Is Kojima the M. Night Shyamalan of the gaming industry?

Jackie Chan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,086
No one even M. Night fans defended his weakest movies. They were disastrous. Even if you don't like Kojima's storytelling he definitely delivers solid games that are well designed and technically sound. Personally I like his story telling because he isn't afraid to swing hard even if he misses a lot of the time. Most games have such nothing stories that even though their writing is even more mediocre it doesn't matter.

So no... He's not really anything like M Night. I'd say he's more of a Terrence Malick that somehow is making blockbusters. Odd pacing and storytelling but extremely competent craftwork.
 

Icemonk191

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,505
Trump is obviously far more hated here. But Kojima is at least as hated as Musk here, and even more hated than Pewdiepie, Mitch McConnell, etc. Seeing the obsessed level of hatred that is rampant on this forum over the last year has been bewildering to see.
This is a monumentally bad take and you should feel bad about it.
 

Bish_Bosch

Member
Apr 30, 2018
140
This is the take I was looking for!

But really it's been stated a bunch in thread already that comparing across mediums doesn't hold up. Von Trier doesn't have genre-defining gameplay to fall back on when his narrative misses the mark.
There are other things to fall back on in film but the role of game design does make this rather distinct so agreed.
 

Strider0457

Member
Dec 27, 2017
1,622
Kojima’s talent is game design, not storytelling. He is one of the greatest most influential game designers in history. MGSV might have the best mechanics of any third person action adventure. He made one of the most memorable horror games of all time from a demo! He made walking interesting.

The man is still excellent at what he does.
This is true. As a game designer he's top tier. The creativity and interactivity of his game systems allows for a lot of terrific/idiotic shit (in the good way).

As a writer, he's a fucking hack. The twist ending of MGSV is 100% some Shyamalan-level trash. A lot of his writing is just pseudo-profound garbage like if Kyrie Irving's Instagram came to life and decided to make video games.
 

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,003
This is true. As a game designer he's top tier. The creativity and interactivity of his game systems allows for a lot of terrific/idiotic shit (in the good way).

As a writer, he's a fucking hack. The twist ending of MGSV is 100% some Shyamalan-level trash. A lot of his writing is just pseudo-profound garbage like if Kyrie Irving's Instagram came to life and decided to make video games.
MGSV’s twist could’ve been really cool if it was told better
 

fade

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,189
None of these directors helped change their industry. Kojima helped pave the way into making games more cinematic. Many aspects of Metal Gear Solid were never done before and copied ad nauseum until it became standard. While there certainly is some overlap you can't judge a game designer on the same criteria as a director/writer. These comparisons are hilarious.
 

srtrestre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,204
Kojima is the Kevin Smith of gaming. Ocelot and Snake are his Jay and Silent Bob.

Death Stranding was his Tusk.
 

feonando

Member
Mar 26, 2019
802
I'm legitimately curious about when it became the in thing to hate on Kojima? Like, when did that start, exactly? He's consistently made some incredible games, and while I've only played a few hours of Death Stranding, it's clear that he's created something different. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it's an intriguing game and concept.

He's a talented game designer, with a penchant for infusing his work with his eccentric world view. I don't understand the need to hate on him at the level I see in every thread about him. If you don't enjoy his work, just don't engage with it. I can't stand Michael Bay or Zack Snyder, so I don't waste my time consuming their content, and I certainly don't go out of my way to shit on them in every thread related to them. I guess I just feel like my energy could be spent towards discussing things that don't make my blood pressure rise or put me in a foul mood.
I think is not just a thing.

After the fallout from Konami, the whole #fuckonami and the creation of his studio there was a time were his status was elevated to the point it was a bit tiring. So that along the hype for years of Death Stranding were some even proclaimed it as game of the whatever year despite only seeing teaser trailers.

That time passed and is now the opposite.

Is like the whole "Zelda cycle"; among others. A coincidence of sorts, were is a bit more common seeing people talk about how much Breath the Wild sucks, despite how a few years ago you could only read about how it was the best game ever.

There's just not a particular moment, and more of just (some) people moving on: a vocal minority hyped his existence before, a vocal minority bashes him at every time they can now.

Is quite normal around "the internet"...sadly.
 

