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Iran admits to shooting down Ukrainian airliner
- Thread starter FriskyCanuck
- Start date
Except it didn't come out of nowhere, it occurred after Trump killed a popular general that united the country. This is a reaction, it didn't happen in a vacuum.
Imagine being so hard up to shit on Trump you'll actively downplay Iran's culpability in killing 200 innocent people, many of them Iranian nationals. Dial it back a bit.
Here's a crazy thought! What if three ideas were equally true?
1. president Trump is directly responsible for an alarming and illegal escalation of tensions in the region and a catastrophic series of decisions that snatched defeat from the jaws of victory- risking amongother things - regional and global conflict and potentially decades of nuclear brinksmanship and 100% responsible for needlessly creating a scenario that as it turned out had tragic but unpredictable consequences for every soul on that plane. He should be removed from office and prosecuted for a cynical and purely political assassination
2. Iran is solely responsible for a series of incompetent and catastrophic errors which along with decades of international belligerence and arms speculation- directly caused the deaths of everyone on board.
3. suleimani is a murderous POS who has murdered his own citizens, foreigners and encouraged decades of sectarian violence, deserved to die and was illegally assassinated by a reckless ignorant moron who has no concept of or concern for consequences.
1. president Trump is directly responsible for an alarming and illegal escalation of tensions in the region and a catastrophic series of decisions that snatched defeat from the jaws of victory- risking amongother things - regional and global conflict and potentially decades of nuclear brinksmanship and 100% responsible for needlessly creating a scenario that as it turned out had tragic but unpredictable consequences for every soul on that plane. He should be removed from office and prosecuted for a cynical and purely political assassination
2. Iran is solely responsible for a series of incompetent and catastrophic errors which along with decades of international belligerence and arms speculation- directly caused the deaths of everyone on board.
3. suleimani is a murderous POS who has murdered his own citizens, foreigners and encouraged decades of sectarian violence, deserved to die and was illegally assassinated by a reckless ignorant moron who has no concept of or concern for consequences.
Iran bulldozed the crash site, originally refused to give up the black boxes, lied and said the plane crashed due to "malfunction" and only admitted guilt after numerous other nations concluded themselves that it was brought down by missile and pressured Iran into admitted fault.
Man, we should be glad Iran has been like soooooo much more honest than the US throughout this whole ordeal....
it did and Russia was pretty much directly the cause of it but nothing ever came of it. I think the plane was primarily filled with belgians or netherlanders.
yeah, but before the plane went down everyone was relieved they responded the way they did, nobody had died, even Trump looked relieved. I'd just like this disaster to wake a few people up on either side in a way that the usual innocent victims and dead soldiers don't.
i just feel that the blame game is sometimes counter-productive.
We like to blame high level entities but let's not forget that it's the grunts that pull the trigger. Chain of command is bullshit, you're a human with freewill and we should instill a cultural foundation that when someone says "kill" you say "fuck off, do it yourself."
Absolutely 100%, it's pure garbage that shouldn't be in here and only serves to offensively simplify a horrendous tragedy that just cost hundreds of lives.
I mean... yes. It's very hard not to sound "both sides!"-y in this matter, but, the way I see it, nobody here is a poor, blameless victim.
Sure. But what's the penalty for treason in Iran? What happens to that grunt who doesn't pull the trigger? I don't think it's that easy to just say "do it yourself" if you value your own life. Sucks, I know, but that's why all these people keep getting away with their shit.
User Banned (3 Months): Series of false equivalencies in a sensitive thread
Soleimani commanded the Quds Force. The Quds Force focuses on operations external to Iran itself, as opposed to internal matters like suppressing protests. In other words, Soleimani was not a commander of the government forces which were invovled in violently suppressing protesters inside Iran.
Moving on to your next point, I don't really understand what "chief agent of repression means". I'm not sure if you know what it means, either. As per above, Soleimani headed up the Quds Force, which focused on projecting Iran's power and interests outside of Iran. Repression is something a state does internally to its citizens - again not Solemiani's focus, which was on organizing operations outside Iran's borders.
