Is Hollow Knight a masterpiece?

[MegaManTrigger]

I'd argue otherwise. It makes you more attentive and gain a better mental map of the environment. It makes you pay attention to room layouts and landmarks and central areas as you explore.

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The problem with that is that the world is pretty bland in terms of colour (and I'm not saying variety is the problem, Greenpath looks nothing like Dirtmouth looks nothing like Crystal Peaks, etc), everything looks dark and surrounded with black shadows. So when you're exploring around, it's pretty easy to lose the "mental map" because of how similar everything looks within an area.

But what if serving to get them lost is the whole point? I think it's a great compromise between having no map at all like Dark Souls (which is great in 3D but Salt & Sanctuary shows is pretty miserable in 2D) and just having your eyes glued to the map the whole time while you explore instead of taking in the world.

In Hollow Knight, you get tastes of exploring blind like when you go into a new area or when you stray far into uncharted territories without finding a bench, but then you claim that territory as your own after the initial push and it becomes more familiar and easy to navigate.

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I don't think you need to glue your eyes in on the map. The advantage of having a map early is to track where you are and where the open gaps are that you need to explore. Maybe this is how I got used with metroidvanias, but it was a rough transition when I first started the game.

 

[iksenpets]

It's really good. I need to go back and finish it here soon. I put it down for a bit when all the end-of-year games started hitting and haven't gotten back to it yet.

 

[HStallion]

The 'invisible hand' point is a good one though. Super Metroid was a masterclass of this. It didn't have much in the way of story but you did feel like you had a few reasons to move on:
1. Baby Metroid
2. Get me off this planet pls

Hollow Knight lacks those reasons and makes the early hours tough to stick to. It's an excellent game overall but the pacing prevents it from being a 'masterpiece' in my opinion.

Can't wait for the sequel though.

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I feel the game gives you some things to shoot for fairly early on, within the first area. Like most of these games though I feel the thing driving you in these games it the exploration of the unknown. That's like the biggest drive is to see what comes next, what it gives you and what you can do now that you've improved your character in some minor but still very significant manner.

 

[AETOS]

I consider it a 10/10 game so yes, it absolutely is a masterpiece.

 

[TYRANITARR]

I don't understand the discussion here, it's an obvious yes.

This is like asking: Is Stardew Valley and Shovel Knight masterpieces? Of course they are. They aren't for everyone, of course, but they've objectively the very best of the genre.

 

[storophanthus]

Yes

 

[MazeHaze]

Do you use the bank much? One of the biggest player-friendly design decisions is giving an easy to access bank to store geo so you can save it up without risking it. It won't necessarily help when you're out exploring and you find a new stag station (since you need to use the stag stations to get there) but it should definitely keep you from losing all the boss geo over and over.

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No I don't because

Spoiler

the bank ends up being a scam and if you have money in there the banker steals all of it and leaves

 

[JaseMath]

Yes.

No I don't because

Spoiler

the bank ends up being a scam and if you have money in there the banker steals all of it and leaves

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Spoiler

You can find her later and get much of it back.

 

[Mathieran]

I liked it a lot but I did have some issues with it that prevent it from becoming a masterpiece to me.

Mostly the difficulty spikes. I struggled with a couple bosses way more than I care to, and then to get the best ending you have to get through a difficult boss rush. I ended up just looking it up on YouTube.

But exploring, music, locomotion, lore, and art were all really great.

 

[Dodongo]

About 50 hours in, and I finally have most things completed.

It's a hell of a game, dude. Easily a masterpiece of the genre.

 

[ckareset]

I don't understand the discussion here, it's an obvious yes.

This is like asking: Is Stardew Valley and Shovel Knight masterpieces? Of course they are. They aren't for everyone, of course, but they've objectively the very best of the genre.

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??? What genre is that

 

[Plumpman]

I keep hearing its super good, and I bought it on Switch.
I only played for about an hour and haven't picked it up since.
Not a knock on the game, I think these types of games don't grip me right away.
I have to go back and dive into it.

 

[Odeko]

No I don't because

Spoiler

the bank ends up being a scam and if you have money in there the banker steals all of it and leaves

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Only if you store more than 2500 geo. Up until then it's totally safe.

 

[Kyra]

Only if you store more than 2500 geo. Up until then it's totally safe.

