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Is Hollow Knight a masterpiece?
- Thread starter Stuart Gipp
- Start date
It is for me and that's all that really matters. Easily fits into my list of all time greatest games.
An all time great for sure.
Frankly, the only genuine negative I can give it is that it's too much of a good thing. The game is just so damn big, that despite how good it was, i was ready for it to be over before the end.
Not the worst fault to have, and even so, I'm there day1 for the upcoming sequel.
Frankly, the only genuine negative I can give it is that it's too much of a good thing. The game is just so damn big, that despite how good it was, i was ready for it to be over before the end.
Not the worst fault to have, and even so, I'm there day1 for the upcoming sequel.
It's an awful metroidvania. The levels are too large and traversal isn't fun for most of the game, going back through areas you already been through is awful which is a red flag for a metroidvania. Hope they fix that up in the second one with more condensed levels(traversal already looks better).
That's kind of a strange reason to drop one of the best games ever made. I've played the game twice and I think I can count on one hand the number of times I lost some currency from the system — currency which isn't hugely important anyway.
I think it's the best game I've ever played. Masterpiece feels like an apt descriptor.
With most games, the longer I play them, the more apparent their flaws become, especially with single player games. With Hollow Knight, that still hasn't happened, even after doing just about everything the game has to offer.
With most games, the longer I play them, the more apparent their flaws become, especially with single player games. With Hollow Knight, that still hasn't happened, even after doing just about everything the game has to offer.
I don't really like Metroidvania games, but I love it anyway. To the point where things I generally dislike about the genre I either appreciated here because they were done so well or I just didn't mind. Isn't that part of a definition of a masterpiece? I would say so.
It's my favorite game of all time at this point. The boss fights are my least favorite thing about it though, although once I finally toppled the bosses, I absolutely felt the thrill of victory. But everything else about the game just clicked with me. I LOVED exploring the world and coming across new places, characters, mechanics, secrets, enemies, etc. It was all just so damn good. It's ruined the Metroidvania genre for me. I tried going back and playing other Metroidvanias that I liked and I just couldn't get into them in the same way and I've tried playing some of the newer Metroidvanias that I haven't played through before and it's the same deal, haha. I'm really looking forward to Silksong mainly to keep scratching that itch.
It depends on the definition I suppose, but I barely found Ori to be a metroidvania since there's barely any exploration required. It's a very linear experience. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, but it doesn't at all scratch the same itch as Hollow Knight does.
Yes. Top of the genre for me.
My thoughts exactly. I played 35 hours with just a 60% complete. It was enough. I feel great
My thoughts exactly. I played 35 hours with just a 60% complete. It was enough. I feel great
It is definitely a masterpiece. The only knock I really have against it is the back and forth and back and forth traversal got to be a lot. It was almost as bad as Harmony of Dissonance in that regard, which I also just replayed last week.
That flaw aside, it's best the genre has to offer, right up there with Aria of Sorrow.
I loved Ori as well, but I put it one notch below Hollow Knight. Ori had far superior traversal, but the world of Hollow Knight was in another league. I wouldn't blame anybody for considering Ori to be better than Hollow Knight. It was a joy to play, mechanically.
That flaw aside, it's best the genre has to offer, right up there with Aria of Sorrow.
I loved Ori as well, but I put it one notch below Hollow Knight. Ori had far superior traversal, but the world of Hollow Knight was in another league. I wouldn't blame anybody for considering Ori to be better than Hollow Knight. It was a joy to play, mechanically.
The 'invisible hand' point is a good one though. Super Metroid was a masterclass of this. It didn't have much in the way of story but you did feel like you had a few reasons to move on:
1. Baby Metroid
2. Get me off this planet pls
Hollow Knight lacks those reasons and makes the early hours tough to stick to. It's an excellent game overall but the pacing prevents it from being a 'masterpiece' in my opinion.
Can't wait for the sequel though.
