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Is Kojima the M. Night Shyamalan of the gaming industry?

Parapraxis

Member
Feb 16, 2018
220
I didn't create the response you're addressing and I didn't create the goalpost to be moved. I noticed you asked for evidence and I merely provided one example I recalled. I'm sure the other posters have more.
Your evidence didn't fulfill the claim I asked to be proved. It's also possible to not be the person making the initial claim and still move goalposts.

The claim was that people were declaring it GOTY before playing it, that post wasn't an example of that.
 

IrishNinja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,670
Vice City
admittedly haven't played death stranding yet but kojima is more consistent than m night and snyder both

MGS4 was one of his few missteps
 

Damn Silly

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,774
he's...J.J Abrams

let's pretend I didn't pick this at random and instead had some logic behind this choice
 

CHC

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,261
He hasnt been able to tell a good story since MGS3, IMO.
Absolutely true.

For what it's worth I liked MGS4 because, while imperfect, it had a lot of heart and we had the benefit of knowing all the characters pretty well by that point. Everything since then has been a sharp plunge downhill. The story and writing in Death Stranding is just awful, really, and when people argue otherwise I kind of wonder what the frame of reference is for good writing is at that point.
 

TacoSupreme

Member
Jul 26, 2019
494
I think Kojima is a much more successful game developer than Shyamalan is a filmmaker. However, I think they both shit on their otherwise virtuous talents by insisting on attempting to create intricate and complex narratives which invariably end up feeling grotesquely sophomoric and messy. The worst part is that they come off as thinking their work is mature and advanced, but (especially in Kojima's case) the end result just feels like a nerdy outsider teen's pathos-ridden world view.

If either of them stopped focusing on their own self-satisfaction and actually put the art first, they could probably create something truly great, instead of a string of flawed diamonds in Kojima's case and a bucket of outright failures in Shyamalan's case (Unbreakable was awesome though.)
 

Garlador

Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,591
Your evidence didn't fulfill the claim I asked to be proved. It's also possible to not be the person making the initial claim and still move goalposts.

The claim was that people were declaring it GOTY before playing it, that post wasn't an example of that.
So a thread saying the game sounds like a GOTY before it released and is closed because it wasn't out and such threads are premature.... doesn't fit your criteria of people declaring it GOTY before playing it?

THAT sounds like moving goalposts.
 

hughesta

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,815
So a thread saying the game sounds like a GOTY before it released and is closed because it wasn't out and such threads are premature.... doesn't fit your criteria of people declaring it GOTY before playing it?

THAT sounds like moving goalposts.
tons of people call all sorts of games GOTY before they come out, I'm sure there have been plenty for FF7 and Cyberpunk both
 

jaymzi

Member
Jul 22, 2019
840
tons of people call all sorts of games GOTY before they come out, I'm sure there have been plenty for FF7 and Cyberpunk both
Calling FF7 remake, Cyberpunk 2077, TLOU II and BotW 2 GOTY before playing them is fine.

But calling a Kojima game GOTY prior to release means you are a blind Kojima cult fanboy. And will be used as justification for all the Kojima hate. /s
 

VanDoughnut

Member
Oct 30, 2017
965
Lol you dudes swear an industry without Kojima would be a good thing.

He’s making great games still, and has been for decades.

Death Stranding is a GOTY level game.
I’m glad Kojima is still around to make something so unique and unlike anything else, despite whatever “flaws” he might have.
 

Oticon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
713
Well, based on Kojima's output, every game he's directed has been either GOTY or a GOTY candidate so which director has a similar output with widespread acclaim and success like that? That's his Hollywood comparison.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,955
Arizona
I don’t like either’s work and I don’t get this one. Until Kojima finally tries his hands at a Hollywood movie and it’s an inevitable shitshow, they have nothing alike at all.
 

EntelechyFuff

Member
Nov 19, 2019
25
I think a huge difference is Shyamalan isnt really a provocateur and isn't nearly as experimental. Kojima might be more analogous to a [...] Von Trier.
This is the take I was looking for!

But really it's been stated a bunch in thread already that comparing across mediums doesn't hold up. Von Trier doesn't have genre-defining gameplay to fall back on when his narrative misses the mark.
 

Sei

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,618
LA
I would put Kojima in Alfonso Cuarón level.

