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Iranian metal band Confess sentenced to 14 1/2 years in prison, 74 lashes, granted asylum in Norway
- Thread starter Deleted member 15428
- Start date
I don't understand... 1400 years of Islamic history... and not a single day with a sharia law that was as strict and violent as the one today. Islamic world, especially Persia had always been fairly liberal. Wine, drugs, prostitution, they had never been absent in Persian daily life. Criticism of leaders and the religion? Have ayatollahs today ever read Omar Khayyam or Ganjavi? If they were alive today, Khamanei would have skinned them alive.
No one is insulting you? They are insulting god and religion. And that's perfectly fine in any fair and free society.
How do you know that the prophet is not directly or indirectly responsible for what's happening right now? He's like the representative of god is he not? These are all powerful beings right? Why would he be beyond reproach? Are you saying that these powerful beings like god cannot take a little insult from puny humans?
If you are confident enough in your religion and your god, such things should not bother you. Just as you are free to practice your religion and believe in your god, I am free to not believe in imaginary people living in the sky and mock this idea that there's this all powerful person up there who just should not be insulted.
Nah. Religion should be mocked. Fully and totally. To show ridiculous it is. And how nonsensical religious rules and laws are. Mocking something takes away it's power. And because religion is so dangerous these days and is used to oppress vast swathes of people across the world, I think it's necessary to take away that power.
So, I will just suggest that if you are interacting with folks outside the Islamic world, be prepared to have religion insulted and mocked.
At least they have the name of their next album now.
Ok yeah, that's kind of messed up. Then again, religion is a favored excuse for making the world worse, so it's no surprise.
Silver lining tho, that band can now say they are so brutal the authorities wanted to execute them for it, which is the most metal thing I've heard in a long time.
Silver lining tho, that band can now say they are so brutal the authorities wanted to execute them for it, which is the most metal thing I've heard in a long time.
What are you taking about? I was responding to an offensive comment that the poster made. I can do that and still support human rights. It's not a binary choice here.
You got it, clearly the Iranian Regime is not following and implementing the lessons and laws. Like I said before, they're just using and interpreting Sharia as they see fit without any adherence to how it was used in the past. It doesn't make sense because their understanding is warped.
You got me.
I've only made two posts. One, a reply too a poster. And the second replying to everyone else who quoted me in their posts. I stayed mostly on their points. I did make sure to touch on Iran and this case in my second post, and denounced their actions. Of course it's wrong that innocent people are being arrested and sentenced, I never said or implied that any of that was okay. And I did express my anger at this case. It's right there in my second post. To you that was a throw away comment, tho me that was unnecessarily ride and offensive. I thought we were supposed to behave in some sort of civility.
I disagree with you about your suggestions of me using whataboutisms to downplay this case. I used examples to demonstrate that injustice was happening around the world, regardless of the societal structure, and I denounce all of them. These issues are not unrelated, they all stem from flaws in the setup of these regimes.
When I said national law, it wasn't to downplay anything, it's their law, wether backed by religion or not. Their law is based on their interpretation of Sharia, what's new here? This has been known for years. Iran isn't a secular country.
My meaning was that Muslims are weak right now due to those extremists in charge oppressing their citizenry, as exemplified in the case, in Saddam's Iraq, Afghanistan to name a few. Iran has cracked down on its modernising elements, in that respect Muslims are weak.
I said religion is being used as a tool to kill people, yes. It's not a weird attempt at justification. I'm religious, my friends are religious, my family are religious, none of us are killing people. To paint religion as a source responsible for all the ills is nonsensical, and has more to do with your beliefs than anything.
We're going to disagree on that.
Sorry, you are slightly incorrect. The Qur'an doesn't mention any actual penalty for death, only that you should not sit with the mockers or those who disbelief until the talk changes. The hadiths mention punishments, and one of those is death but even that is believed to be in the context of treason in a time of war. I think flogging is also mentioned in a hadith, but again the context matters and it is rare for such punishments to be applied, scholars have argued against these sentences, and there is debate between the different schools of thought on these matters. But countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia like to implement such practices. The laws and sentencing are fluid because individual cases are different, but these laws are not something that a layperson like me can just read and start implementing just like that. There's much more to it than just that, like context, understanding of and the reaoning behind the texts, understanding the case that is being judged. There's depth and consideration that has to go into it and that's something that these countries don't do and take the easy option of just going straight to the punishment.
