Ion Fury devs show signs of transphobia among other issues. [Update: Voidpoint apologizes in statement, see threadmarks]

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trashtabby

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Oct 25, 2017
1,606
The fact most gaming outlets haven’t really reported any of this in the middle of August when nothing else is really going on is the weirdest part of this whole mess.
Pretty sure it has more to do with that it's the weekend.

Also there actually is a bunch of stuff going on right now. Plenty of writers are busy writing reviews for the games releasing later this month. And plenty will be busy covering game announcements from Gamescom tomorrow. So I could still see this not getting the attention it should with it being a busy news week.
 
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Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,210
I feel bad for supporting this game during early access and touting it as much in my circle.
It's shitty though because the game is legit great. One of those situations where the devs should just concede rather than dig an even deeper hole.
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,507
Well, it's quite likely that the people who make my groceries and furniture have a Twitter account. And if they are awful, I'm sure they will write awful things on their Twitter too.

I concede you the Discord thing, though. Actually, I recognize I'm a bit ignorant of that platform. Is it a central part of the experience of the game? What percentage of the players of the game will enter and read things there? Is it really relevant?

The conversation I read on this case seemed to me more a case of bigot people talking casually and, thus, showing their true awful selves, rather than a planned propaganda campaign. Of course I would think it would deserve more attention if it was the latter.

And please, don't interpret that I'm downplaying the importance of trans rights. When I used "political stance", I was broadening my argument to many other things where the same phenomenon of focusing on the anonymous producers happen. I also used "belief" and "conduct" in the same sentence, to be even more generic. I generally like to be as cold and aseptic as possible when reasoning (for the sake or science or someting :-)), and also English isn't my first (nor second!) language.
Here's the thing your first post in this thread was talking about how you're tired of the discussion about things like "this". You can't pretend you're not downplaying the significance of what we're discussing when your entrance into the conversation was basically complaining that we are discussing it. Also trying to be as cold as possible when discussing active bigotry towards towards transgender individuals is not like something to be proud of in the context of a discussion on a video game forum
 

fontguy

Avenger
Oct 8, 2018
3,442
While I'm all in on discussing and scrutinizing the content of the actual games, I'm growing more and more tired of scrutinizing the beliefs or conduct or political stances of the people who makes or publishes the games. Specially when they are anonymous nobodies like in this case (it would be different if it was some celebrity that was generally followed as a role model by many people or something).

I'm sure there's plenty of awful people among those that produce many of the things I buy and consume: my groceries, my furniture, my clothing and of course my videogames.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't take action. I do combat them, all at once, where it matters: in real politics. Participating in debates on general news sites or even twitter, going to demonstrations that matter, bringing up the important issues in conversations with friends and colleagues, behaving well as a good citizen, and, of course, voting the right parties in the successive elections.

But don't see the point of giving them the attention here, because they happen to work making videogames.
Well some people’s “beliefs,” “conduct,” and “political stances” perpetuate shit like this:


https://www.transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/USTS-Full-Report-FINAL.PDF

Of the survey’s 27,715 respondents:
  • Almost 1 in 10 were physically attacked in the preceding year
  • 15% were unemployed
  • Almost one third were living in poverty
  • Just 16% owned a home (vs. 63% of the general population)
  • 40% attempted suicide
  • 7% attempted suicide in just the preceding year
  • One third were treated negatively by a health care provider for being transgender (e.g. verbal harassment and refusal of treatment)
  • Almost one third were homeless at some point in their lives
  • Almost half of all respondents were victims of sexual assault
When transphobia presents itself, we have a moral obligation to call it out, anywhere and everywhere. So fuck your “this is a gaming forum, take it somewhere else” bullshit.
 

EdibleKnife

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,074
I concede you the Discord thing, though. Actually, I recognize I'm a bit ignorant of that platform. Is it a central part of the experience of the game? What percentage of the players of the game will enter and read things there? Is it really relevant?
The devs wouldn’t have a Discord if it wasn’t relevant. They wouldn’t engage with their community at all if they weren’t interested in building a community. When you do that, you are inviting a diverse and varied range of people to interact with the dev team including people who are LGBTQ+ or are allies to LGBTQ+ people.
 