Ori is barely a metroidvania. Its movement, visuals, and set-pieces are amazing, but it feels more like a precision platformer that happens to have an interconnected map. The upgrading feels completely extraneous, like the only reason is because games like that have upgrades, not because it makes sense for Ori. As a metroidvania, it pales in comparison to Hollow Knight's world design, gameplay depth, story, characters, and so on
Yeah this is what's stopping me from considering it a "masterpiece". Too many QOL things that were sacrificed in the name of "difficulty" just made it a lesser game, IMO.
Yes, absolutely. When I played it on Switch it became my GotY 2017 retroactively. The only thing I don't like is that Godmaster is waaaaaaay too hard for something that gives extra, possibly canon, endings. Still struggling to beat the third pantheon lol.
While I enjoy the hell out of Hollow Knight, it's biggest flaw is the way the map system works. There's no reason why you couldn't have players fill in the map until they buy it from Cornifer. It's just tedious and serves to get them lost.
I'd argue otherwise. It makes you more attentive and gain a better mental map of the environment. It makes you pay attention to room layouts and landmarks and central areas as you explore.
But what if serving to get them lost is the whole point? I think it's a great compromise between having no map at all like Dark Souls (which is great in 3D but Salt & Sanctuary shows is pretty miserable in 2D) and just having your eyes glued to the map the whole time while you explore instead of taking in the world.
In Hollow Knight, you get tastes of exploring blind like when you go into a new area or when you stray far into uncharted territories without finding a bench, but then you claim that territory as your own after the initial push and it becomes more familiar and easy to navigate.
I actually thought this system was genius. Made me more engaged in the world.
No. Thought it was pretty mediocre to be honest. As a person that loves both Metroidvanias and Souls games I got bored with it about halfway through. I do need to go back and play it again but I doubt my view of it being a masterpiece would be changed.
I always feel a bit of shock when someone mentions SaS didn't have a map because I completely forget it didn't have a map. It's a testament to how well put together that game is that I didn't really feel like I needed one.
I bought the Switch version when it came out last June, but only playing it now because the lack of direction was unappealing. Plus, I'm a Destiny addict...
But with the announcement of Silksong, I've come back and I'm glad I did. I now understand why the story and guidance is so minimal. I've learned to appreciate it. The point is to get lost. Now that I realize that, I'm love with this game.
One of my biggest problems is that the death mechanic punishes the player by making traversal more tedious. If you die a lot, you'll almost never have enough geo to unlock stag stations. So whenever you find one, it becomes 10 minutes of running around grinding geo from shitty low level grunts. I'm pretty bad at the game, so this happens to me every time. At first I just ignored the stag stations because of this, but quickly learned how much backtracking was involved and it makes the game a slog for me. If I was great at the game, this probably wouldn't be much of an issue, but instead of forcing players to get better at the game due to lack of upgrades and purchasing power, the game forces me to slowly traverse through the same areas over and over and over again, or else farm geo (which sucks). I would never even be excited to beat bosses or big enemies because I always knew whatever geo I acquired would be out the window almost immediately.
I'm about 4-5 hours in. I shelved it for a while di to other games and the map system turned me off but now that I'm back to playing it it's pretty darn good.
The soundtrack is amazing so far, I love how clean and crisp the game looks and plays, it's challenging but nothing crazy (so far) and I'm going to go play it right now as I finish this post ;)
The soundtrack is amazing so far, I love how clean and crisp the game looks and plays, it's challenging but nothing crazy (so far) and I'm going to go play it right now as I finish this post ;)
No. Not to say it's bad, it's actually a great game with great $$ for value ratio. But it isn't a masterpiece to me. I didn't find it completely memorable after I beat it. It was kind of a slog at certain points, it could use improvement on keeping the player engaged. Might be because the environments weren't varied enough but it really was just general pacing that rubbed me wrong at times. I didn't WANT to explore the game and keep pumping through it. There wasn't enough inventive for me and I just lost engagement a few times. Took me a few times of stopping and going back to it whereas most games I consider masterpieces I wanted to never stop playing!
