BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,543
I just don't understand how Nomura is allowed to continue writing this series. Kingdom Hearts, as a story, defies all logic and attempts at comprehension. Listen, I "understand" Kingdom Hearts. I know about Heartless, Nobodies, Somebodies, Replicas, Data-Replicas, Norted, Time-Travel hearts, etc. I've played the games. I've watched the famed PCP lecture many times. Yet, every time I think I finally understand what is going on my brain collapses under the weight of it all especially when Nomura just decides to ignore his own complicated rules to do whatever he wants; complicated rules that NO ONE asked him to setup in the first place. For example when a heart becomes a Heartless, you must destroy the Heartless and then the Nobody for the somebody to return. Yet, Sora just comes back from being a Heartless without needing to do any of that. Roxas is Sora's nobody, but also kinda Ventus' nobody but then Ventus comes back in KH3 so obviously Roxas can't come back, yet Nomura just says, "yo, Roxas gets to come back too." THE FUCK?!

Please stop, I don't want to hear your long-winded explanation about how this replica allowed Roxas to come back and whatnot, its bullshit and we both know it. I just don't understand why Nomura keeps adding complexities upon complexities (many of which should have earth-shattering philosophical questions that are just waived over) to what should be a simple and clean story about friendship, adolescence, and growing up. Let's think about this for a second in the world of Kingdom Hearts there are:

Light Worlds/The "Real World
The Realm of Darkness
Data-Copies of the Real World with Data People
The Sleeping/Dream World
Illusory Worlds Projected onto the Real World
Entire Worlds Inside Books

All of these worlds also have worlds inside themselves. Like, the Realm of Light is a Multi-verse that connects FF and Disney worlds, but each world is its own self-contained universe. Yet there can also exist Data Copies of those worlds, which are really entire universes, with simulated data people and those Data people can develop hearts making them real people. How is this not a earth-shattering event that would break the sanity of any individual? You can have Riku and a Data-Riku who both have hearts and thus are "real" people. How is this shit even possible? I mean, in KH2 they introduce without fanfare that Data-Worlds and People can exist. Yes sir, people in KH just have that technology. That's like The Matrix introducing THE MATRIX as just an afterthought, something not at all worthy of discussion or a second thought. KH does this routinely.

But really, let's just explore the fact that the series is so willfully obtuse with regards to just the basic logic and meaning of words and human life. NOTHING in KH operates with any semblance to the real world. Words straight up do not mean what they should and human beings don't function as human beings do. You see human beings are made up of a Body, Heart (comprised of Light and Dark), and a Soul, each of which are Distinct. Entities. Death doesn't seem to have any real meaning because a heart is independent of the body and the body is independent of the heart. You can have Heartless that retains a human shape (Ansem) and a Nobody that retains a human shape (Org XIII), thus someone could separate into two separate, sentient human beings.

Heartless does not mean someone without a heart. A Nobody is a person. A Somebody is just regular you. X means Key. Up means Down. 6=7.

Just why?

The reason the majority of people like Kingdom Hearts is the Disney appeal alongside heartfelt, adorable original characters. People watch the story for sea salt ice-cream and spending the last days of summer hanging out with their friends. But then you've got all this obtuse, nigh-incomprehensible nonsense thrown in constantly on-top that distracts from the actual appeal of the series. I don't get it, why does Nomura keep adding complexity that no one sane wants? You could even somehow excuse it if it was a tightly written, intricate narrative such that the complexity makes sense, like a rulebook, that you could have fun predicting shit. But its not, nothing is ever really followed and will be undone for the sake of emotion. Its LOST level of writing except far worse. You can theory-craft all you like, but it doesn't make a lick of difference when Nomura laughs in your face and just trolls the entire narrative with some new shit that gets retconned in.

Why is it this way??!?!?!
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
61,777
I wonder what the voice actors think?

But yes, it's an incoherent mess. And now FFVII is gonna get this treatment lol.
 