Deleted member 56909

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underwater
Wait why are people calling transphobic viewpoints political. People being dicks to folks like me ain't political it could be anyone your liberal neighbor your conservative grandma or your centrist brother. When misinformation spreads about trans people it's often used for convenience by people who want to solidify their views. In many cases being transgender disrupts the status quo of daily life and these people will just dig into the trenches even when presented by facts. It's why we have terfs and other hateful people still around because they just can't comprehend that I am a normal person living a fairly normal life with my two cats and occasionally sipping tea at my favorite cafe. Now I'm speaking for myself here these actions of these devs is hurtful and is problematic and not only were they transphobic but they also were also using misinformation about other topics unrelated to trans people like the anti vax movement. This kind of information is gross and these people need help pulling them out of this by not shifting the blame to politics today. Sure good legislation can help curb some of these issues. But awareness is so much more helpful in the grand scheme of things. I don't think I've ever replied to a thread so much as this one and it's surprising to me since I usually just lurk. That said don't be a dick or dismiss what actual people who have to put up with it in their daily lives because of this misinformation.
 

Boddy

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Oct 25, 2017
2,160
That stupid claim that trans commit suicide more often after surgery only exists because Transphobes can't read. It's simply not what the study says.
Quite the opposite, it recommends the physical transition, just that it isn't enough.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,660
That stupid claim that trans commit suicide more often after surgery only exists because Transphobes can't read. It's simply not what the study says.
Quite the opposite, it recommends the physical transition, just that it isn't enough.
They typically stop at the words "trans people" and "suicide" and form the rest of the narrative from there.
 

EdibleKnife

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,074
Wait why are people calling transphobic viewpoints political. People being dicks to folks like me ain't political it could be anyone your liberal neighbor your conservative grandma or your centrist brother. When misinformation spreads about trans people it's often used for convenience by people who want to solidify their views. In many cases being transgender disrupts the status quo of daily life and these people will just dig into the trenches even when presented by facts. It's why we have terfs and other hateful people still around because they just can't comprehend that I am a normal person living a fairly normal life with my two cats and occasionally sipping tea at my favorite cafe. Now I'm speaking for myself here these actions of these devs is hurtful and is problematic and not only were they transphobic but they also were also using misinformation about other topics unrelated to trans people like the anti vax movement. This kind of information is gross and these people need help pulling them out of this by not shifting the blame to politics today. Sure good legislation can help curb some of these issues. But awareness is so much more helpful in the grand scheme of things. I don't think I've ever replied to a thread so much as this one and it's surprising to me since I usually just lurk. That said don't be a dick or dismiss what actual people who have to put up with it in their daily lives because of this misinformation.
Thanks for this! So many people seem invested in being oblivious to the idea that beliefs lead to action. Disenfranchised people wouldn’t get angry at rhetoric like this if we didn’t fundamentally know that it’s shit like that that perpetuates bigoted oppression and violence. Violent bigots act out violence that is informed by their world view. Rapists, sexual abusers, anti-choice fanatics have a mindset informed by rhetoric about women being inferior/women not being entitled to bodily autonomy. Klan members have a mindset informed by white supremacist/xenophobic/anti-black ideals. Anti-LGBTQ+ politicians and voters have a mindset informed by transphobia and homophobia. This relationship should be simple but again and again in cases like this we have people rushing in to try and convince the very targets of this bigoted rhetoric that it has zero impact and is seperate from having any influence on the wider oppression of marginalized people.

This is not innocuous. It is not just a political belief. Hell even if you want to try and pigeon hole it as just a “political belief”, what comes from people’s political beliefs is action in how they vote for policies and politicians. Transgender people have to deal with insidious bathroom bills and are denied the opportunity to serve in the military because those who hold bigoted political beliefs vote in the monsters that act on that bigotry through policy. It astounds me that so many of those who claim to be allies to disenfranchised people and who claim to find rhetoric like this disgusting don’t seem to actually understand why it is disgusting and why it needs to be addressed when it pops up.
 
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LoFiLoon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
704
Wow, being a responsible consumer becomes harder and harder these days. Glad I saw this before purchasing. I'll definitely be putting my money toward something like Astroneer or The Sims instead.
 

