Is it ethically wrong to buy a new console/upgrade PC knowing that there's a possibility of slave labour being used?

[Rosenkrantz]

To preface, I don't want to guilt shame anyone. Moreover, there's a question if it's even possible to avoid using products made in China considering how much of consumer electronics is made there. So the thread is more about your personal feelings regarding the situation.

In a past year we all heard the news about concentration camps operating in China. The same news also told stories of countless companies knowingly or unknowingly using the labour from these camps to manufacture their product ranging from clothes to tech.

With that knowledge in mind, do you have any reservations or even moral dilemma about investing in the next gen consoles or upgrading parts in your PC? Do you think there's an ethical problem in consuming a product that is possibly made by using a slave labour?

 

[themuzzotheory]

Is ethical consumption possible under capitalism? No.

 

[Cmc]

There is an ethical problem buying any sort of technology, if you really think about it. From conflict minerals in chips, to terrible labour conditions in factories. This isn't specific to gaming and/or PC parts

 

[Ahti]

It`s absolutely ethically wrong. Do I care? No. Because I´m ignorant like most people when it comes to entertainment and luxury goods.

 

[Exist 2 Inspire]

Of course it is but as usual most people don't really give a damn.

 

[My Blue Heaven]

Most PC components and electronic crystals in general are made using some form of exploited labor which yes includes slave labor. Should people think about this instead of mindlessly consuming? Yes.

Should we feel guilty? That's more complicated and probably not a discussion that many are willing to have on an enthusiast forum involving electronics.

 

[Cmc]

Is ethical consumption possible under capitalism? No.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, first reply nailed it

 

[SixelAlexiS]

If you would to be the most ethical person you should probably live in a cave. It is what it is.

 

[EarlGreyHot]

Well, yeah, but it's impossible to avoid.

Same goes for the clothing we wear and the food we consume. That's capitalism. Go live in the woods if you really don't want to have a part in it.

 

[Deleted member 42641]

 

[3bdelilah]

All things you buy are made through either directly or indirectly exploited labour, which also includes actual slave labour. And like others have already mentioned, ethical consumption under capitalism is impossible. Most, if not all, of us live under an economic system where it forces us to spend money on products that involve exploitation, just look at food, housing, and clothing. You can help by becoming more class conscious, read more on capitalism and alternative economic systems, and talk to other people about it. But until we live under that alternative economic system, you can't really avoid it.

 

[Jonnax]

Yes. It's ethically wrong.
Have a read of this report:

Uyghurs for sale

www.aspi.org.au

China is basically enslaving people and selling them as slave labour to factories in a reeducation programme

But here's the thing. This isn't acceptable.
It's bad press for a company to be engaged in slave labour.

There are two avenues: Consumer outrage and Government intervention.
You can write to your representative if you think that might raise the issue or make a difference.
You can be loud on social media about it to stigmatise the company, or complain directly to them as well

But looking at the replies in this thread everyone is saying:
"OH THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS!!! I WANT MY SLAVE LABOUR GOODS!"

Looks like you all live in Omelas and proud of it.

Is ethical consumption possible under capitalism? No.

Click to shrink...

What does this even mean?
To me it sounds like the most stupid trite phrase that amounts to:

"Should my electronics be made by slave labour or by people paid a decent wage?"
"They are the same thing"

 

[dude]

Click to shrink...

I really wish people didn't took this phrase as a free pass to avoid all personal responsibility.
Yes, it's unethical, but there's a limit to how ethical consumerism under capitalism can be - which makes it difficult. In short, you need to make your choices and see how and where you can reduce. Personally, I try not to buy too many gadgets or consoles and to make sure I also donate and stay active in relevant causes to offset it.
There' no black and white answers.

BTW, this is why I think devs should actively try and support as many platforms, inclusing older platforms, as they can. I hope some will get into fights with Sony/MS/Nintendo about it. We should help people stay with the hardware they already have rather than push to upgrade every X years. We need, as the whole industry and fanbase, work to decrease consumerism - Both for ethical reasons and environmental reasons.

All things you buy are made through either directly or indirectly exploited labour, which also includes actual slave labour. And like others have already mentioned, ethical consumption under capitalism is impossible. Most, if not all, of us live under an economic system where it forces us to spend money on products that involve exploitation, just look at food, housing, and clothing. You can help by becoming more class conscious, read more on capitalism and alternative economic systems, and talk to other people about it. But until we live under that alternative economic system, you can't really avoid it.

Click to shrink...

"Can't avoid it entirely" != "you are free from any personal responsibility".

