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Ireland: Lootboxes aren’t gambling

Nirolak

Nirolak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,660
It's because, as you have likely guessed, you can't cash out the rewards for real money.

GamesIndustry.biz said:
Loot boxes don't fall under gambling legislation, says Irish government

Department of Justice backs away from issue after co-signing declaration commending "blurring of lines between gaming and gambling"
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Despite joining 15 other countries in signing a declaration to unite against skins gambling and loot boxes, the Irish government has no plans to crackdown on the practice.
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As reported by Irish Legal News, Stanton argued that loot boxes "fall within normal consumer law" rather than gambling legislation.

"Where a game offers the possibility of placing a bet or the taking of risk for financial reward within the game, then, in my view it must be licensed as a gambling product..." he said.

"However, it should be understood, that if a game offers in-game purchases - be they loot boxes, skins, etc. - which are promoted to gamers as increasing their chances of success, such purchases are essentially a commercial or e-commerce activity."
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Source: https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...ot-gambling-legislation-says-irish-government

Edit:

For those curious about results so far:

Rulings/investigations ending in "Not Gambling":
- UK
- France
- Germany
- New Zealand
- Denmark
- Ireland
- (Basically all of the above made this ruling as you can't cash out for real money)

Found as "Gambling":
- Belgium

Mixed Result:
- Hawaii: Did a lot of grandstanding, gutted bill in state legislature to change it to something entirely unrelated, has never talked about it again
- Netherlands: Only gambling if you can cash out for cash *or cash equivalents* like Steam Money, so Valve's games got hit and nothing else
- Washington State: Actually has a tangential issue where they said it's illegal to get things that let you keep playing the game (like coins in a casino game) from a random chance game like Slots, but almost no games do this except literal casino games
- Australia: Said similar to gambling, seemingly opted to do nothing, we'll see how this evolves

Still Investigating:
- Sweden
 
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unicornKnight

unicornKnight

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,169
Athens, Greece
I agree, they aren't the same, gambling is legal, loot boxes should be labeled as anti-consumer scam and be banned entirely.
 
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UnderNewOwnership

Member
Dec 4, 2017
3,097
They're only partly wrong.

Lootboxes aren't gambling. They're worse than gambling. You get all the addictive aspects of gambling (presentation, expectation, retries, house-weighted randomness, etc.), but without actually being able to get something tangible for the money you put in it.

It would be like, say drinking, and going directly from the flashiness of mixing cocktails, presentation of the drinks with all their decorations, directly to the hang-over, without the actual alcohol buzz.
 
Wez

Wez

Member
Sep 11, 2018
298
Never liked Ireland anyway.

Ireland has always been a haven for corporations looking to dodge taxes, I imagine this decision is an extension of their friendliness to private businesses.
 
Zhukov

Zhukov

Banned
Dec 6, 2017
2,641
UnderNewOwnership said:
Lootboxes aren't gambling. They're worse than gambling. You get all the addictive aspects of gambling (presentation, expectation, retries, house-weighted randomness, etc.), but without actually being able to get something tangible for the money you put in it.
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How dare you. My gold weapon skins keep me warm at night.
 
Al3x1s

Al3x1s

Banned
Nov 13, 2017
2,824
Greece
If you narrow it down so much, that the rewards can't be cashed out, don't you open the door to how that stuff is done in Japan where you just get worthless "balls" or whatever out of gambling but can then go to any number of stores willing to take the balls off you for money or something along those lines? I might be talking out of my ass here, I've not exactly researched it, I think I read something along those lines in the past.


UnderNewOwnership said:
They're only partly wrong.

Lootboxes aren't gambling. They're worse than gambling. You get all the addictive aspects of gambling (presentation, expectation, retries, house-weighted randomness, etc.), but without actually being able to get something tangible for the money you put in it.