And to your point that the Prophet would approve of how Iran is dealing with these guys, I honestly don't think he would. Like I have previously mentioned, the laws implementation and interpretation changes with who's deciding them. If they choose to deviate from the teachings, that's not the fault of the teacher.
The Prophet was persecuted during the time he was preaching the revelation in Mecca and was driven out. During those years, the Muslims were given no command to retaliate. Even when they returned, the people who had persecuted them were pardoned.
And no, the Prophet does not actively promote this sort of punishment. You'll have to provide sources where it is shown him to be doing this so we can look at it and see it's worth. At this moment I'm going to presume it is just conjecture on your end, but please let me see where that is so.
This might be a poor analogy, but if the teacher says do not kill except in self defense, and the student goes out and kills someone by instigating the act by themselves and then claims self defense as a reason, who's at fault? The teacher or the student? The student of course, because they did not adhere to what they were taught and choose to believe what they wanted to believe by twisting the teachings. Hope that makes sense.
I appreciate the response and the additional information. I really don't have the background or experience to try to argue your points as you seem to have a far better grasp of this than I, so I'll just say that the way Iran in particular is handling this situation seems...extreme.
I'm barely a novice myself, so I appreciate you participating in the discussion. You're not wrong, the handling is extreme and that's due to the fact that the extreme element is in control right now.
They're not insulting me but they're insulting my God and religion? They're insulting me indirectly. If I'm invested in my faith, of course I would feel hurt if some stranger comes along and hurls insults. And yes it's fine to do that if you want to be rude about it, but then it's equally fine for me to be able to call out that insulting behaviour, right?
How do you know that the Prophet is directly or indirectly responsible for what's going on? The people responsible for what's going on are the people committing these actions. I'm confused about the next part of your point that your making. The Prophet is not an all powerful being, he's a human being. And I'm not saying nor have I implied that God 'cannot take a little insult from puny humans?' as you put it. That's coming completely from you. My defending my faith when it is attacked has nothing to do with the status of their Godhood. The question is, why shouldn't I defend it and call out people who hurl slurs just because they can? Should I just stay silent and meekly watch when I can say no, actually I'll respond to that, you don't get to say 'fuck so and so' about someone I care about and don't get called out on it.
Likewise if you're so confident in your belief that you can mock whosoever and whatsoever you please, you shouldn't mind at all me disagreeing with you, right? That's how it works, by your standards. So you shouldn't be really bothered at all about what I have to say. I don't think the premise of your point is sound.
On your point about religion should be mocked. We are taught not to mock other people's faith, all it does is antogonizes people and they retreat back into their original positions and you leave no room for dialogue. You can mock all you want, you'll not only antagonize the extremists, but you'll lose the moderates too. Mockery takes away power? Yeah, great job on that front. If I was to do the same to you and mock you're beliefs, you'll be okay with that, right? And I'll be taking away power too, right? I don't think so. You have the luxury of mockery, the citizens of Iran do not.
I have interacted with people outside the Islamic World for the majority of my existence on this planet. I have found them to be generally nice, polite and respectful and when faith was discussed it was done so sincerely and with kindness. My only other encounters have been with racists and mockers, and direct contact with mockery in this thread. I've seen it on YouTube vids, and talking with points on TV, but I'm doing just fine thank you. I'm curious, where are you from where I can expect to come into contact with people who openly insult and mock religion?
I dunno, mockery and insult don't look like positive tools to me. Is there anything separating any side when both are hurling insults at each other? Seems childish.
I think I addressed most of your points, so here on out, I'm not directing the following at you directly.
First, I would like to apologize to CrazyAndy for the way I replied to you. My aim was to use your phrase back at you as a response. But upon re-reading my response and listening to the lecture today before Friday prayers which reinforced the conclusion I had reached, it was not the appropriate way to respond to you. So I am sorry if I hurt your feelings in any way or offended you. I do, however, still disagree with your post and that comment specifically. And I take the mod warning for what it is but also with some pride that, rather than just lurking, I did actually do something proactive.
The only way Iran can change is by the citizens taking action themselves and with careful international support. The last time the US did a regime change in Iran, they toppled a democratically elected government and installed the Shah of Iran as a puppet monarch which led to Revolution and the current regime Iran has now with it's extremist ideology. And that's what they were, a extremist movement that came to the fore because of outside meddling. That's why these hard-line views and laws exist and why there continue to be cases of injustice. Insults and mockery from external forces mean little, they just get ignored or are used as examples of attack against all Muslim citizens. There are moderates in Iran, that get trampled down and oppressed, yes, but given time and opportunity, maybe they will be able to reclaim power and seek to change their country for the better. Change can happen fast or it can happen slow. As the next generation reaches adulthood, they might be able to weaken the hardliners enough to enact change. That's all I have to say for now. I don't even know if what I just wrote makes sense.