 

[themuzzotheory]

What does this even mean?
To me it sounds like the most stupid trite phrase that amounts to:

"Should my electronics be made by slave labour or by people paid a decent wage?"
"They are the same thing"

Click to shrink...

It means exactly that, the person on the left cannot on his own change the economic system, and the right person is exactly the sort of attitude you're giving out.

But here's the thing. This isn't acceptable.
It's bad press for a company to be engaged in slave labour.

There are two avenues: Consumer outrage and Government intervention.
You can write to your representative if you think that might raise the issue or make a difference.
You can be loud on social media about it to stigmatise the company, or complain directly to them as well

But looking at the replies in this thread everyone is saying:
"OH THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS!!! I WANT MY SLAVE LABOUR GOODS!"

Looks like you all live in Omelas and proud of it.

Click to shrink...

This attitude.

You can do all these things, but you can also buy from companies that source from honest countries and release reports on their efforts. And you can buy used and use your stuff for longer, perhaps even prefer digital goods to physical ones, and take advantage of streaming when possible (since that takes the hardware out of the equation).

Perhaps don't get the new consoles, but some hardware do come from countries that have less exploitative laws and governments.

EDIT: to be more clear, the "gotcha" and blaming others aren't helping the cause. The catchphrase is useful as a starting point.

 

[Deleted member 42641]

I really wish people didn't took this phrase as a free pass to avoid all personal responsibility.
Yes, it's unethical, but there's a limit to how ethical consumerism under capitalism can be - which makes it difficult. In short, you need to make your choices and see how and where you can reduce. Personally, I try not to buy too many gadgets or consoles and to make sure I also donate and stay active in relevant causes to offset it.
There' no black and white answers.



"Can't avoid it entirely" != "you are free from any personal responsibility".

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I mean thats not what im doing, but I think to answer OPs question the phrase works well and the first step is realizing that statement fully. I think as 3bdelilah and you suggested its about combating the evils you commit by existing in this system by doing good and also teaching yourself about socialist theory and adovcating for it.

 

[derFeef]

I really wish people didn't took this phrase as a free pass to avoid all personal responsibility.
Yes, it's unethical, but there's a limit to how ethical consumerism under capitalism can be - which makes it difficult. In short, you need to make your choices and see how and where you can reduce. Personally, I try not to buy too many gadgets or consoles and to make sure I also donate and stay active in relevant causes to offset it.
There' no black and white answers.



"Can't avoid it entirely" != "you are free from any personal responsibility".

Click to shrink...

Yup.
What I try to do is keep my purchases to a minimum and try to avoid vendors/manufactors that are known for bad ethics.
Like I won't buy anything from Asus again, or CDPR.

 

[Djalminha]

Is ethical consumption possible under capitalism? No.

Click to shrink...

One and done.

 

[John Kowalski]

On the scale of bad things, slave labour is exceedingly high.

 

[robotrock]

Yes.

 

[SenseiX]

With that knowledge in mind, do you have any reservations or even moral dilemma about investing in the next gen consoles or upgrading parts in your PC? Do you think there's an ethical problem in consuming a product that is possibly made by using a slave labour?

Click to shrink...

Yup. Won't do\buy it unless I extremely have to.

 

[KillLaCam]

you not buying a gpu isn’t stop the slave labor. Something you have to use is using the same labor. Sadly you’d have to be a hermit living in a cave to be able to be ethical

 

[3bdelilah]

"Can't avoid it entirely" != "you are free from any personal responsibility".

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I can't recall making that conclusion, but of course there's personal responsibility to a certain degree, even within the confines of capitalism. Like buying clothes that aren't made in sweatshops, or buying products from sellers that pay their employees a living wage, etc. etc., but also within the gaming industry by not buying games from developers known for their excessive crunching.

But even then, those "socially and sustainably responsible produced" products usually cost quite a bit more, and if you can barely scrape by, your material conditions force you to buy the cheaper, more exploited products. So yeah, if you can afford it, you have a personal choice and I'd even say responsibility to buy the "better" options under capitalism.

 

[Zaber]

Most things are ethically wrong to buy. From entertainment to most essential things that we use on a daily basis. Including food and clothes.

 

[Tiny Chihuahueño]

Yes.
Now apply that question to most other things in your daily life and the answer will be the same.
You can try to help by doing the small things available to you, big companies should be held accountable for what they’re doing, not you.

 

[TaySan]

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Us not buying GPU or video game consoles is not going to stop it.

 

[Deleted member 31092]

Slave labour is behind every single aspect of the life in a first world country. If you don't like it your only option is realistically go live in the woods.