Deleted member 56909

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May 21, 2019
446
underwater
Thanks for this! So many people seem invested in being oblivious to the idea that beliefs lead to action. Disenfranchised people wouldn’t get angry at rhetoric like this if we didn’t fundamentally know that it’s shit like that that perpetuates bigoted oppression and violence. Violent bigots act out violence that is informed by their world view. Rapists, sexual abusers, anti-choice fanatics have a mindset informed by rhetoric about women being inferior/women not being entitled to bodily autonomy. Klan members have a mindset informed by white supremacist ideals. Anti-LGBTQ+ politicians and voters have a mindset informed by transphobia and homophobia. This relationship should be simple but again and again in cases like this we have people rushing in to try and convince the very targets of this bigoted rhetoric that it has zero impact and is seperate from having any influence on the wider oppression of marginalized people. This is not innocuous. It is not just a political belief. Hell even if you want to try and pigeon hole it as just a “political belief”, what comes from people’s political beliefs is action in how they vote for policies and politicians. Transgender people have to deal with insidious bathroom bills and are denied the opportunity to serve in the military because those who hold bigoted political beliefs vote in the monsters that act on that bigotry through policy. It astounds me that so many of those who claim to be allies to disenfranchised people and who find rhetoric like this disgusting don’t seem to actually understand why it is disgusting and why it needs to be addressed when it pops up.
Actually the bathroom law got passed in the us so I can go to the ladies bathroom now. Although I had to fight for it at work because nobody realized it was now in effect had to go to hr about it. That said pretty much what I was getting at since we're dealing with a situation where your better off just talking to the hateful person for a period of 2 hours since that's actually the length of time it takes to make someone have a reasonable change in perspective. Its going to take alot of effort from allies and folks in our communities to just talk to these people and make sure they understand that what they know isn't actually correct or in most cases hurtful.
 

Kyuuji

Member
Nov 8, 2017
10,303
The fact most gaming outlets haven’t really reported any of this in the middle of August when nothing else is really going on is the weirdest part of this whole mess.
A pinned message from yesterday in the 3D Realms Discord says that a statement is being prepared:



They’ve been active in putting out the chatter about it when it’s arisen since this kicked off. As others have said, with it being the weekend I imagine they’re taking time to gather and assess.
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
14,843
Not America
I was listening to the latest GI podcast today and in it Imran Khan made his dislike for what THQN did blatantly obvious. Now, I am wonder whether they will, alongside (hopefully) Kotaku, pick up on this story.
 

data

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,538
A pinned message from yesterday in the 3D Realms Discord says that a statement is being prepared:



They’ve been active in putting out the chatter about it when it’s arisen since this kicked off. As others have said, with it being the weekend I imagine they’re taking time to gather and assess.
I doubt much will happen.

The fact they're censoring discussion is a bad sign
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,772
UK
I was listening to the latest GI podcast today and in it Imran Khan made his dislike for what THQN did blatantly obvious. Now, I am wonder whether they will, alongside (hopefully) Kotaku, pick up on this story.
This is the same Imran who's a user here, I think, and he's been in this thread and was quite active in the THQ Nordic threads.
 

usagi704

Member
Oct 27, 2017
105
I was planning on buying this game physically on PS4 or Switch. I'll just wait to get a cheap used copy so I can have my cake and eat it too.
 

Haze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,450
Atlanta, GA
I stopped reading that long screenshot after the one person implied that trans children should be beaten into “rationality”. absolutely fucking gross.
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,732
Just read the full context of the discord conversation and the irony of them disparaging children for not knowing anything while linking to the Federalist and spouting endless, easily disproved bullshit is killing me.
 

Tatsu91

Member
Apr 7, 2019
1,527
What really makes me mad is some members coming in and not only downplaying the things that devs did, they also get mad at the idea of review bombing the game or criticizing it.

Then if they get called out they start acting like they're the victim.
I am all for criticizing the product and devs definitely should be held accountable but i am always against review bombing a product for anything other than the quality of said product as you are reviewing the product when you review something. You are not reviewing who made it as you are not reviewing the beliefs or ignorance of the dev.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,166
I am all for criticizing the product and devs definitely should be held accountable but i am always against review bombing a product for anything other than the quality of said product as you are reviewing the product when you review something. You are not reviewing who made it as you are not reviewing the beliefs or ignorance of the dev.
Yeah, review bombing is in this sense is a failure of the games media - if the media reported on the hateful beliefs of the developers, then more people would know, and the need to review bomb to make people aware of those beliefs and to push people away from supporting the developers would be removed.