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Spoiler

It's safe even afterwards >:)

 

[MazeHaze]

I don't understand the discussion here, it's an obvious yes.

This is like asking: Is Stardew Valley and Shovel Knight masterpieces? Of course they are. They aren't for everyone, of course, but they've objectively the very best of the genre.

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Objectively? I don't think so. I like Hollow Knight quite a bit, but it's a solid 7 or 8 imo.

 

[GameShrink]

It's okay. I don't think it touches Symphony of the Night, Aria of Sorrow or Super Metroid. I'd also probably put it below Salt and Sanctuary, to throw another contemporary game into the mix.

I still beat everything in HK, but I wanted more RPG elements/leveling. Also the map system sucked.

 

[theotherMittens]

Curious, did the people claiming it's the best in the genre also play Ori? I have both, and while I think Hollow Knight is pretty good, Ori blew me away. In my opinion, Ori was the much more enjoyable experience.

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I don't have an Xbox or a Windows computer so I can't play Ori and it makes me saaaad.

 

[Kyuur]

Yes. I could nitpick but it's with the best of the genre. Certainly better than any Castlevania game.

 

[Yog-Sothoth]

I've played around 15hours and as you say, it there is prettt much nothing it doesn't do right but for some reason it still hasn't hooked me to go back. It's been a week and I haven't gone back to it. I wish it grabbed me the way other games have.

I'm a huge fan of SOTN and this is like a perfect metroidvania with some challenging platforming on top of that. So idk why I'm not addicted to this yet.

 

[MazeHaze]

Yes. I could be nitpick but it's with the best of the genre. Certainly better than any Castlevania game.

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Nah no way. Aria of Sorrow stomps all over HK imo.

 

[Odeko]

Curious, did the people claiming it's the best in the genre also play Ori? I have both, and while I think Hollow Knight is pretty good, Ori blew me away. In my opinion, Ori was the much more enjoyable experience.

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I've played both, along with basically ever Metroid game, Igavania, and other popular indie Metroidvania and Hollow Knight is definitely my favorite. The only one that comes close is Aria of Sorrow, but even it can't compete with how massive and varied Hollow Knight is.

Ori is incredible from an audio-visual standpoint, but I found the actual metroidvania aspects merely serviceable. They work well, but none of it really stood out to me or stuck with me like HK did. Plus my favorite part of Hollow Knight is the bosses, and Ori's combat is pretty lame.

 

[Oaklight]

Hollow Knight is certainly a great game and one of the finest of its genre, but it has enough flaws to hold it back from reaching the peaks of the genre and being a true masterpiece in my opinion. To be honest, if Hollow Knight had a traditional map system, had a leveling up system like an Igavania game, had better pacing, and perhaps if the art style had maybe 5-10% more variety, then I probably would consider it a masterpiece.

Those are just my personal nitpicks though and the universal praise this game is getting us an obvious indicator that this game resonated incredibly well with so many people and clearly did many things right. I am glad that this genre is getting the love it deserves thanks to the massive success of Hollow Knight, a mere indie game no less. It is great that a new generation has fallen in love with the genre as I did with the classic Metroidvanias, and for that I am grateful for Hollow Knights existence.

 

[Torpedo Vegas]

I wasn't blown away by it. It was just a decent game. I didn't like the platforming. I got tired of there being enemies on narrow platforms that when you attacked them it would shove you back off of them.

 

[lord_of_flood]

No. It feels generally good to play but the map system and navigation in general really hold it back. Making navigation so open-ended only works properly when the player has all the tools they need to traverse the environments (ala BotW), so it works pretty poorly in the early game because Hollow Knight generally lacks the "invisible hand" guiding them to the next traversal tool they need.

Also, navigating into new areas always sucks since you have to wander around the area hoping you find the map guy, which is incredibly tedious since you could end up going the complete wrong way trying to find him. It ends up feeling like a waste of time, and I'd rather be able to just have a map that I could fill in as I go.

QOL improvements to the map system and to navigation in general would have gone a long, long way to improving the game. Having immediate access to a map that the player could fill in as they wandered (aka a standard feature in basically every other good Metroidvania game) and a more structured beginning (at least until the player got the basic navigational tools they need) would have vastly improved Hollow Knight.

