yeah, ok. so then their excuse was bullshit? that is literally their reason for this.
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Iran admits to shooting down Ukrainian airliner
- Thread starter FriskyCanuck
- Start date
Why not? They first claimed it was "technically infeasible" for the plane to have been shot down. They only admitted to what was completely impossible to deny.
If they can't follow simple procedure or even logistics to make sure commercial civilian airspace is closed during large scale missile launches, well imagine the bomb.
So essentially this would not have happened because Trump therefore Trump is responsible? You should be gathering petitions and protesters to take him and administration to court
It's difficult to trust any Nation with nuclear bombs. That's the whole point of the Nuclear Treaty (or, was at least).
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Indeed. They blame heightened tensions and then say "and they asked for it, they went over military airspace unexpectedly"
One, horseshit that plane did nothing of the sort.
Two, we circle to the fact Iran let civilian aircraft in the air when according to them, they were activating AA defenses for immediate shoot down.
As I showed in my prior reply, the U.S proactively ensures that civilian aircraft aren't at risk in potential conflict zones, where the fuck is the Iranian responsibility to do the same especially when their foreign minister reminded the the U.S of shooting down Iranian flight 655 days prior.
Yes, their "excuse" is bullshit.
Though to be honest I don't consider it an outright excuse, as they didn't handwave away fault like we did with IA Flight 655 when we basically said we had to shoot it down because it was descending(it wasn't) towards our naval group and they had to defend themselves, with Iran this is like, fluff, they admit that they've fucked up and committed a wrong but had to add some BS reasoning for why it wasn't totally gross incompetence.
I get why some consider it an excuse but to me an excuse is more like asking to be excused for making a mistake and they're not really asking for that. But it's a fine line I guess.
Wtf. You give credit to Iran for giving the exact excuse as the U.S did for Flight 655 while calling out the U.S in the exact same sentence.
Forgive me for stereotyping, but I've read several articles suggesting middle-eastern armies are notoriously badly trained and managed. It makes sense though, any real conflict is going to be resolved by third parties getting involved (The USA, Russia, China, ECT) so the overall combat-readiness of the nation itself is less important, so all sorts of corruption takes root (Not that there's no corruption in first world powers, but at least they know that if they fuck up nobody can bail them out.)
So yeah, the fact that they blew up a plane by accident doesn't shock me overly much.
So yeah, the fact that they blew up a plane by accident doesn't shock me overly much.
Hitler had a horrible childhood.
So we can blame Hitler on his shitty parents for traumatizing him.
And we can blame his grandparents for probably traumatizing his parents.
Etc.
Or we can blame Hitler.
For this plane crash, it is 100% Iran's fault. Period.
So we can blame Hitler on his shitty parents for traumatizing him.
And we can blame his grandparents for probably traumatizing his parents.
Etc.
Or we can blame Hitler.
For this plane crash, it is 100% Iran's fault. Period.
bit of a weird comparison, i think Hitler did everything on purpose.
It's not the same, Iran has actually admitted fault, expressed it's condolences and publicly apologized, and has at least promised(for what that's worth) to hold responsible those who made the fuck up. The United States on the other hand never admitted actual fault, though we never denied we actually did it, gave a more half assed apology than Iran has here as just a quick aside during a press event, and gave out medals to the crew that shot down the Iranian plane, albeit NOT for shooting down an Iranian airliner of course but it was considered that there was no error in judgement, no mistake made, and thus medals for everyone for their deployment.
It's actually very different.
Man there's so many bad comparisons in this thread.
But you keep telling yourself that Trump is to blame for them shhoting down an airplane in fear of counter retaliation to their own retaliation XD
U.S: we shot down this plane
Iran: we shot down this plane
U.S: but.
Iran: but.
U.S: it was heading straight for us.
Iran: it was heading straight for us.
Get the fuck outta here with that shit.
I mean, after lying about the incident, and seemingly still lying about the events.
But we'll need to see the compensation package for the victims families before completely comparing the responses. So far they are both seriously wanting.
I'd imagine the ones in leadership positions probably weren't aware of what had happened initially. The news had to trickle upwards from the ones who pulled the trigger after all. Though it really shouldn't have taken more than a day to find out the truth.
Still a colossal fuckup by them. Hope they compensate the victims fast.
True but when was the last time your government admitted to anything?
I don't like Trump but I really don't understand why people are blaming him for this.
This is 100% Iran's fault, showing absolute incompetence. I pray for the families and these poor unfortunate souls and hope justice is done.
This is 100% Iran's fault, showing absolute incompetence. I pray for the families and these poor unfortunate souls and hope justice is done.