It would be like, say drinking, and going directly from the flashiness of mixing cocktails, presentation of the drinks with all their decorations, directly to the hang-over, without the actual alcohol buzz.
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So if I'm playing an RPG with any number of randomly generated elements like chests and enemy drops I'm gambling and the software is immoral and should be illegal or is that okay because there's no purchase for each chest and enemy drop and instead I paid the $60 or whatever up front, but then got addicted from all that stuff and was willing to buy the DLC, expansions and sequels to satisfy my thirst? And aren't all games basically made to be addictive anyway to keep you playing? Nobody wants a boring game, if every game was boring there'd be no industry left. Etc. Lol. Need better definitions.
 
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PlanetSmasher

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,531
UnderNewOwnership said:
They're only partly wrong.

Lootboxes aren't gambling. They're worse than gambling. You get all the addictive aspects of gambling (presentation, expectation, retries, house-weighted randomness, etc.), but without actually being able to get something tangible for the money you put in it.

It would be like, say drinking, and going directly from the flashiness of mixing cocktails, presentation of the drinks with all their decorations, directly to the hang-over, without the actual alcohol buzz.
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Pretty much.
 
Strings

Strings

Member
Oct 27, 2017
31,381
Al3x1s said:
If you narrow it down so much, that the rewards can't be cashed out, don't you open the door to how that stuff is done in Japan where you just get worthless "balls" or whatever out of gambling but can then go to any number of stores willing to take the balls off you for money or something along those lines? I might be talking out of my ass here, I've not exactly researched it, I think I read something along those lines in the past.
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That's how pachinko works. You win a ball that you trade for an item, that you then take to what is technically a separate establishment that will pay you for said random item.

A few years ago, one my friends won a token that got him a nasty looking cake thing... He had no idea what was happening until an employee lead him next door and they 'bought' the cake from him. THIS IS NOT GAMBLING. IT IS VERY DIFFERENT. COMPLETELY. DIFFERENT.
 
KentP

KentP

Member
Oct 28, 2017
703
Much worse than gambling then... And even regular gambling culture tends towards the morally bankrupt, so that's saying something.

You put something of value in, you have a chance of walking away with something of value

Just because loot box rewards don't seem 'of value' to the government, doesn't mean its not of value to anyone

This is a ridiculous ruling
 
OP
OP
Nirolak

Nirolak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,660
2Blackcats said:
Gobshites

We'll follow other countries lead though.
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So far...

Rulings/investigations ending in "Not Gambling":
- UK
- France
- Germany
- New Zealand
- Denmark
- Ireland

Found as "Gambling":
- Belgium

Mixed Result:
- Hawaii: Did a lot of grandstanding, gutted bill in state legislature to change it to something entirely unrelated, has never talked about it again
- Netherlands: Only gambling if you can cash out for cash or cash equivalents like Steam Money, so Valve's games got hit and nothing else
- Washington State: Actually has a tangential issue where they said it's illegal to get things that let you keep playing the game (like coins in a casino game) from a random chance game like Slots, but almost no games do this except literal casino games
- Australia: Said similar to gambling, seemingly opted to do nothing, we'll see how this evolves

Still Investigating:
- Sweden
 
Son Lamar

Son Lamar

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,238
Alabama
Al3x1s said:
So if I'm playing an RPG with any number of randomly generated elements like chests and enemy drops I'm gambling and the software is immoral and should be illegal or is that okay because there's no purchase for each chest and enemy drop and instead I paid the $60 or whatever up front, but then got addicted from all that stuff and was willing to buy the DLC, expansions and sequels to satisfy my thirst? And aren't all games basically made to be addictive anyway to keep you playing? Nobody wants a boring game, if every game was boring there'd be no industry left. Etc. Lol. Need better definitions.
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This is such a weird argument to make? This clearly speaking on microtransactions and its addictive nature if it's all available say diablo all lot drops are random but you're not giving money effectively not gambling you're simply playing for a drop on something you outright own a one time purchase vs multiply purchases but regardless clearly your argon has no context and seems more like a semantics thing to argue for that simply fact you can
 