I think it's a masterful indie game but I don't think it stands up to the masterful AAA games. Not that it has too. From a game design standpoint it could use some quality of life enhancements, pacing enhancements, environment enhancements, and more interesting things sprinkled throughout the games world.
I think it's a masterful indie game but I don't think it stands up to the masterful AAA games. Not that it has too. From a game design standpoint it could use some quality of life enhancements, pacing enhancements, environment enhancements, and more interesting things sprinkled throughout the games world.
Nah. It's a very respectable 7-8 game but no masterpiece. As a launch... $15(?) game though, the value you get out of it almost unrivaled.
Edit: Just to hammer this point home, if I had been forced to pay $40, $50 for this game, I would have still felt satisfied for the amount and quality of the content the game provides.
Edit: Just to hammer this point home, if I had been forced to pay $40, $50 for this game, I would have still felt satisfied for the amount and quality of the content the game provides.
Do you use the bank much? One of the biggest player-friendly design decisions is giving an easy to access bank to store geo so you can save it up without risking it. It won't necessarily help when you're out exploring and you find a new stag station (since you need to use the stag stations to get there) but it should definitely keep you from losing all the boss geo over and over.
Masterpiece?
Thats quite the hyperbole. I think its an amazing game but to be a masterpiece it has to be genre defining and I don't think its as good as CSOTN. I think its the best Metroidvania since Symphony but lets not get crazy here
Thats quite the hyperbole. I think its an amazing game but to be a masterpiece it has to be genre defining and I don't think its as good as CSOTN. I think its the best Metroidvania since Symphony but lets not get crazy here
Need some time to sink my teeth deep in this one.
I played 2 straight hours of the game and I'm in awe with the presentation and mechanics!
Really it seems like the current crown for indie excellence should be given to this and CrossCode, which is even more impressive in retrospect.
I played 2 straight hours of the game and I'm in awe with the presentation and mechanics!
Really it seems like the current crown for indie excellence should be given to this and CrossCode, which is even more impressive in retrospect.
Easily.
I love the map system, getting lost and feeling like you're out of your depth is amazing.
I love the map system, getting lost and feeling like you're out of your depth is amazing.
Order of Ecclesia took that crown imo. I still haven't seen anything since that's quite topped it. The level format of the game is different from Symphony though, so I can understand purists not being totally onboard.
OP
OP
Honestly, so far I prefer it to any Metroid. I never liked Symphony of the Night much (didn't play it at the time, missed the boat) but this is easily my favourite of its genre so far. I'm not done so it might start sucking.
No. A huge flaw in the game for me is the poorly placed checkpoints, and the fact that you lose all of your currency when you die and have to track back to your corpse to retrieve it. That just punishes the player for no good reason and you waste a lot of time retreating through the same areas for minutes at a time because of this flaw. It really sucks when you are trying to learn a bosses attack pattern and think of the strategy, only to be punished each time with traversing back to try again. The difficulty curve is also a bit too steep during the beginning before you get the dash.
The map system sucks too. And there's a weird sense of a lack of motivation to push forward. It's like your exploring these gorgeous environments, but the narrative isn't interesting enough to make it all click.
It's a great game, but what Hollow Knight does from a gameplay perspective has been done before and executed better.
The map system sucks too. And there's a weird sense of a lack of motivation to push forward. It's like your exploring these gorgeous environments, but the narrative isn't interesting enough to make it all click.
It's a great game, but what Hollow Knight does from a gameplay perspective has been done before and executed better.
It's the best Metroid style game since Super Metroid, which is one of the best games of all time. It's one of the best games of all time.
I've played a lot of Metroidvanias as it's my favorite genre and replayed the ones I really like quite few times as well and I consider Hollow Knight the best of them so I'd definitely say so.
It is in my book. It's a game that has a clear aim and intention, and nails it on all fronts. From visuals, to soundtrack, to gameplay, and even it's story. Hollow Knight was a world that engrossed me completely. It's up there with the greatest of it's genre.