 

[dude]

I can't recall making that conclusion, but of course there's personal responsibility to a certain degree, even within the confines of capitalism. Like buying clothes that aren't made in sweatshops, or buying products from sellers that pay their employees a living wage, etc. etc., but also within the gaming industry by not buying games from developers known for their excessive crunching.

But even then, those "socially and sustainably responsible produced" products usually cost quite a bit more, and if you can barely scrape by, your material conditions force you to buy the cheaper, more exploited products. So yeah, if you can afford it, you have a personal choice and I'd even say responsibility to buy the "better" options under capitalism.

Click to shrink...

Obviously you need to do what you're able, and if you can't afford to try and live more sustainably or ethically, it's not you fault. But, I think it is important to stress that each and everyone has the responsibility to think and consider how they can, within their ability and means, help to create a more sustainable and ethical world.
I don't think we disagree, but I feel like in a lot of these topics people are very quick to jump to the "you need to go live in the woods" pool when there's quite a bit of gradient in the middle that's ignored. So yeah, rather than go live in the woods- Consider whether you really need that new hardware right now, how you can buy new stuff less frequently, research if the games you're interested in are coming out on older consoles as well so you can delay your next gen purchase etc. You don't even have to fully boycott a dev or manufacturer IMO, just think about how you can reduce your own "evil footprint".
All of these things can make a difference, even if you can't be fully ethical as a consumer under capitalism - You can try to achieve "maximum viable ethicality" :P

 

[WesleyShark]

Click to shrink...

Lmao this meme.

It's true though. It's not just electronics. It's clothing, food, whatever else - you'd have to research literally everything you regularly buy, and it'd probably turn out that a lot of it, if not most of it, is manufactured under not so great environments. We're all typing replies in here on our phones or pcs, which are all made form parts that are manufactured potentially by the same people who also manufacture the consoles.

 

[GhostTrick]

Completly wrong. Now it all comes down on how much you care. Considering the nature of that forum (gaming centric), I'd think not many cares.

 

[Centzontotochtin]

Yes but it’s unavoidable. We aren’t living in a fantasy world with pink unicorns.

 

[antispin]

Personally: I feel it is absolutely, 100% wrong. And I hate myself for engaging with it. It's really bad this time around: whether you're engaging with a platform, or with services (games), there's a fair chance that the producers were maltreated.

 

[Hayama Akito]

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

Sadly, the rules of the "game" make exploitation not just a sad exception but a rule.

Be it the finished product or the matrials used, someone has suffered.

Try to buy ethically where possible and be aware what you consume has likely exploited someone somewhere.

I have no solution, sadly. Again,

 

[Red UFO]

It is wrong, but unless you disconnect and go completely off grid from society you’re not gonna get away from it. What you need to do it make personal choices that offset the need for this stuff. Buy less shit that you don’t really need or even want that much, donate to causes, buy/sell/donate second hand where you can, etc.

 

[RingoGaSuki]

It's ethically wrong to do anything if you think hard enough. I do my best to minimise my impact (buy local first, from sustainable sources, products that are made with traceable ethical labour etc.), but you can't just stop living.

 

[strudelkuchen]

Is ethical consumption possible under capitalism? No.

Click to shrink...

One and done.

 

[Rosenkrantz]

Completly wrong. Now it all comes down on how much you care. Considering the nature of that forum (gaming centric), I'd think not many cares.

Click to shrink...

That's a bit at odds with the image this forum is trying to cultivate tho. At least some people are willing to do something on a personal level.

 

[Deleted member 20471]

Yeah that's a huge ethical problem and, I wanna be sincere, I try not to think about it because it makes me feel guilty as fuck. We can safely assume that a lot of things we buy (especially when it comes to tech and clothes) have been made by people that are literally treated like slaves, and that makes me sick. I don't have a solution, the only thing we can do is consuming less and in a more mindful way.

 

[Shambalakan]

Yes, I think. And there are lots of others things that are ethically wrong, like eating burgers, cheese, ice cream and... because animals don't give us those things happily and they're in the worst situations to making them.
But don't know, I'm a bad guy and I do all these things...

 

[mentok15]

Is ethical consumption possible under capitalism? No.

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This is such a lazy argument. Say with this example if their where two consoles that where the same except one was made with sale labour, the other not. You're saying there's no ethical difference in which one you purchase?

 

[Sanka]

You likely can't consume most things without somehow doing something morally wrong by buying it. The mantra folks like to repeat and hide behind whenever this topic comes up to excuse their own behaviour is that there is no ethical consumption under capitalism.

