likely.
I thought we learned after the whole Etika situation
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,962
"Both sides boogie"? Don't be ridiculous, this thread has quickly evolved into a dog pile instead of properly discussing the issue at hand. If you want to keep it that way you can go to Twitter; we don't need a forum for that. This thread pretty much hits the nail regarding this matter: https://www.resetera.com/threads/it-feels-like-its-getting-harder-to-discuss-thing-calmly-in-the-gaming-community.135450/
I want to approach this completely level headed. There isn't a hint of anger here, this is a genuine inquiry. How would you propose we discuss this issue outside of flat out condemning what was said? What course of action do you think would be more responsible?

I honestly can't see what there is to discuss...
 

Radeo

Banned
Apr 26, 2019
1,305
"Both sides boogie"? Don't be ridiculous, this thread has quickly evolved into a dog pile instead of properly discussing the issue at hand. If you want to keep it that way you can go to Twitter; we don't need a forum for that. This thread pretty much hits the nail regarding this matter: https://www.resetera.com/threads/it-feels-like-its-getting-harder-to-discuss-thing-calmly-in-the-gaming-community.135450/
No, a dog pile would be us telling people to go to Twitter/Steam/Discord and harass them.

And there's really not much to discuss, they're taking a load of right wing talking points and running with it. You can go right ahead and try and calmly dissuade people who don't see you as human lmao
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,546
Finland
Been waiting for some sensible statement, I guess it's silly to hold out any hope like that.
I'm honestly surprised by this. https://www.polygon.com/2016/5/6/11612912/lawbreakers-gender-neutral-bathrooms-boss-key-cliff-bleszinski
Though he does say in his tweet, that he can separate the art from the artist. In that sense it does seem like he thinks the discussion by devs to be questionable. But right after, he again tweets something that seems to make light of the situation. Come on Cliff, be better.
 

Claven

Game Localization
Verified
Aug 22, 2018
3,294
Been waiting for some sensible statement, I guess it's silly to hold out any hope like that.
I'm honestly surprised by this. https://www.polygon.com/2016/5/6/11612912/lawbreakers-gender-neutral-bathrooms-boss-key-cliff-bleszinski
Though he does say in his tweet, that he can separate the art from the artist. In that sense it does seem like he thinks the discussion by devs to be questionable. But right after, he again tweets something that seems to make light of the situation. Come on Cliff, be better.
CliffyB was always garbage, that's not news.
 

Claven

Game Localization
Verified
Aug 22, 2018
3,294
But those links don't make it seem like he was, rather the opposite. Supporting trans folk and calling out the racism, homophobia and misogyny in gaming. So his recent attitude definitely is news to me and it's disappointing.
While he does make a surprising amount of sense in the Kotaku article, I'm fairly convinced that crying unironically about "stupid outrage culture" is much closer to how he really feels.
 

i-Lo

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
12,354
Not America
Having recently watched DF's tech breakdown of the game, I hope Dark1x is now in the know about the devs. I do feel bad for DF tbh.
 
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CUD

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
145
I love how he asks for more information and then immediately proceeds with "I'll ignore that and separate the art from the artist".

Like, what was even the point of the inquiry.
Is there a problem with separating the art from the artist?

Some people just want to be informed, doesn't mean they have to speak out against them. This is especially true for someone as well known as Cliff, he doesn't want to get caught up in some controversy when he just wanted to praise the game itself in the first place.
 

JayCeeJim

Member
Jan 3, 2019
135
While I'm all in on discussing and scrutinizing the content of the actual games, I'm growing more and more tired of scrutinizing the beliefs or conduct or political stances of the people who makes or publishes the games. Specially when they are anonymous nobodies like in this case (it would be different if it was some celebrity that was generally followed as a role model by many people or something).

I'm sure there's plenty of awful people among those that produce many of the things I buy and consume: my groceries, my furniture, my clothing and of course my videogames.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't take action. I do combat them, all at once, where it matters: in real politics. Participating in debates on general news sites or even twitter, going to demonstrations that matter, bringing up the important issues in conversations with friends and colleagues, behaving well as a good citizen, and, of course, voting the right parties in the successive elections.

But don't see the point of giving them the attention here, because they happen to work making videogames.
 

Claven

Game Localization
Verified
Aug 22, 2018
3,294
Is there a problem with separating the art from the artist?