Annabel

Member
Mar 22, 2019
1,677
I still stand by Metal Gear being far more confusing and crazy. To say nothing of stuff like Blazblue or Guilty Gear.

That being said I like KH, and the ones posted above as well. Never really had trouble understanding what's going except for DDD and I blame a lot of that on the localization trying to be overly verbose.
 

SanTheSly

The San Symphony Project
Member
Sep 2, 2019
6,871
United Kingdom
I feel like it was either BDG or Tim Rogers that described KH as "luxurious storytelling", which is probably more fitting than willfully obtuse. But they're both pretty on the money.

Kingdom Hearts isn't as hard to understand as people think, but it sure is goofy and unconventional.
 

Slim Action

Member
Jul 4, 2018
5,681
Large sections of the core plot happening exclusively 200 hours into a mobile spinoff game* has to be a record of some kind.

(* - with the Japanese version of the mobile game being six months ahead, naturally)
 
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BossAttack

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,543
I still stand by Metal Gear being far more confusing and crazy. To say nothing of stuff like Blazblue or Guilty Gear.

That being said I like KH, and the ones posted above as well. Never really had trouble understanding what's going except for DDD and I blame a lot of that on the localization trying to be overly verbose.

Metal Gear doesn't have time travel or logic that is seperate from basic real world logic or Data worlds and dream worlds.
 

pbayne

Corrupted by Vengeance
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,706
Id love to watch nomura sit down and just write some time

The guy must have no filter/any idea is a good idea mentality
 

Camjo-Z

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,586
Five Nights at Freddy's is the only thing I can think of that comes close. Good luck piecing together the plot and lore of those games without any external assistance.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
61,777
Metal Gear is not confusing. It's just retcons galore.
 

OutofMana

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,200
California
There's a quote from Nomura where he is asked why the story is the way it is. Paraphrasing here, but he said a complex story is a lot less boring or something along those lines.
 

Ballpoint Ren

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,426
Canada
OP, if it's any consolation this is exactly why I've chosen not to play Kingdom Hearts, and I probably made it through only the first paragraph of your post before typing this.
 

CKT

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Feb 1, 2020
619
It really is just insanity thrown at the screen, I've tried my best to understand but it's just not happening. I've had fans try and explain the series, still not happening. I enjoy the gameplay and mostly ignore the storyline at this point.
 
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BossAttack

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,543
Metal Gear is not confusing. It's just retcons galore.

I would even argue that not every Metal Gear should be taken as serious canon.

MG1, MG2, MGS1, MGS3, MGS: PW are all totally fine and make perfect sense.

Metal Gear Solid 2 should be thought of as a standalone title. It really is supposed to be the end of the series, at least the end of Solid Snake's narrative.
Metal Gear Solid 4 is a sequel to a game that is not supposed to have a sequel resulting in brain fart logic. Still, good emotional payoff even if it makes little sense since you can't make a sequel to Vanilla Sky be Mission Impossible.
Metal Gear Solid V is just trash narrative though.

Woah, okay. Agree to disagree I guess?

It is not simple to understand. Just because you understand it and it can be explained to someone after three hours doesn't mean it's not confusing. Please explain the nature of Roxas and how he returned in KH3 and then tell me that is "easy to understand."
 

JEH

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,387
Nojima stopped helping with the story after 2 right? Feel like that has something to do with it.
 

Mik317

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,877
the point to point story (i.e what actually happens) is rather simple.

it is buoyed by a bunch of backstory for sure but not all of it is needed really. I didn't even know about the mobile game and I still got that all the keyblades were from the old war coming to help Sora. I mean shit the only games I've beat in the series are the mainline ones ( got stuck near the end of DDS) and pretty much just read or watch videos on the remainder.Time Travel obviously throws wrenches into things and the meme of everyone is xenonort or sora is true and funny but when you have a long running franchise that basically had to pad itself out with spinoffs between mainlines...things will get a bit kooky.

but IMO I think it gets a bit overstated at how confusing things are
 

Zomba13

#1 Waluigi Fan! Current Status: Crying
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,105
I is insane, obtuse, nonsense and I THINK I understand it.