But to me this phrase is the most abused phrase by supposedly "progressive" people there is. I fucking hate it. Acting like literal slave labour or being able to survive decently in a capitalist system are the same shit. There are levels to this and people using this phrase to justify their insatiable hunger for consumption are pissing me off.

Edit: And to your question OP. Anything short of advocating for socialism is not going to amount to much. Because the phrase is theoratically true, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do anything. Rallying the working class, organizing, spreading knowledge, supporting organization and unions, advocating for better working conditions etc are all things that help.
Voting with your dollar in silence or buying "ethical" options is not going to help much.

 

[Aerith]

Yeah that's a huge ethical problem and, I wanna be sincere, I try not to think about it because it makes me feel guilty as fuck. We can safely assume that a lot of things we buy (especially when it comes to tech and clothes) have been made by people that are literally treated by slaves, and that makes me sick. I don't have a solution, the only thing we can do is consume less and in a more mindful way.

Click to shrink...

This is sadly where I'm at too. I feel guilty and conflicted about preordering a PS5, especially coming from a Muslim background myself. Besides trying to be more conscious in how I spend, I also try to be more outspoken against Capitalism.

 

[RolandOfGilead]

It's definitely not ethical but if I'm entirely honest with myself I purposefully ignore these articles and pretend/ignore that it happens so I can go about my happy life.

Does it make me a bit of a dick yeah probably but I'm looking out for me and mine, terrible I know but I feel that's all I can really do that makes an impact.

 

[Aether]

Is ethical consumption possible under capitalism? No.

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First quote nails it.

In the end: reduce the harm you do, you cant prevent it totally (except by going full self sufucient... not gona happen)
What you can do: Vote acording to your beliefs (Saying as an European, so a generall message) and buy only when you are shure you want/need the product. If in doubt, dont buy/wait.

 

[peppersky]

There are tons of other entertainment options besides gaming which are ethically much less questionable. So yes, it is unethical. It's not like you'd die without gaming, it's just luxury.

Also, I'm the biggest socialist I know and you guys are fucking lame ass socialists if you use "there's no ethical consumption under capitalism" to justify buying a shitty game console. Like seriously guys grow the fuck up. All that that phrase might mean, is that you should never feel good for consuming something under capitalism. Since no matter how free-range, sustainable and wholesome something might seem, in every stage of the production process, labour is being exploited. They could make those consoles out of entirely recycled parts, donate money to charity, and pay their workers double the industry wage, and it still wouldn't be ethical to consume them.

like maybe if you guys just stopped playing videogames for just a minute you might actually find the time to read a fucking book and stop lying to yourself

 

[xpownz]

This is such a lazy argument. Say with this example if their where two consoles that where the same except one was made with sale labour, the other not. You're saying there's no ethical difference in which one you purchase?

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The problem here is there are no exceptions in order to measure peoples ethics.

Food/meat industry, for example, is a thing that has its exceptions and people are constantly going vegan/methane free food, either by watching some anima cruelty clip or a bigger ideology/mental freedom.

Console/PC parts tho? I consider myself an enthusiast and even I don't know where to find local parts. Do any of you?

 

[Dphex]

You can´t even buy a banana without knowing 100 percent that it was ethically correctly harvested.

not to speak of meat, clothes, parts in electronic devices and so on. if you want to be sure you would have to live a life of a hermit who is also a self supporter.

 

[Aether]

This is such a lazy argument. Say with this example if their where two consoles that where the same except one was made with sale labour, the other not. You're saying there's no ethical difference in which one you purchase?

Click to shrink...

Shure, if there would be a clear difference.
But lets be honest, they produce them in the same factories with the same materials, and its not as if there are other options for tech products. (Except maybe some niche projects like the fairphone).
Nobody is saying "dont buy localy made fair products instead of mass market exploitative stuff", but especially in tech there arent many alternatives. And with those 2 consoles... yeah, not a difference.

 

[WishIwasAwolf]

In America minority and ethnic groups are often oppressed. Also the American regime invades and bombs other countries.
People don't care about this when they buy Google, Microsoft or Apple products. They just want the new Pixel or Xbox.

Those people NEED for countries like China to exist, so that they can believe there is a bigger evil and buying from companies which are "less worse" is ethically okay. Not to mention those companies use China to produce their products anyway :(

Basically everybody is fooling themselves.

 

[GhostTrick]

That's a bit at odds with the image this forum is trying to cultivate tho. At least some people are willing to do something on a personal level.

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Well, it is. But on the other hand, it'd also be complicated. If this forum tried to comply to that image, that'd mean they'd have to ban discussions around PS5, Series X, Switch and PC parts.