You can't really conflate the strengths & weaknesses of different militaries within a region. Iran, for example, has one of the strongest militaries within the Middle East, which is why they persevered in the Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s (which they fought with little help, even while Iraq was backed by the West to the level of being provided with Chemical Weapons). Of course, their real strength isn't in their ability fight a direct confrontation, but to fight asymmetrically (e.g. through supporting proxies & other regional allies to further their goals).
This particular disaster cannot be blamed on them being amateurs in this arena.
The US does it all the time, how many funerals, weddings etc. have been accidentally bombed? Whoopsie, we thought you were terrorists ...
Do you not understand nuance? Mistakes have causes but those causes do not always absolve you of responsibility.
In the US's case we claimed the conditions of the accident absolved us of all responsibility, it was simple cause and effect, no mistake was made and the basic physics of the universe caused this unfortunate incident to occur. Couldn't be helped.
Iran's lists extremely similar reasons for why they made the mistake but admitted responsibility, have claimed that they want to prevent these incidents from occuring again, promise to investigate and hold responsible anyone who fucked up. They're basically saying that despite the situation being what it was the event still shouldn't have happened.
It's like a police shooting. They all have cited reasons for why they shot the person, the question was was it a justified shooting or not, did the cop fuck up or not? In neither this or IA Flight 655 was it a justified shootdown, Iran admits that despite their claims as to how they made the mistake that it wasn't justified, the United States to this day has not admitted they were not justified in downing their airliner.
That's a big difference in their response to ours.
Now, of course they did initially lie about the incident. And even if they didn't lie and the Ayatollah really didn't find out until Friday as claimed they still have to own the fact that people in their government did lie and attempted to cover it up, so either way they tried to cover it up.
And of course no-one knows if they are serious about upgrading their systems, putting new protocols in place to prevent this happening again or will really hold anyone responsible or even the right people responsible and not just pick a scapegoat.
And yes, we will also need to see any financial compensation.
I'm not saying Iran's response is fantastic, just pointing out the areas it was better than ours, and worse.
So sad for the people who lost their lives in this tragedy 😕
Glad Iran did the right thing (eventually) and fessed up. For a while I thought it was going to turn into one of those things where they never admit what actually happened.
Hopefully this will help all relatives and friends affected on their journey to closure after this terrible event.
Glad Iran did the right thing (eventually) and fessed up. For a while I thought it was going to turn into one of those things where they never admit what actually happened.
Hopefully this will help all relatives and friends affected on their journey to closure after this terrible event.
This is the fog of war.
Even Geraldo Rivera gets it.
You ramp up military tension between two nations and innocent people often get caught in the crossfire. The United States shares some blame due to blowing the doors off of anything prior after assassinating Soleimani with a drone.
Even Geraldo Rivera gets it.
You ramp up military tension between two nations and innocent people often get caught in the crossfire. The United States shares some blame due to blowing the doors off of anything prior after assassinating Soleimani with a drone.
I am completely mind blown that people in this thread are playing the blame game
It's both countries faults and no one can entirely point the finger at the other
It's shocking that there are people trying to defend one country over the other. I just feel for the innocent bystanders caught in the crossfire.
It's both countries faults and no one can entirely point the finger at the other
It's shocking that there are people trying to defend one country over the other. I just feel for the innocent bystanders caught in the crossfire.
If Iranian high command isn't essentially instantly aware that an air defense station fired a missile, their problems are far worse than even this event shows.
Keep up friend. He openly admitted today that he did this to curry favour from senators that will be pivotal in the upcoming impeachment trial.
I don't think Skill shaming is the adequate type of blame to be placed here.
Sure but the assassination happened in Iraq, if Iran was concerned about an air strike in Iran, they should've grounded all flights.
I very much doubt any of these people would be dead if the US hadn't dropped out of the Iran agreement. Very sad. Trump didn't directly cause this, but his general incompetence set the Rube Goldberg of Dumb in motion.
Indeed that would show a total logistical failure on the part of how the Iranians communicate internally and whether high command even has control over military staff.
It's mindblowing just how much people are going to bat for Iran by "both sides"-ing this incident. This didn't take place in Iraq or a currently contested area, this took place IN THE CAPITAL OF IRAN. Iran shot down its own airplane seemingly for no reason, then tried to cover it up, lied about it, until video evidence and other countries had proof AND THEN decided to come clean. Iran killed Canadians and it's own civilians in this idiotic and senseless killing of civilians. That's just pure incompetence. Trump is an asshole for many things, but just because he's a monster doesn't mean you can just handwave Iran's involvement. Iran is currently in armed conflict with many countries all at the same time, do you blame them as well for murdering their own civilians and shooting down their own planes inside Iran?