 

[TransEuropaExpress]

I really enjoyed it for about 15 hours and everything after devolved further and further into a somewhat frustrating semi-slog for me.

I just couldn't help but feel it was entirely too huge for a game of its nature and was only compounded by having obnoxiously limited fast-travel options. The last 10 hours I sank into the game felt like at least 50%+ endless backtracking repetition.

I wishbit could've been tighter and more succinct overall. That combined with the annoying checkpoint system and massive difficulty spikes literally exhausted me at one point and I dropped it after trying to force myself to finish it. I always got the sense there were a lot of 'Souls...but HARDER LOL' decisions at work and it just didn't work for me here.

If I had to rate it, I'd give it a 7/10 for the obvious talent and great aspects it does have but I'm hoping for a much more focused and tight sequel.

 

[Deleted member 17210]

It's the most over-hyped game on this site. I mostly enjoyed it and would say it's above average for its genre but it drags on way too long.

 

[Pharaun]

Not even close for a variety of reasons that have been covered by others.

In short the map system sucks, it takes far too long to get even mildly interesting, traversal stays a chore the entire game, it's easily twice as long as it should be, the art style does nothing for me, severe lack of weapon variety, checkpoints are spaced out way too far apart, takes too many design ques from Dark Souls and not enough from its 2d predecessors, difficulty level is off-putting...

 

[GameAddict411]

Yes it's a masterpiece. People who are complaining about the map system didn't get the point of the game. It was intentional for you to get lost. That's the point of the game. It feels great to be able to find the map guy and hear him signing in every new location.

 

[Natiko]

I actually started playing it yesterday for the first time. It didn't immediately grab me, and I can already tell the map system is going to annoy me. We'll see how it develops.

 

[Odeko]

Yes it's a masterpiece. People who are complaining about the map system didn't get the point of the game. It was intentional for you to get lost. That's the point of the game. It feels great to be able to find the map guy and hear him signing in every new location.

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I do love the wide variety of variations on "it's not good because it's too hard," as if in order for a game to be good it has to be accessible to everyone.

Moby Dick is hard to read too, that doesn't preclude it from being a masterpiece.

 

[Kyra]

I don't understand what people's problem with the map system is.. Other than having to find cornifer to sell you the map it functions like any other map. The actual biggest problem with the map is the gaps are too small and i gotta squint to if some hallways are unexplored.

 

[marc^o^]

It gets a big yes from me. Masterpiece. Hollow Knight became an obsession for dozens of hours, I loved every minute of it.

 

[Techno]

I think I prefer Ori, but yes this game is up there too.

 

[Klotera]

I really enjoyed it and put it pretty high on my top 2017 games list. However, I'd definitely stop short of calling it a masterpiece. Just some annoyances that hold it back.

As many have mentioned, the mapping system is frustrating. I don't really buy the "encouraging exploration" aspect or whatever. I don't need a lack of map to be motivated to explore. It's crazy to that you have to use a charm for as basic of a map feature as current location. I also don't like that the map is filled in as big chunks, rather than smaller increments.

I also didn't like how far they often keep save spots from boss battles. I'm clearly able to make it to the boss, why waste my time. Some like the idea of being "punished" for dying, but I'm not of that mindset.

Still, great atmosphere, well designed world, solid combat and enemy design. But, I definitely don't put it above staples of the genre like SotN or Super Metroid. I'd even put some of the newer metroidvanias, such as Axiom Verge, above it.

 

[Yog-Sothoth]

Yeah, I think the map system is what keeps me from going back. It doesn't make sense that I can't update the map with the areas I've already visited until I buy it from Cornifer.
Everytime I visit a new area it's a little stressing because all I can think of is finding Cornifer.

People mention Dark Souls but in DS case every turn and path leads you to something important, memorable or impressive. Be it an NPC, boss, item, bonfire, shortcut, etc. And the levels are designed in such a way that they are visually unique so through exploration you learn them. In HK's case every level and every pathway looks samey to me and sometimes leads me nowhere or takes me back to a place I've already been before, but instead of feeling like a shortcut (which it isn't most of the times) it just makes me feel like I'm going in circles. There's a reason people hate the Demon Ruins in DS, everything looks the same.

Hollow Knight is also too big for its own good in my experience. 15 hours in I feel like I've barely scratched the surface.

