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vestan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Dec 28, 2017
24,611
So with KH3 almost here (9 days!!), I've been wondering how the critical reception for this game is going to look. On one hand, Nomura and the team look to have really knocked it out of the park but looking at general ERA comments and the like, I've seen quite a few concerns raised over accessibility and approachibility. A lot of people are intrigued with the Disney stuff but the actual game's story is a culmination of almost a dozen games stretched between multiple platforms. I think it's important to note that Square has made multiple concessions to alleviate this what with KH3's recap bundled with the game and a massive collection of all the games + supplementary material released on the PS4. I think it's unreasonable to expect the average joe to play through all of these games but reviewers should be a different thing right? Well, I don't know. At the end of the day, gaming journalists are people too and have lives. It's unreasonable to expect anyone to go through around 8 games just to get up to speed with a newer entry. But it begs the question, is it reasonable or unreasonable for someone unfamiliar with a long-standing franchise to come to their own conclusion on the story despite the years of build up? Does a game's narrative need to stand on its own two feet despite serving as the conclusion of something in the making for 17 years? It's almost a given that KH3's main criticisms from critics will stem from the nature of the story it is trying to tell needing a lot of background information from games people may not have played.

A game like MGS4 did really well despite being a direct sequel to MGS2 and involving MGS3 stuff in its plot though I feel what really elevated it above the sum of its parts is the cinematic presentation, gameplay improvements and it being a technical marvel at the time. Not saying KH3 isn't any of these, but it places its story at the forefront which is why I don't understand people who say they play these games for the gameplay only. There's nothing wrong with doing this as KH has great gameplay, but the story isn't something you can shelve. It permeates every aspect of the experience.

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Some highly anticipated entries in long-standing franchises like Metal Gear have released this gen to absolute critical acclaim, but looking at their stories, they're relatively standalone and I know that many people's exposure to these franchises for the first time is through these games.

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This is just something I've been wondering for a while, I look forward to reading all of your insight on this as I think it's a discussion worth having.
 

Spring-Loaded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,904
It's reasonable to expect reviewers to be up front about their past experience with a series/genre.

No one review must be the end-all-be-all review for a game, so if a given review doesn't come from someone who's already familiar with CRPGS or Kingdom Hearts and they criticize the game for stuff that would've been fine/good/less of a problem/etc. had they been more familiar with the series/genre, it's still valuable to know what newcomers might experience with the game.
 

low-G

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,144
Proportional to the quality and size of the series. If the reviewer hasn't played a game in a series that 90% of the review audience has played, I don't think that will be a very helpful review. It doesn't take too long to become familiar with a few entries in a series.

How many people have finished every Final Fantasy game, on the other hand? I imagine it's in the 100's...

There's also a totally different matter of actual critiques of games. But reviewers can't be putting number scores on critiques.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
No. Generally most games are designed to accommodate newcomers so it shouldn't be a problem as long as the reviewer allows for the fact that they won't be attached to long running narrative arcs to not affect their review beyond what's reasonable.
 

bluexy

Comics Enabler & Freelance Games Journalist
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
14,510
No, I don't think it should be expected. What should be expected, however, is a transparent framing of the reviewer's experience with the franchise within the review's text. Just enough to be acknowledged. Someone new to the Kingdom Hearts franchise has just as meaningful a perspective as someone who has been playing for over a decade. It should be up to readers to find a review/reviewer that meets their needs, up to reviewers to make that relatively easy for readers.
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,026
Not unreasonable and you'd also want them to be familiar with the genre they are reviewing. I've mentioned this before but the movement away from genre specific reviewers to a more personality driven 'critic' culture where a reviewer could potentially review or preview games from genres they may not be familiar with has made for some interesting results.
 

Nacho Papi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,337
There will always be new people exposed to long standing series for the first time, as such it's always good to have the perspective of newcomers as well as the most ardent fans. Right?
 

VaanXSnake

Banned
Jul 18, 2018
2,099
They don't have to have played all the game but they need to have done their homework and get as much as possible from the past games and they need to be familiar about the genre as well.
 

DrMoguera

Member
Oct 27, 2017
432
I think it's reasonable for reviewers to not only be expected to be familiar with the franchise, but with other similar games and the genre of the game they've reviewing in general. The whole idea of having a "critic" system is that presumably these people are more knowledgeable and experienced than the average person which is why their opinion is given weight. If that's not the case, then it might as well be anyone giving you an opinion. Which is probably the case in a lot of instances, and one of the biggest things I feel could be improved upon in our current critic climate.
 

PogiJones

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,636
A review is helpful to whatever demographic the reviewer represents. If the reviewer is someone who wonders why Metroid can't crawl, that review would still help a person of similar capability and familiarity to know if they would enjoy the game. Granted, such a player finding such a review would be a bit of a long shot.
 