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Oh my fucking god will you people stop with this bullshit "defending Iran" garbage? Just fucking stop. Saying that the US has blame in this incident is not the same as "going to bat for Iran". It's not. Acknowledging that the US has blood on its hands in this tragedy does not in anyway defend Iran or absolve it.
It's just placing blame where it belongs and the US deserves a chunk of it. Jesus Christ.
They're all guilty.
Trump and Iran. Neither side takes precautions or uses common sense with their military actions. They callously and carelessly attack one another with little or no regard for civilian casualties. And in Trump's case, he only cares if it's US casualties. If Iraqis died in that Iranian counterattack, he still would have said "All is well."
There is no right side here. Iran has zero moral leverage. So, anyone acting like they can be forgiven for shooting down a passenger plane coming out of their own capital airport is too obsessed with making Trump look like the sole bad guy.
They're both the bad guys.
Trump and Iran. Neither side takes precautions or uses common sense with their military actions. They callously and carelessly attack one another with little or no regard for civilian casualties. And in Trump's case, he only cares if it's US casualties. If Iraqis died in that Iranian counterattack, he still would have said "All is well."
There is no right side here. Iran has zero moral leverage. So, anyone acting like they can be forgiven for shooting down a passenger plane coming out of their own capital airport is too obsessed with making Trump look like the sole bad guy.
They're both the bad guys.
That's just my assumption really. We don't know yet how the event unfolded and what happened afterwards.
But yes they are probably not as organized / sophisticated as what they want people to perceive, and also shows the lack of chain of commands and communications if some soldiers could just pull the trigger of SAM that near to the capital city without any checks.
People putting words in other people mouths in this thread repeatedly is embarrassing, whether from users or mods, it doesnt matter. I swear the middle part of this thread is mostly "Are you defending Soulemani?" "Are you defending Iran?" "Are you defending the US in this while conflict?".
Stinkles' post pretty much summed it up. And its really not outlandish that people disagree whether Iran is 100% at fault or the US shares a small portion of the blame, unnecessarily escalating for political reasons.
Way too much bad faith arguing in here for such a small difference of opinion.
Stinkles' post pretty much summed it up. And its really not outlandish that people disagree whether Iran is 100% at fault or the US shares a small portion of the blame, unnecessarily escalating for political reasons.
Way too much bad faith arguing in here for such a small difference of opinion.
Iran was viewed as a serious power in the region, a lot of Arabs and Sunni's in particular saw them as a Goliath. This whole ordeal and reeeeeeally damaged their image. The fact that their response to the US attack killed no US citizens and instead shot down a civilian airplane instead killed hundreds of Iranians, if it wasn't so tragic it'd be clown like. Can imagine the US is now thinking "these are the people we were sacred of enriching uranium?"
Pointing out that it's American aggression that put Iran in a position to have its anti-aircraft weaponry turned on in the first place seems like an honest assessment of the situation, to me. The regime clearly fucked up here, in multiple ways, but pointing out that the conditions that led this to happen were not solely a product of the regime's machinations is important in understanding how to prevent something like this from happening again.
As if there isn't massive public evidence in the MH17 case, like the rocket traveling from Russia to Ukraine via Facebook/Social media pics...
But it's Russia/Putin, they never will tell the truth in that tragedy and show weakness.
The not-killing US citizens was completely on purpose though. Without his tragic incident, it would have been a very smart retaliation.
Americans didn't die because Iran didn't want any to die.
Without this tragedy it would have been a textbook response.
I had this same thought. Often it's not even accidental, just acceptable collateral damage.
They tried their best to cover it up but realized they couldn't. pictures of the picked debris, video of the missile, and radar tracking the launches meant that trying to hide it wasn't viable.
that's what I was thinking. Closing airspace was a must for someone who may enter in war. That's pretty basic for anyone.
Iran was forced to admit it.
They wanted to cover it up with technical issues.
The fact that they didn't bother to shut down their own airport during all this shows how ignorant and arrogant their ruling party is. How the hell do you allow arrivals and departures to any commerical or passenger aircraft in the country during an active military crisis with rockets being fired into another country?
It's disturbing how little thought they put into protecting their own people. But that's Iran's government as it is.
They wanted to cover it up with technical issues.
The fact that they didn't bother to shut down their own airport during all this shows how ignorant and arrogant their ruling party is. How the hell do you allow arrivals and departures to any commerical or passenger aircraft in the country during an active military crisis with rockets being fired into another country?
It's disturbing how little thought they put into protecting their own people. But that's Iran's government as it is.
I'm fully aware of that, but this tragedy DID happen and as a result the entire Iran response makes them look comically incapable.