Plenty of critically acclaimed work, and some passion work that is still well received but not that ground breaking.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,571
So they're similar because you liked their earlier work in two very different mediums? Its a pretty tenuous connection
 

raitosaito

Member
Oct 28, 2017
335
I'm legitimately curious about when it became the in thing to hate on Kojima? Like, when did that start, exactly? He's consistently made some incredible games, and while I've only played a few hours of Death Stranding, it's clear that he's created something different. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it's an intriguing game and concept.

He's a talented game designer, with a penchant for infusing his work with his eccentric world view. I don't understand the need to hate on him at the level I see in every thread about him. If you don't enjoy his work, just don't engage with it. I can't stand Michael Bay or Zack Snyder, so I don't waste my time consuming their content, and I certainly don't go out of my way to shit on them in every thread related to them. I guess I just feel like my energy could be spent towards discussing things that don't make my blood pressure rise or put me in a foul mood.
Out of every Kojima game ever release this is the most divisive for sure online, but nuance debates about video games is out of the window once any online personality inject their criticism into a product, and with Kojima a lot of pundits have used terms like “walking simulator”, or “film director” wannabe. People really don’t even notice they’re parroting the same shit everyone else is.

Now I’ve also engaged with people who have legitimately played and not like the game, but it hasn’t devolve into bullshit reductionist premise when we talk about why the design/story/etc isn’t up to par.

And maybe anecdotal evidence but my younger cousins and nephews seem to be all on the “this game is a walking simulator with anime story” talking point.
 

Matthew77

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
3,273
Massachusetts
Plenty of critically acclaimed work, and some passion work that is still well received but not that ground breaking.
That’s pretty on point I think, but Kojima’s gameplay always ropes me in no matter what he does I always have fun playing them.

Of course I always thought the stories were dogshit, just highly produced cinematic cutscenes and expository bullshit since the 3D era and it’s always glorious to have that train wreck wrapped around a good playing game.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
20,988
Lol, as if the hate of two of those people isn’t incredibly justified. I don’t like Kojima’s games or the ridiculous praise he gets, but putting him on the same level as Trump is certainly a take.

A bad one.
Trump is obviously far more hated here. But Kojima is at least as hated as Musk here, and even more hated than Pewdiepie, Mitch McConnell, etc. Seeing the obsessed level of hatred that is rampant on this forum over the last year has been bewildering to see.
 

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,841
Maybe it's just me, but I swear people who thinks that there are this HUGE contingent of people hell-bent on hating Kojima in here is just.... exaggerating things?
There definitely has been here on ERA. Way more than you’d think for a game designer who’s output for the past 20 years is generally considered to be extremely high quality.

You couldn’t go in a DS thread pre-release without seeing multiple “words and deeds!” shitposts, comments about how he’s up his own ass, how he’d be a terrible filmmaker etc.

I don’t know what it is. Maybe it’s MGSV really souring people, maybe it’s console wars due to DS being a PS exclusive or maybe it’s sexualization being a more called out topic these days (which makes sense, and DS shows a ton of improvement from him there anyway). Not sure, but it’s totally bizarre.
 

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,841
Nah, George changed movie industry, Kojima hasn’t come anywhere near the impact he made with his work. Nobody knows Kojima outside of nerdom, everyone has some inkling of laser swords and golden c3po.
Any story/cinematic game you love that came out after MG/MGS probably wouldn’t have been the same without it
 

OutofMana

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,125
California
Kojima is the Nicolas Winding Refn of the gaming industry. His stuff is visually stunning but the writing is always hit or miss. Neon Demon and Drive were amazing. Only God Forgives and Too Old to Die Young were such a slog to get through.
 

Matthew77

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
3,273
Massachusetts
Nah, George changed movie industry, Kojima hasn’t come anywhere near the impact he made with his work. Nobody knows Kojima outside of nerdom, everyone has some inkling of laser swords and golden c3po.
Industry influence is not judged by popularity or how many people know. It’s about how much your work affects and changes the work in the same industry, and no matter what you think of Lucas or Kojima they are both legends of changing their respective fields in multiple ways.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,943
Kojima’s talent is game design, not storytelling. He is one of the greatest most influential game designers in history. MGSV might have the best mechanics of any third person action adventure. He made one of the most memorable horror games of all time from a demo! He made walking interesting.

The man is still excellent at what he does.
Yup, Kojima is a brilliant designer. The man knows gameplay and what feels good. Upgrades truly feel meaningful, and that sense of progression is really there.