Armite

Member
Mar 30, 2018
956
It's more helpful to have reviews from a variety of different perspectives rather than a similar one, honestly. A game should be able to stand on its own without relying previous installments to prop it up either way.
 

DrArchon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,485
There will always be new people exposed to long standing series for the first time, as such it's always good to have the perspective of newcomers as well as the most ardent fans. Right?
Exactly.

A review that goes super in-depth into why Dynasty Warriors 19 is worse than Dynasty Warriors 17 because of all of the minute changes in character movesets isn't going to help me when I've only played Hyrule Warriors.
 
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vestan

vestan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Dec 28, 2017
24,611
All reviews, regardless of experience, can be valid.
Absolutely! I'm not doubting that at all. I'm just wondering when it comes to stuff like fanservice which may elevate an experience to greater heights for fans and those, will mostly be rubbed off on those who don't have an exposure to a franchise. It becomes a problem when a game relies too much on this fanservice to elevate a game to greater heights (MGS4).

A good recent example of this is Travis Strikes Again which has been extremely divisive amongst critics. Playing the game for myself, I'm having an absolute blast purely due to the fanservice and general presentation carrying the more sub-par gameplay elements which critics are putting at the forefront of their reviews due to that lack of exposure to GhM and Suda's stuff. I'm not saying gameplay shouldn't be an important part of critics and criticisms but at the end of the day, it's an experience. Games are more than just gameplay, there's music, story etc. Travis Strikes Again heavily relies on knowing Suda and GhM's stuff to fully enjoy it. It's something I'd praise highly as a whole while a mate of mine couldn't give less of a shit about because of that unfamiliarity.

Games as a whole are meant to be experiences and that experience can differ widely whether you're familiar or unfamiliar with a certain franchise. It's why I think lmore developers embracing being able to create an experience for newcomers and fans alike is for the best.
 

Pirateluigi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,865
There will always be new people exposed to long standing series for the first time, as such it's always good to have the perspective of newcomers as well as the most ardent fans. Right?
This.

I havent played KH1 or 2. I would appreciate a review from that perspective to know if it's worth diving straight into 3.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,050
If I'm not familiar with a franchise and have to review a game from it I'll at least try to do some research.

There will always be new people exposed to long standing series for the first time, as such it's always good to have the perspective of newcomers as well as the most ardent fans. Right?

Yes, both perspectives are equally valid, which is why I sometimes read multiple reviews from both perspectives. This is one reason gaming magazines used to have "second opinions".
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
People forget that reviewers themselves are fans and this tends to especially go out the window when fans of a thing anticipate not too hot reviews for a thing they're looking forward to and really want to like no matter what it turns out to be.
 

Jeff6851

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
753
This is why The Story so Far should have come out a year ago on both systems. It's gonna do so poorly on Xbox because no one who has been Xbox only has ever touched this series.
 

wondermagenta

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,153
Cologne
It's reasonable to expect reviewers to be up front about their past experience with a series/genre.

No one review must be the end-all-be-all review for a game, so if a given review doesn't come from someone who's already familiar with CRPGS or Kingdom Hearts and they criticize the game for stuff that would've been fine/good/less of a problem/etc. had they been more familiar with the series/genre, it's still valuable to know what newcomers might experience with the game.

I agree with this. Either perspective is just as valid, but you should absolutely disclose where you're coming from. I personally think that having someone with experience will lead to a more well-rounded, accurate, fairer review, but that doesn't mean that other side shouldn't be catered to.

That said, I feel like mainstream reviews right now are HEAVILY skewed to cater to casual players first and foremost. I know I'm not gonna see a single jump-cancel in those DMC5 reviews come March, and for me it's frustrating to see every mainstream outlet discuss melee action combat like this in such a surface-level way (which I think is what happened with God of War). There needs to be a balance.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,143
A narrative doesn't need to stand on its own two feet as a rule. It'd be nice if everything was both easily appreciated by newcomers and hardcores alike, but it's not always practical and it's not a big deal if this one thing is inaccessible to newcomers in this one aspect.

That being said, if a reviewer is up front about their lack of experience going in, and doesn't enjoy it because of that, I don't see why that can't be a legitimate perspective. All of our opinions going into Kingdom Hearts III are based on perspective, like whether or not we enjoy the Disney IP in this particular game, whether or not we like action games, etc., so I don't see the "has/hasn't played previous entries" as a particularly unique element of the equation.

That ALSO being said, I don't think most people are looking for a complete newcomers perspective, especially when review scores feed into metacritic and all that, so I wouldn't recommend it really.
 

shem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,955
Varies game to game but if an author of a review makes it clear what perspective they're coming from there's value in a review from a longtime fan or someone coming at the 9th game in a series.
 