Idk maybe I just went in with the wrong mindset.

 

[Alek]

Lost my save data in the PS cloud, not sure what happened, couldn't bring myself to play 20 hours again to get back to where I was. I do think it's a fantastic game though.

I think the only caveat is that it's a little unintuitive where to go at times.

I also agree with the sentiment that the checkpoints are too far from bosses. It's often tedious to run back to them.

 

[i'm not a rob0t]

no.

 

[Wamb0wneD]

Curious, did the people claiming it's the best in the genre also play Ori? I have both, and while I think Hollow Knight is pretty good, Ori blew me away. In my opinion, Ori was the much more enjoyable experience.

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Ori is absolutely beautiful, but the combat blows really hard and the leveldesign isn't on par with Hollow Knight at all. I also think it peaked with the first escape sequence and kind of fell off a bit after that.

I've played both, along with basically ever Metroid game, Igavania, and other popular indie Metroidvania and Hollow Knight is definitely my favorite. The only one that comes close is Aria of Sorrow, but even it can't compete with how massive and varied Hollow Knight is.

Ori is incredible from an audio-visual standpoint, but I found the actual metroidvania aspects merely serviceable. They work well, but none of it really stood out to me or stuck with me like HK did. Plus my favorite part of Hollow Knight is the bosses, and Ori's combat is pretty lame.

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Yeah, agreed with everything here.

 

[GameAddict411]

I do love the wide variety of variations on "it's not good because it's too hard," as if in order for a game to be good it has to be accessible to everyone.

Moby Dick is hard to read too, that doesn't preclude it from being a masterpiece.

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I wouldn't even call it hard in case of Hollow Knight map system. It just needs a bit of a patience, but also a drive to explore.

edit: People are getting used to hand holding to the point where it's normal these days. I played some PS1 games recently, and it was strange to see how much the game expects you to learn on your own. Now games are so easy and accessible they are kinda boring in some sense.

 

[Deleted member 8791]

I keep hearing its super good, and I bought it on Switch.
I only played for about an hour and haven't picked it up since.
Not a knock on the game, I think these types of games don't grip me right away.
I have to go back and dive into it.

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I was lukewarm about it 5 hours in but suddenly it all clicked and I went on to 100% it and spend 50h+ on it.

 

[Alric]

I agree as someone who bought it a month ago and grew up with castlevania and metroid.

 

[theotherMittens]

Oh I forgot the one other issue I have with this game, which is sound cues during boss fights. The sounds bosses make when they attack don't seem to be tied to what attack they're doing, which screws me up pretty often. It's especially noticeable in Hornet's fights where she yells very distinctly different words, and I think "oh she's doing this" but she does that instead.

 

[Bruceleeroy]

It has better leveldesign and bosses though.

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It has amazing level design art, music and everything but it doesn't beat SOTN in several very key ways.

1) Alucard is one of the greatest protagonists of all time
2) There is a sense of discovery and foreboding in the castle the whole time you're playing through the game that just has this way of transporting you.
3) Probably one of the greatest soundtracks of any game ever
4) Best combat especially when you realize how deep it is with unlocking shield abilities and sword stances.
5) The familiars and how much entertainment and fun in the combat they bring
6) Each level or area that you enter is so perfectly juxtaposed to the one before it. Some give you so much dread and others give you a false sense of security.

Some games have better mechanics but nothing is still the total package to me like SOTN is.

Hollow Knight is excellent though.

 

[Euler]

Yes.

Spoiler

You can find her later and get much of it back.

Click to shrink...

Spoiler

you get more back than what you put it, so it's just a good choice to let her "scam" you

 

[SalvaPot]

Yes.

I didn't 100% it but yes.

 

[KLoWn]

100% yes.

 

[Philippo]

Absoluteyl. Together with Bloodborne and GoW they are the only games from this gen i can blindly call masterpieces.

 

[Turkoop]

I'm very early into the game, played ~2 hours. Finished one boss (i think?)
Got any tips?

 

[Shadow_FFVI]

Only if you take into consideration that it's made by an indie studio. Otherwise, I have plenty of problems with the game. It's good though.

 

[Lady Gaia]

So long as you aren't forced to endure it with JoyCons? Absolutely. If I could trade my Switch release in for a PS4 version I'd do it in a heartbeat.