Some people just want to be informed, doesn't mean they have to speak out against them. This is especially true for someone as well known as Cliff, he doesn't want to get caught up in some controversy when he just wanted to praise the game itself in the first place.
"controversy"
thinkingfaceemoji.gif
 

Kyuuji

Member
Nov 8, 2017
8,524
While I'm all in on discussing and scrutinizing the content of the actual games, I'm growing more and more tired of scrutinizing the beliefs or conduct or political stances of the people who makes or publishes the games. Specially when they are anonymous nobodies like in this case (it would be different if it was some celebrity that was generally followed as a role model by many people or something).

I'm sure there's plenty of awful people among those that produce many of the things I buy and consume: my groceries, my furniture, my clothing and of course my videogames.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't take action. I do combat them, all at once, where it matters: in real politics. Participating in debates on general news sites or even twitter, going to demonstrations that matter, bringing up the important issues in conversations with friends and colleagues, behaving well as a good citizen, and, of course, voting the right parties in the successive elections.

But don't see the point of giving them the attention here, because they happen to work making videogames.
Then ignore the thread and move on.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,546
Finland
While I'm all in on discussing and scrutinizing the content of the actual games, I'm growing more and more tired of scrutinizing the beliefs or conduct or political stances of the people who makes or publishes the games. Specially when they are anonymous nobodies like in this case (it would be different if it was some celebrity that was generally followed as a role model by many people or something).

I'm sure there's plenty of awful people among those that produce many of the things I buy and consume: my groceries, my furniture, my clothing and of course my videogames.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't take action. I do combat them, all at once, where it matters: in real politics. Participating in debates on general news sites or even twitter, going to demonstrations that matter, bringing up the important issues in conversations with friends and colleagues, behaving well as a good citizen, and, of course, voting the right parties in the successive elections.

But don't see the point of giving them the attention here, because they happen to work making videogames.
I think it's very game related because the discussion happened in the official Discord channel.
 

SparkleMotion

Member
Nov 3, 2017
2,274


Such an ignorant statement. The other people ARE often the reason for unhappiness when it comes to trans people. Of course people like him can't imagine how it would feel like to be forced to live a daily life according to others' standards, relatives, friends and colleagues included, and having them dictate what he can be and wear. I bet he hasn't ever been threatened with violence just for being what he is, when he's been out in public.
That statement is the definition of white privilege.
 
Aug 22, 2018
124
NC, US
How many times do people have to hear that marginalized people don't want to debate their humanity with assholes? Quit acting like we're all nuts for being pissed just because we aren't "nice". This isn't a debate anymore.
 

trashtabby

Member
Oct 25, 2017
995
While I'm all in on discussing and scrutinizing the content of the actual games, I'm growing more and more tired of scrutinizing the beliefs or conduct or political stances of the people who makes or publishes the games. Specially when they are anonymous nobodies like in this case (it would be different if it was some celebrity that was generally followed as a role model by many people or something).

I'm sure there's plenty of awful people among those that produce many of the things I buy and consume: my groceries, my furniture, my clothing and of course my videogames.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't take action. I do combat them, all at once, where it matters: in real politics. Participating in debates on general news sites or even twitter, going to demonstrations that matter, bringing up the important issues in conversations with friends and colleagues, behaving well as a good citizen, and, of course, voting the right parties in the successive elections.

But don't see the point of giving them the attention here, because they happen to work making videogames.
Maybe stop considering transphobia as something that's nothing more than a "belief or conduct or political stance". It's bigotry. It's not worth debating if what they said is wrong.
 

Red Arremer

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,754
While I'm all in on discussing and scrutinizing the content of the actual games, I'm growing more and more tired of scrutinizing the beliefs or conduct or political stances of the people who makes or publishes the games. Specially when they are anonymous nobodies like in this case (it would be different if it was some celebrity that was generally followed as a role model by many people or something).

I'm sure there's plenty of awful people among those that produce many of the things I buy and consume: my groceries, my furniture, my clothing and of course my videogames.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't take action. I do combat them, all at once, where it matters: in real politics. Participating in debates on general news sites or even twitter, going to demonstrations that matter, bringing up the important issues in conversations with friends and colleagues, behaving well as a good citizen, and, of course, voting the right parties in the successive elections.

But don't see the point of giving them the attention here, because they happen to work making videogames.
The people behind your groceries, furniture, clothing and videogames as a rule of thumb do not use their platform to broadcast fascist talking points, though.