Nostradamus

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,280
Actually, I would encourage gaming media to assign different reviewers for different entries of a franchise. Games, like movies, even when part of a bigger ark need to hold on their own as well. Moreover, by diversifying the review process you minimize positive or negative bias. In the end of the day, every opinion matters (as long as it presents arguments of course).
 

Eumi

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,518
Both experiences are valuable in informing the potential customer.

I've always felt that this "reviewers need to have X to review this game" thing is never a demand actually aimed at improving reviews, just altering scores.

If a bunch of reviewers review KH3 and score it badly because of their experience not having played the rest of the series, then that lets newcomers know to stay away, whilst veterans can look to those reviews from those with series knowledge to get the info more suited to them.

Reviewers should be ideally varied, and the notion that they shouldn't really just comes from the toxic fixation on metascores. I mean, even in the OP, metascores are being used instead of actual reviews as examples.
 

strideredge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
307
With pokemon in recent years I've seen several sites go with multiple reviewers. One that is the series fan that has played all the games and then someone thats either never played a pokemon game or someone that fell off the series in the 90s. Which is probably a good idea for perspective. Though I would assume something with a 20 year story that gets as convoluted as Kingdom Hearts the results would be less favorable with the new person.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,125
it can vary. some games are obviously bespoke to "returning players" and some 22 year old tasked with reviewing will have no idea what he's talking about or his experience isn't what 90% of the targeted audience will experience

but generally no it doesn't matter. in fact i prefer reviewers to be as unattached to a game's history as reasonably possible. i won't name the outlet as not to derail but one in particular has their standard "go to" writer for certain games who'll write a thesis for why the latest installment deserves a Nobel when people just want a fucking review
 
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DrArchon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,485
Games, like movies, even when part of a bigger ark need to hold on their own as well.
I feel like this is much more important for games than movies.

Any given movie is just 2+ or so of your time. Even with something like Infinity War there's only so much time you can spend getting up to speed by watching the previous Marvel movies. Meanwhile, any given Kingdom Hearts game will take 10s of hours (especially if you don't know what you're doing or aren't very good at the game).
 

LuckyLinus

Member
Jun 1, 2018
1,935
Both sides are fair, reviewer transparency is ideal. the more nuance of perspectives, the more oppertunity consumers have to inform themselves if the game is worth their time and money.
 
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vestan

vestan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Dec 28, 2017
24,611
it can vary. some games are obviously bespoke to "returning players" and some 22 year old tasked with reviewing it has no idea what he's talking about or at least his experience isn't what 90% of the targeted audience will experience

but generally no it doesn't matter. in fact i prefer reviewers to be as unattached to a game's history as reasonably possible. i won't name the outlet as not to derail but one in particular has their standard "go to" writer certain games who writes a thesis for why the latest installment deserves a Nobel when people just want a fucking review
Do you mind PMing me the outlet in question? I'm somewhat curious, this sounds interesting.
 
Dec 4, 2017
11,481
Brazil
I remember one review complaining about Lost Legacy having too much combat, saying that Uncharted wasn't like this, because their experience was U4
 

xabbott

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,065
Florida
A KH3 review where the person doesn't have a history with the franchise would be of more value to me since I'm in the same boat. But if it was something I'd been into I would want a review from that perspective. So there is value in both and hopefully the person reviewing the game gets those points across.
 

Rodjer

Self-requested ban.
Member
Jan 28, 2018
4,808
I'd like to see reviewers that are able to play a game and reviewing it properly.
 

McScroggz

The Fallen
Jan 11, 2018
5,971
Personally, if it's a numbered game in a series continuing the storyline of the previous game/s it doesn't make sense to hold it against a game if there is a baseline of orevi Is knowledge assumed of the player. Especially if the game finds ways to bring up prior events to jog the memory.

A reviewer should obviously state whether a game is a good one to play if you are new to the series or if it's hard to get into as a new player, but it's illogical to give a lower score because of that.
 

Ducarmel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,363
I do believe if your career choice is about reviewing games I expect you to be knowledgeable with in reason about long standing series, trends, and significant moments in gaming history.

It's expected for movie, book, music reviewers I don't see why not for game reviewers. if we want video games to be taken serioulsy as entertainment and art I think reviewers should have an all around knowledge of video games in general.
 

Orayn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,927
There's value in reviews from every level of experience with a series. Do you think everyone who reviewed Infinity War had seen every single film in the MCU?
 

No Depth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
18,263
There will always be an audience of newcomers interested in a perspective similar to their own. So long as the reviewer makes their experience known upfront, it helps signal whom their perspective is catered toward and becomes that much more helpful. This absolutely, unquestionably includes those with a fresh perspective. Even longtime fans may be interested in and take value at the perspective of someone unfamiliar if the review and context is well articulated.