I love the games but yeah, I can't really say much positive about the story outside of "yo that was hype" when something cool happens. It's all nonsense held together by intangible concepts and theories written on the back of a napkin from dinner two weeks ago. And then you throw in TIME TRAVEL and apparently the power to just bring people back from the dead and visit heaven.

Someone mentioned above wondering what the VA think of the story and I would LOVE to sit down with the cast and just ask them about what they think the games are about. You know, without the threat of lord Nomura, SE and the Disney overlords (and that Disney guy that is straight up Master Xehanort).
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
61,777
The character doubles is what kills the series for me narratively. its a dumb gimmick. I can take multiple dimensions and such. But character doubles on top of that is just too much.
 

Apollo

Corrupted by Vengeance
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,213
Please stop, I don't want to hear your long-winded explanation about how this replica allowed Roxas to come back and whatnot, its bullshit and we both know it.
I don't get it, why does Nomura keep adding complexity that no one sane wants?

It's difficult to want to engage when you say things like this. So many critiques of KH seem to run with the idea that the story is batshit insane, and anybody who argues otherwise is also batshit insane. KH is divisive, I get that. I don't pretend that everybody likes it, and I don't think that everybody should. But the longevity of the series and the popularity of its lore very clearly indicate that it resonates with a lot more people than its detractors want to admit. It's deeply frustrating to me when people act as if the connection fans feel to this series is founded on something that is objectively bad.
 

Wispmetas

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,561
Its not that deep. Enjoy the disney fare, check the colorful characters, defeat the bad guys and look forward to some crazy ideas to create even more bad guys for you to hit with your oversized key alongside Donald and Goofy.

Like come on, Nomura fucking bought wannabe Noctis from Versus to the game so you could beat his ass.
 

Mik317

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,877
oh so this is a kingdom hearts/nomura is bad and you should feel bad for lking them thread?

carry on then lol
 

Antoo

Member
May 1, 2019
3,860
Nojima stopped helping with the story after 2 right? Feel like that has something to do with it.
I mean 2 is where the story started taking a turn for the worse. It introduced multiple new characters and concepts without elaborating on them at all. 358/2 and Chain of Memroies are pretty much required if you want to understand the arcs of characters like Roxas and Axel since the game just thrusts you into the world with no context of what is going on. The dialogue became much worse starting with this game with all those awkward long pauses and stilted dialogue. Additionally, this is the game that started the series staple of rewriting the previous games. Remember the Kingdom Hearts you saw in the 1st game? Oh, that wasn't the REAL one. From this point onward these games just started fucking with the story of the previous ones and actively making the story of the past games less meaningful by removing any weight from the emotional moments. The ending of 358/2 means nothing now. It's like Nomura can't understand how a tragedy is suppose to work.

KH2 is also the game that started the trend of sidelining Kairi so fuck KH2's story. Honestly, I enjoyed KH3's story to a certain extent because it spent a good amount of time lampooning how stupid everything was. I loved how the Disney characters didn't give a shit about all the Xehanorts and actively roasted them to oblivion. I still enjoy the series but I always wonder what it would have been like if they kept things simple. The first game is like comfort food to me with how quaint it is.
 
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BossAttack

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,543
the point to point story (i.e what actually happens) is rather simple.

it is buoyed by a bunch of backstory for sure but not all of it is needed really. I didn't even know about the mobile game and I still got that all the keyblades were from the old war coming to help Sora. I mean shit the only games I've beat in the series are the mainline ones ( got stuck near the end of DDS) and pretty much just read or watch videos on the remainder.Time Travel obviously throws wrenches into things and the meme of everyone is xenonort or sora is true and funny but when you have a long running franchise that basically had to pad itself out with spinoffs between mainlines...things will get a bit kooky.

but IMO I think it gets a bit overstated at how confusing things are

It's not simple since understanding all that shit is important to giving a shit about the characters.