Of course Norway. In Norway you can get arrested if your metal isn't blasphemous enough. Music can be dangerous, it unites people across the world regardless of race and religion. No wonder it still scares so many in authority. God* bless Norway and God* bless Metal.
* Probable Thor in this case.
* Probable Thor in this case.
A dude was sentenced to 74 lashes for playing music because of religion. I think it deserves at least some mocking.
Still mental to me that certain countries are still totally controlled by a mythical text from thousands of years ago.
No, the guy was sentenced to 74 lashes because of that regimes interpretation of religion. That's an important distinction. Saying 'fuck prophet...' is not mocking, it's a slur. Mock the regime, the religion doesn't say the punishment for playing music is to lash someone. You've got the wrong target. But it could be that my understanding is wrong somewhere, I'm willing to concede that I'm wrong if you can show me where in the Qur'an or in an authentic hadith that punishment is prescribed for that crime. Jurisprudence in Islam is more sophisticated than just passing out such sentences as these regimes tend to do.
Got to have the religion bashing hot-takes in a thread about people being prosecuted for getting a dictator mad.
It's just authoritarians needing justification for their power. Don't apply logic to it, it doesn't apply.
When said dictator justifies his iron grip on the country through religion? Well, yeah. Can you really blame them?
Who do you think is directly insulting the Prophet more, the government of Iran who has full control over the life and deaths of millions of people, or the poster who said "Fuck the prophet". Because the vibe that I get is that you got rather upset at the poster, perhaps understandably, but when it comes to this story it seems to be "Well they seem to be interpreting Shariah incorrectly hopefully it will change in the future or something I don't know (shrug)". People should be significantly more upset at this, but they're not. That's why the government doesn't change.
Nice laws you got there... if it wasn't real i would burst out laughing. But it's real and it's inhumane. No idea why a person would want to live in a country like that. Seriously. This is a country that seem to exist solely to suck the joy out of the life of their inhabitants. No fun allowed.
So, similarly, should people stop saying "Jesus Christ" in reaction to things because it offends devout Christians who are offended by taking the lord's name in vain?
Don't you think, then, that you should be angry at the regime and not people who are angry of these events?
And how the hell would anyone find anything in hundreds of years old books about playing metal music?! That's exactly the problem with these old religions: their base of conduct was made ages ago, when the whole society, technology, way of life was different.
If thou streameth music of blackest metal of the people of Scandic North
Thou shall be publicly shamed on the Book of Faces
It shouldn't be a question of who is directly insulting the Prophet more. You can take umbrage at both. I already answered your other points in my prior post. Regardless of if they're interpreting the Sharia wrong or either they're just implementing such a crazy law, it is nuts. And suggesting a solution about affecting change compared to a posters suggestion that mockery will somehow reduce the regimes power isn't me shrugging my shoulders.
Yes, why not? If your not a Christian, you can substitute something else. If you don't want to offend Christians, sure. It's not a big deal. If you want to keep using it, that's on you.
Let me be clear, I am angry at the regime and not angry at the at the people angry at these events. You will notice, that I have been particular about discussing somethings that people have said, wether in anger or because it's a free opportunity to bash Islam. Or do you think that's acceptable? To equate the two together as the same thing? I can agree with the right thing that somebody says while disagreeing with the wrong thing they also said.
Exactly, there are no rulings on metal music, so each country have their own interpretation and application. If they based their understanding based on what will support their ideology, then that's the outcome. Iran's ideology is extreme so their interpretation is extreme. That's on them.
Yea, that's the point. Why should people alter their own language and phrasing for a group of people who willingly made a choice to enter into a specific religion. You're comparing saying "Jesus Christ" and "fuck the prophet" as slurs, which is ridiculous because being religious is 100% a choice and telling others to alter their word usage because it's offensive to your religious affiliation is directly trying to tell other people how to phrase things to fit your own world view and framework that has been crafted from choosing to be religious within XYZ faith.
Saying 'fuck the prophet' is not a slur? I'm interested to know what you think it is?