That's the problem here. If someone is a dipshit but keeps it to themselves, then that's whatever. But when they go on Twitter or Discord and start spreading propaganda, especially if they have a following, that's when things start becoming an issue. When people who have a platform - even if it may be small - are using it to instigate hate.

The radicalization of younger people, including and especially those that take their guns and start shooting up mosques or wal-marts, happens through the means of people using their platform to spread hate. Not just the fascist talking heads like your Shapiros or Crowders, but also the game devs in that Discord server.

Also, the existence and validity of trans people is not a "political stance", GTFO with that shite.
 

Mist

I know what you're gonna say. I changed my avatar.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
2,686
Official Staff Communication
Guys, please do not post or signal boost fake Twitter troll accounts. If you see that kind of thing, report it to Twitter. Thanks.
 

CUD

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
145
The people behind your groceries, furniture, clothing and videogames as a rule of thumb do not use their platform to broadcast fascist talking points, though.

That's the problem here. If someone is a dipshit but keeps it to themselves, then that's whatever. But when they go on Twitter or Discord and start spreading propaganda, especially if they have a following, that's when things start becoming an issue. When people who have a platform - even if it may be small - are using it to instigate hate.

The radicalization of younger people, including and especially those that take their guns and start shooting up mosques or wal-marts, happens through the means of people using their platform to spread hate. Not just the fascist talking heads like your Shapiros or Crowders, but also the game devs in that Discord server.

Also, the existence and validity of trans people is not a "political stance", GTFO with that shite.
Don't you feel this is a bit extreme?
The views of the devs weren't violent or anything of the sort. Seems like you're taking a big leap there to group them all in with murderers.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,717
Don't you feel this is a bit extreme?
The views of the devs weren't violent or anything of the sort. Seems like you're taking a big leap there to group them all in with murderers.
Bigotry is hate, and hate leads to violence. Yes, the leap is big to group them with murderers, but we all need to stem the spread of hateful views like transphobia, lest more violence and crime occurs in society.

Also, the existence and validity of trans people is not a "political stance", GTFO with that shite.
I mean, it is, but only to people who whine about “identity politics”.
 
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JayCeeJim

Member
Jan 3, 2019
135
The people behind your groceries, furniture, clothing and videogames as a rule of thumb do not use their platform to broadcast fascist talking points, though.

That's the problem here. If someone is a dipshit but keeps it to themselves, then that's whatever. But when they go on Twitter or Discord and start spreading propaganda, especially if they have a following, that's when things start becoming an issue. When people who have a platform - even if it may be small - are using it to instigate hate.

The radicalization of younger people, including and especially those that take their guns and start shooting up mosques or wal-marts, happens through the means of people using their platform to spread hate. Not just the fascist talking heads like your Shapiros or Crowders, but also the game devs in that Discord server.

Also, the existence and validity of trans people is not a "political stance", GTFO with that shite.
Well, it's quite likely that the people who make my groceries and furniture have a Twitter account. And if they are awful, I'm sure they will write awful things on their Twitter too.

I concede you the Discord thing, though. Actually, I recognize I'm a bit ignorant of that platform. Is it a central part of the experience of the game? What percentage of the players of the game will enter and read things there? Is it really relevant?

The conversation I read on this case seemed to me more a case of bigot people talking casually and, thus, showing their true awful selves, rather than a planned propaganda campaign. Of course I would think it would deserve more attention if it was the latter.

And please, don't interpret that I'm downplaying the importance of trans rights. When I used "political stance", I was broadening my argument to many other things where the same phenomenon of focusing on the anonymous producers happen. I also used "belief" and "conduct" in the same sentence, to be even more generic. I generally like to be as cold and aseptic as possible when reasoning (for the sake or science or someting :-)), and also English isn't my first (nor second!) language.
 

CUD

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
145
User Banned (Permanent): Dismissing bigotry, previously banned for defense of harassment campaigns. Account in junior phase.
Bigotry is hate, and hate leads to violence. Yes, the leap is big to group them with murderers, but we all need to stem the spread of hateful views like transphobia, lest more transphobic violence and crime occurs in society.
But by labelling any disagreement to be hate you are preventing discussion. That kind of behaviour just has the opposite effect to what you seem to want as both sides just grow stronger in their own beliefs convinced the other has nothing of value to offer.

I think it's even too far to label the statements that were made to be transphobic.
 

Kyuuji

Member
Nov 8, 2017
8,524
If you’re not speaking up when the person going in on a trans person with you suggests it’s better to beat sense into kids then I honestly don’t see much distinction or need for tiptoeing. They held no concern for the tone of the conversation while being the ones to espouse transphobic nonsense. So spare us the “be kind” drivel.