Why the fuck would you care about Larxene and her "death" (ie being recompleted) if you don't understand Union Cross X? Why the fuck would you care about Lingering Will beating the shit out of Terra Nort if you don't understand Birth By Sleep? The fact that Roxas is a nobody and Ventus is a real person is crucial to the impact of when Roxas returns as a complete person. Because if you don't have that knowledge that moment has no weight.

You have to understand the "rules" and stakes in order for you to be invested. You also need to know who a character is and their deal to give a shit about them, otherwise its just stuff happening. Xion coming back means nothing unless you understand ALL THAT SHIT.

It's difficult to want to engage when you say things like this. So many critiques of KH seem to run with the idea that the story is batshit insane, and anybody who argues otherwise is also batshit insane. KH is divisive, I get that. I don't pretend that everybody likes it, and I don't think that everybody should. But the longevity of the series and the popularity of its lore very clearly indicate that it resonates with a lot more people than its detractors want to admit. It's deeply frustrating to me when people act as if the connection fans feel to this series is founded on something that is objectively bad.

I covered this in the OP if you actually read the whole thing. People care about KH because of the characters, not the needless complexity that Nomura keeps introducing yet never actually follows.
 

Thorakai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,246
What frustrates me more than anything you laid out is how the dialogue is made to purposely obfuscate plot points as much as possible. Some common KH tropes:
  • Entire conversations about another person are done solely referring to them using pronouns, without any of the people involved once doing the normal thing and using that person's real name
  • Character about to reveal pivotal piece of information only to be interrupted or brush things off for a later reveal
  • Endless abuse of the characters in hoods to hide someone's identity
It makes an already confusing set of rules harder to understand.
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
I mean 2 is where the story started taking a turn for the worse. It introduced multiple new characters and concepts without elaborating on them at all. 358/2 and Chain of Memroies are pretty much required if you want to understand the arcs of characters like Roxas and Axel since the game just thrusts you into the world with no context of what is going on. The dialogue became much worse starting with this game with all those awkward long pauses and stilted dialogue. Additionally, this is the game that started the series staple of rewriting the previous games. Remember the Kingdom Hearts you saw in the 1st game? Oh, that wasn't the REAL one. From this point onward these games just started fucking with the story of the previous ones and actively making the story of the past games less meaningful by removing any weight from the emotional moments.

KH2 is also the game that started the trend of sidelining Kairi.

That's more because the English Dub is kinda trash for KH.

Kairi has been sidelined from the beginning. She's only a damsel in distress plot device in KH 1.

And you really don't need to play 358/2 Days to understand KH 2.

You only need to play Chain of Memories and you'd be good.
 
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BossAttack

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,543
BestGuy of PCP Lecture fame actually gave a fair video of KH3 that gets into a lot of this. Note, he loves the series and KH3 but EVEN HE recognizes the nonsense:

 

Mik317

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,877
It's not simple since understanding all that shit is important to giving a shit about the characters.

Why the fuck would you care about Larxene and her "death" (ie being recompleted) if you don't understand Union Cross X? Why the fuck would you care about Lingering Will beating the shit out of Terra Nort if you don't understand Birth By Sleep? The fact that Roxas is a nobody and Ventus is a real person is crucial to the impact of when Roxas returns as a complete person. Because if you don't have that knowledge that moment has no weight.

You have to understand the "rules" and stakes in order for you to be invested. You also need to know who a character is and their deal to give a shit about them, otherwise its just stuff happening. Xion coming back means nothing unless you understand ALL THAT SHIT.
You care for Larxene because she is just another pawn in Xenonart's game and was obviously only along for the ride for someone else anyway. BBS is important obviously...i mean it sets up our main villain...I also consider it mainline despite its psp roots. Again I know fuck all about the mobile game and all the stuff still attached to it still hit for me. sorry it didn't for you?
 

Tintin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
140
This is one franchise that absolutely needs to be rebooted story wise due to it being convoluted for the sake of being convoluted.

Sad part is that FF7R is also heading in the same direction with the alternate timelines that will probably converge and lead to KHs level of insanity.