UnderNewOwnership

Member
Dec 4, 2017
3,097
Al3x1s said:
If you narrow it down so much, that the rewards can't be cashed out, don't you open the door to how that stuff is done in Japan where you just get worthless "balls" or whatever out of gambling but can then go to any number of stores willing to take the balls off you for money or something along those lines? I might be talking out of my ass here, I've not exactly researched it, I think I read something along those lines in the past.
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The parlour offers you either actual goods (ranging from 7-11 vouchers and ballpoint pens, all the way to actual electronics, or even bicycles) for your balls, so you do get real prizes. Though most often you get a silver or gold token which you can then sell for cash at a small shop that's coincidentally located right next to the pachinko parlour.

Al3x1s said:
So if I'm playing an RPG with any number of randomly generated elements like chests and enemy drops I'm gambling and the software is immoral and should be illegal or is that okay because there's no purchase for each chest and enemy drop and instead I paid the $60 or whatever up front, but then got addicted from all that stuff and was willing to buy the DLC, expansions and sequels to satisfy my thirst? And aren't all games basically made to be addictive anyway to keep you playing? Nobody wants a boring game, if every game was boring there'd be no industry left. Etc.
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The randomness isn't the issue. Heck, random grind has been a staple of Japanese games ever since the SNES era. The problem is when a) you combine the randomness of 'prizes' with unlimited repeatable purchases using actual cashmoney; b) the randomness isn't actually random, but controlled by the 'house' (in this case, the game's publisher).
Paying upfront for content, even nickel-and-diming for crap DLC isn't an issue, since you are always shown what you get (be it a dumb piece of cosmetic junk, or an extra map, or a language pack, or blood spurts). If the DLC in question were a 20-pack of lootboxes, yes, that would constitute worse-gambling (my invented term). And, as Jim Sterling has repeated over and over again, money-based microtransactions in full priced games is just taking the fucking piss.
 
2Blackcats

2Blackcats

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,054
Nirolak said:
So far...

Rulings/investigations ending in "Not Gambling":
- UK
- France
- Germany
- New Zealand
- Denmark
- Ireland

Found as "Gambling":
- Belgium

Mixed Result:
- Hawaii: Did a lot of grandstanding, gutted bill in state legislature to change it to something entirely unrelated, has never talked about it again
- Netherlands: Only gambling if you can cash out for cash or cash equivalents like Steam Money, so Valve's games got hit and nothing else
- Washington State: Actually has a tangential issue where they said it's illegal to get things that let you keep playing the game (like coins in a casino game) from a random chance game like Slots, but almost no games do this except literal casino games
- Australia: Said similar to gambling, seemingly opted to do nothing, we'll see how this evolves

Still Investigating:
- Sweden
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Click to shrink...

Wow.

Thanks for that rather depressing summary

Are the EU itself doing any investigations or responsible in any way?
 
gofreak

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,734
On the thought that this is a play to attract business/companies to set up in Ireland - wouldn't local laws apply in the other country you're selling your game in regardless?

Anyway, I'd love to see stricter laws here with regard to gambling in general.
 
Thraktor

Thraktor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
570
A couple of clarifications to be made here:

  1. This isn't a court ruling or government policy position, it's a legal opinion that the Department of Justice doesn't have the authority to regulate lootboxes based on current gambling legislation in Ireland (some of which dates back to 1931).
  2. That legislation is likely to change substantially within the coming months.
For reference, see the following quote from the original article in Irish Legal News:

The Government is currently pursuing a major overhaul of gambling law, which will include the establishment of an independent regulatory authority for the gambling industry.
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Of course, there's no particular guarantee that lootboxes will be covered by the new legislation, but it's entirely possible given the Irish government signed the GREF declaration.
 
funky

funky

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,527
It's not gambling.

It's worse.


It's the similar bullshit with no actual reward.


Trying to comparing it 1 to 1 to gambling is a bad idea that publishers probably want to happen because they know they can win that argument
 
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