'Brutal theocratic regime' is a useless collection of words (regime the most meaningless of all) which are supposed to make the reader believe that a government is 'bad' without doing any of the work. What Iran has is a government. Different countries have different kinds of governments, that do different kinds of things. There are better or worse systems or government, and better or worse governments. But I don't see why I should believe Iran's is specifically worse than any other without a real argument. I could say that the US is a "brutal oligarchic regime" but just saying that doesn't make it true, nor does it mean that anyone who works for the US is a monster.
As for "working through violence to spread the government's interest" - that's just the definition of working in the police or in the army for any government on Earth. I'm afraid that's a job that millions of people are currently doing, it doesn't make them monsters. As you haven't made the case for Iran's government being specifically terrible, I don't understand how Soleimani was a monster for doing his job.
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Iran is a dictatorship, so if orders are to deny, everyone will do so fervently until ordered otherwise. It's how you survive in an environment like that.
Am I reading too much into this or is it interesting that they're laying the blame on an IRGC base? After the death of the Quds commander and the many deaths that followed from his funeral. Was it a statement from Rouhani?
They are blaming it on IRGC because IRGC is responsible. They should have never been trusted with these lethal equipment. IRGC should hand all their weapons to the Iranian military immediately.
Yes. I remember criticism from that time from people wondering why commercial planes were flying over a warzone.
I think in the future, before flying I'll make sure my route isn't flying over any areas that are currently sensitive.
Wait, after reading that article:
The Canadian government had earlier lowered the nation's death toll from 63 to 57, but the total of deaths is still the same and no other country revised its number.
So, where those six passengers were from and why no country is reclaiming them?
The Canadian government had earlier lowered the nation's death toll from 63 to 57, but the total of deaths is still the same and no other country revised its number.
So, where those six passengers were from and why no country is reclaiming them?
How does an error like this happen in 2020? Am I overestimating modern technology that is available to armies? Like wtf, don't they have radars that automatically identify planned commercial flights and aircraft type?
I mean, a human is still the person firing the thing. Russia shot down a Ukranian plane by accident not that long ago.
Not a personal slight but his is so fucking sad. A Malaysian plane got shot by Russians killing mostly dutch people. Russia immediatly started a disinformation campaign, never admitted anything and got away with it while western politicians were too chicken shit to upset Putin and Trump is still denying their culpability. And aparantly we have reached the point where people are starting to forget. Let's see how different this response will be when there is no risk of undermining natural gas import.
But those were rebels, with probably less sophisticated tech available.
The opposite. Iran likely had less sophisticated tech then those "rebels" that weren't really rebels. Remember, Iran buys Russia's old stuff.
I agree with these points, although I don't think anyone in this thread has fundamentally argued otherwise (as far as I can tell).
The main point of contention appears to be whether Trump/the US should be considered indirectly responsible for the death of these airline passengers, given that Soleimani's assassination put in motion the short-term series of events that ultimately lead to the tragedy.
This is the way I see it: was it reasonably foreseeable that the assassination would lead to the loss of life, either due to direct conflict or an atmosphere of heightened tension in Iran/Iraq/the US that could cause military or police personnel to make deadly errors/mistakes in judgement? I think the answer is yes, so the US bears some degree of responsibility.
Having said that, the errors displayed by the Iranian military command here are so unbelievably egregious that I believe the vast majority of the blame lies with them.
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its the probably best way to look at this whole thing. the whole with/for camp doesn't make sense when you're dealing with multiple bad faith actors.
Iran buys new stuff from Russia. S-400 missile system isn't old tech and Iran has tried to buy them. Iran's army supplied Iraq with modern weapons in 2014 when they started to combat against ISIS with them.
This whole situation is a nightmare and a clusterfuck. While not taking any blame from Iran I can not understand how in the hell any flights would be cleared to take off in this situation. Missiles had just been fired at a target, nobody knew what kind of repercussion would happen so how do you let a flight take off?
Yup, what struck me most about this is how Iran has actually admitted to this and psychotic trump supporters accuse democrats of supporting terrorists, whereas they completely ignore MH17 because they'll bend over backwards to defend Putin over all else. Hell, I'm surprised the GOP haven't tried to blame Ukraine for this as well.