So basically an emphatic "no". Everyone will and should have a unique perspective given their mix of interest, nostalgia, or naivete.
 

DrArchon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,485
A reviewer should obviously state whether a game is a good one to play if you are new to the series or if it's hard to get into as a new player, but it's illogical to give a lower score because of that.
I don't see why. If the story completely falls apart because they game doesn't do a good job of getting newcomers up to speed, then why shouldn't they score it lower for that?

It's not like they can just say "Well the story makes no sense at all, but apparently it makes sense to other people so 9/10."
 

TitanicFall

Member
Nov 12, 2017
8,261
Maybe review it from both perspectives. Assigning only one person to review a game always seemed weird to me.
 

Shoe

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,182
I like how The A.V. Club has two reviews for Game of Thrones episodes — one from someone intimately knowledgeable about the books and universe and one who just watches the show. That would be nice for reviews of games in a big franchise.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
Not necessarily reasonable. Also the "it's excellent game but bad X game" has no place in a proper review as far as the score goes. Of course possible big changes in the franchise can be worth a mention, but if the game is good then it's good no matter how much it's different from it's predecessor. It helps to know something about the reviewers preferences and gaming history though. So you can determine how helpful the review is to you specifically.
People forget that reviewers themselves are fans and this tends to especially go out the window when fans of a thing anticipate not too hot reviews for a thing they're looking forward to and really want to like no matter what it turns out to be.
Also for outlets with multiple reviewers, there is usually someone who gravitates towards certain kind of game and will do the review for it. Of course all bases won't be always covered. Not every outlet has their 4x expert even if they have multiple people in the staff. I wish there was more often a "second opinion" as someone else already mentioned. One example I can think of was in a local gaming magazine, where Xenoblade Chronicles 2 got two different review scores. The person who loves anything anime and plays a lot of Japanese games, gave it 90 while another reviewer slapped it with 70.
 

Eumi

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,518
I feel like this is much more important for games than movies.

Any given movie is just 2+ or so of your time. Even with something like Infinity War there's only so much time you can spend getting up to speed by watching the previous Marvel movies. Meanwhile, any given Kingdom Hearts game will take 10s of hours (especially if you don't know what you're doing or aren't very good at the game).
I dunno, that honestly just sounds like an arbitrary limitation.

There shouldn't be anything wrong with making a game aimed at people who have played the previous games. I've played tons of games that don't really hold up at all on their own but as part of a larger series they're some of my favourite, singular games. That is, they're stellar individual entries, but only thanks to me having played previous games in the franchise.

Different games can be different things. Not all games need to have the same goals, target audience, or structure. Variety can only strengthen the medium.

I think this attitude is probably just a result of the culture within gaming that every single game needs to be for everyone, and the general unwillingness people have to just accept that they might not be who the game is made for. KH3 doesn't need to cater to people unwilling to invest in the series. It certainly could, and doing so may well elevate it, but it may also compromise it, and the people best suited to making that decision are the people who are making the game.
 

Fatmanp

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,438
I know that is is not feasible due to how many games that come out but I think multiple people reviewing a title should be more common at least on the bigger titles/franchises. An old v new perspective would be good.
 

Deleted member 46429

Self-requested ban
Banned
Aug 4, 2018
2,185
It's contextual.

A lot of people are interested in Kingdom Hearts 3 who may have limited experience with the franchise. How accessible the game's plot is, say using only the short video thing Square Enix includes as an extra, is an opinion many many people are interested in. Yes, the best decision is to play through KH games--they're on the PS4--or at the very least watch the cutscenes on YouTube. But it's an opinion that I still thinks contribute something, and I think it's fair game.

Compare to, say, something like Trails in the Sky SC (literally "Second Chapter") where if you jumped into SC without playing FC of course you'd be completely lost. Anyone familiar with the Sky series will tell you to start with FC, and writing an essay on how lost you were because you ignored that advice doesn't hep anyone.

Part of the reason I'm less forgiving of KH is that there's so many games. If 1 and 2 were the only essential games and the spinoffs were actually spinoffs, I'd more less forgiving of people skipping two short-ish RPGs that were ported to the same console nearly two years ago. But because you have CoM, 3D, and BBS on top of that, expecting people to poor 100+ hours to play a series that is only now being modernized is a lot to ask. Compare to the Sky games where FC and SC are essentially the same game inasmuch as gameplay is concerned, so you'd have to really struggle to explain why someone would want to start with SC before FC.
 
Dec 14, 2017
1,351
It' neither. As long as the reviewer explains their experience with a series's past I see no issue. Of course, I won't highly value a reviewers opinion on a series I'm familiar with when they are not, and vice versa.