And the moisturizer bottles, that's a play on Olay, right?
I legit just thought "Oh, right, because moisturiser is so gay!" If it's a play on Olay, they're going to be wildly misunderstood, though tbh I don't think it is.
 

AlexFlame116

Member
Nov 17, 2017
17,034
Utah
I am all for criticizing the product and devs definitely should be held accountable but i am always against review bombing a product for anything other than the quality of said product as you are reviewing the product when you review something. You are not reviewing who made it as you are not reviewing the beliefs or ignorance of the dev.
The problem is that some were deliberately saying not to review bomb when no one mentioned that they were going to review bomb. And then many of them downplayed the issues that the devs are saying in regards to transphobia and women.

They immediately come here to tell people off about review bombing and being mean to the devs and dismiss what terrible things the devs said.

That isn't right.
 

Keasar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,948
Skövde, Sweden
"It was out of context snippets of discussion!"
*reads a full in-context discussion*
Yuuuuup, this game is now out of my entire zone of existence bye bye.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,813
Are those screenshots from the game?

If it is a pun on "Olay" or not, I don't think it makes a huge difference. The bigger issue is how they're using "gay" - and considering the other things we've seen from them, it looks like it's just for mockery?
 

Tatsu91

Member
Apr 7, 2019
1,527
The problem is that some were deliberately saying not to review bomb when no one mentioned that they were going to review bomb. And then many of them downplayed the issues that the devs are saying in regards to transphobia and women.

They immediately come here to tell people off about review bombing and being mean to the devs and dismiss what terrible things the devs said.

That isn't right.
Definitely agree and the whole being mean thing well you talk the talk then take the heat if you want to have ignorant beliefs that are hateful then you deserve any malice coming your way. and even with the context does not make it any better sadly.


Yeah, review bombing is in this sense is a failure of the games media - if the media reported on the hateful beliefs of the developers, then more people would know, and the need to review bomb to make people aware of those beliefs and to push people away from supporting the developers would be removed.



I legit just thought "Oh, right, because moisturiser is so gay!" If it's a play on Olay, they're going to be wildly misunderstood, though tbh I don't think it is.
The media should definitely report on it much better a metal musician does something its out in dozen outlets within the hour same should happen to video game devs etc.
 

PaulloDEC

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,408
Australia
I legit just thought "Oh, right, because moisturiser is so gay!" If it's a play on Olay, they're going to be wildly misunderstood, though tbh I don't think it is.
It's probably both. It's such a good game, i wish they hadn't filled it with this bullshit.
Olay is almost synonymous with moisturiser where I live, so I immediately assumed that was the reference they were making.

And yeah, it's definitely juvenile, but that's A) kinda their schtick, and B) not the real problem here, unfortunately.
 

K.Jack

Rap Genius
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
3,064
Dark Space
While I'm all in on discussing and scrutinizing the content of the actual games, I'm growing more and more tired of scrutinizing the beliefs or conduct or political stances of the people who makes or publishes the games. Specially when they are anonymous nobodies like in this case (it would be different if it was some celebrity that was generally followed as a role model by many people or something).

I'm sure there's plenty of awful people among those that produce many of the things I buy and consume: my groceries, my furniture, my clothing and of course my videogames.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't take action. I do combat them, all at once, where it matters: in real politics. Participating in debates on general news sites or even twitter, going to demonstrations that matter, bringing up the important issues in conversations with friends and colleagues, behaving well as a good citizen, and, of course, voting the right parties in the successive elections.

But don't see the point of giving them the attention here, because they happen to work making videogames.
This is so easy to say when you don't live every day as a member of one of the marginalized groups that are constantly shitted on and under attack. Imagine being tired of that, the disregard and hate of your very existence. Let me tell you, it is far more precarious and tiring than when white dudes just want everyone to shut up and play video games.

And yes, some of us do find it important to know that we aren't supporting game devs who are actively against our rights as human beings. If the people producing my groceries, furniture and clothing reveal their true colors, I'll stop supporting them as well. It's not that hard.
 
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