But by labelling any disagreement to be hate you are preventing discussion. That kind of behaviour just has the opposite effect to what you seem to want as both sides just grow stronger in their own beliefs convinced the other has nothing of value to offer.
They’re not, they’re labelling transphobia as hate.
I think it's even too far to label the statements that were made to be transphobic.
Really?
 

Red Arremer

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,754
Don't you feel this is a bit extreme?
The views of the devs weren't violent or anything of the sort. Seems like you're taking a big leap there to group them all in with murderers.
Transphobia, and spreading transphobic beliefs, leads to murder of trans people.
They may not have wrapped their hands around a trans person's throat themselves, but they are instigating the demonization of trans people, and as such, furthering the cause of violence against them.

Well, it's quite likely that the people who make my groceries and furniture have a Twitter account. And if they are awful, I'm sure they will write awful things on their Twitter too.

I concede you the Discord thing, though. Actually, I recognize I'm a bit ignorant of that platform. Is it a central part of the experience of the game? What percentage of the players of the game will enter and read things there? Is it really relevant?

The conversation I read on this case seemed to me more a case of bigot people talking casually and, thus, showing their true awful selves, rather than a planned propaganda campaign. Of course I would think it would deserve more attention if it was the latter.

And please, don't interpret that I'm downplaying the importance of trans rights. When I used "political stance", I was broadening my argument to many other things where the same phenomenon of focusing on the anonymous producers happen. I also used "belief" and "conduct" in the same sentence, to be even more generic. I generally like to be as cold and aseptic as possible when reasoning (for the sake or science or someting :-)), and also English isn't my first (nor second!) language.
Discord is a chat client which is very popular with gaming communities. A lot of studios use Discord in a similar fashion to forums, where the devs post news about the game, and generally communicate with their fans.

And they don't have to be specifically have the intent to spread propaganda to be spreading it. If you spread propaganda you spread propaganda, regardless of whether your intent is to misinform or not. They are spreading misinformation that is harmful to trans people, so whether it is their intent to maliciously spread misinformation or are doing it "just" because they believe trans people are disgusting or mentally ill is irrelevant.
 

Arkanim94

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,378
But by labelling any disagreement to be hate you are preventing discussion. That kind of behaviour just has the opposite effect to what you seem to want as both sides just grow stronger in their own beliefs convinced the other has nothing of value to offer.

I think it's even too far to label the statements that were made to be transphobic.
Dude, this isn't a "both side have a point" situation, one side is transphobic and one side isn't, it's not too difficult to get.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,092
That doesn't mean we shouldn't take action. I do combat them, all at once, where it matters: in real politics. Participating in debates on general news sites or even twitter, going to demonstrations that matter, bringing up the important issues in conversations with friends and colleagues, behaving well as a good citizen, and, of course, voting the right parties in the successive elections.
Bigotry matters everywhere and should be combated wherever it shows up. Being politically active is good, but all the votes in the world aren't going to do anything about bigotry in the gaming community. "Real politics" does nothing to address transphobia there any more than it addressed GamerGate - the change has to come from the community.
 

Igor

Member
Oct 31, 2017
360
Oooof. Ion Fury looked amazing but the game is just cancelled for me. Was just waiting for this knowing that 3D realms is affiliated with that game actually.
Pity.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,853
UK

Jiminy

Avenger
Mar 29, 2018
3,577
But that isn't what sexism actually means or is. I mean, you can redefine things to mean other things so your position makes sense for literally anything.

By the definition you quote there cannot be any sexism against people who do not conform to standard genders, which makes it a non-inclusive and gender normative definition designed to empower a certain group (females) at the expense of all others.

Sexism is discrimination based on sex - which can (as per the laws of reality) happen to any sex. It is not a card that one particular sex gets to hold onto and deny to any of the others while lording it over them.

As someone who is gender non conforming a lot of the feminism stuff is quite offensive and frankly narrow minded.
The key words you missed there were "within feminism". You're absolutely right sexism is broader and can be done to anyone by anyone, but that poster was talking about the angle which feminism is coming at (which is focused squarely on women-oriented oppression).

Yeah sure feminism is the real sexism....
Ignored.
That isn't AT ALL what that poster was saying, even if they did completely misread your post. It barely feels like you're arguing in good faith here. Your response hardly seems to match what that person said.
 
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