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,362
JP
I don’t believe anyone could actually dislike GODjima-sama’s experiences (we shouldn’t even call them games, it’s too low of a term for his work), it has just became trendy to hate on the Legend Himself. That’s what happens when you’re a true Tenside, I guess.

Tenside means Genius in Nippongo.
 

Arex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,887
Singapore
Wtf MGSV is excellent, Death Stranding may be not for everyone but its gameplay is also quite strong in different way. You can't really fault him as a game designer. His story telling do sometimes go a bit too much lol, but I'm a Kojima fan so idk :P
 

Flipyap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,916
I don’t believe anyone could actually dislike GODjima-sama’s experiences (we shouldn’t even call them games, it’s too low of a term for his work), it has just became trendy to hate on the Legend Himself. That’s what happens when you’re a true Tenside, I guess.

Tenside means Genius in Nippongo.
Please, show some respect for the art form, they're called ludes.

Kojima Productions
From Sapiens to Fapiens
 

Seeya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,209
This. Shyamalan had two good stories in him, at least, which is more than Kojima has managed in 30+ years.
Imagine being the poster that made this post, and actually believing it.

Kojima has written many good stories and he’s one hell of a visual director

MG2, MGS1-3, Death Stranding, P.T, Snatcher, Policenoughts,
 

upinsmoke

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,583
I think at this point this Kojima hate has become a worrying trend, I'm not sure about other parts of the internet but this part, Resetera there should be legitimate concern about it because it stems from more than him making a game that people dont like or aren't interested in.

It's usually game "x" is bad, rarely is there so many articles, threads etc directed at a producer of a game. If someone makes a bad game the developer as a whole is referenced. Look at the negative reviews, the negative word of mouth, you hear Kojima mentioned more than KojiPro or DS really. I mean Giantbomb can permanently fuck off as far as I'm concerned. Fair enough if one single person made a game (and even then the targeted abuse and hatred would still be unfitting) but there is more to it than that. I've played far worse games than DS this generation, never once have any of those games developers been targeted personally as much as Kojima.
 
Last edited:

jaymzi

Member
Jul 22, 2019
904
I think at this point this Kojima hate has become a worrying trend, I'm not sure about other parts of the internet but this part, Resetera there should be legitimate concern about it because it stems from more than him making a game that people dont like or aren't interested in.

It's usually game "x" is bad, rarely is there so many articles, threads etc directed at a producer of a game. If someone makes a bad game the developer as a whole is referenced. Look at the negative reviews, the negative word of mouth, you hear Kojima mentioned more than KojiPro or DS really. I mean Giantbomb can permanently fuck off as far as I'm concerned. Fair enough if one single person made a game (and even then the targeted abuse and hatred would still be unfitting) but there is more to it than that. I've played far worse games than DS this generation, never once have any of those games developers been targeted personally as much as Kojima.
It's funny too, considering his haters goes on and on about him not crediting his team members enough and that his games are a combined effort of everyone involved. But whenever they criticize the game, it is all targeted at Kojima himself.

I mean it is not surprising. The logic of a hater is that there is no logic. This topic is proof enough.
 

Seeya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,209
I'm legitimately curious about when it became the in thing to hate on Kojima? Like, when did that start, exactly? He's consistently made some incredible games, and while I've only played a few hours of Death Stranding, it's clear that he's created something different. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it's an intriguing game and concept.

He's a talented game designer, with a penchant for infusing his work with his eccentric world view. I don't understand the need to hate on him at the level I see in every thread about him. If you don't enjoy his work, just don't engage with it. I can't stand Michael Bay or Zack Snyder, so I don't waste my time consuming their content, and I certainly don't go out of my way to shit on them in every thread related to them. I guess I just feel like my energy could be spent towards discussing things that don't make my blood pressure rise or put me in a foul mood.
It has always been a thing since pretty much MGS1. Personally I think it’s a bunch of people not appreciating the blending of games with overt cinematic intent and uneven writing moment to moment. He’s simultaneously tracendent from the usual video game writhing and very much a propogator of it, while still generally crafting incredibly effective stories that deal in themes and ideas well beyond most of his peers. He sticks out and is successful, so he attracts detractors.

Back in the mid 90s he was already predicting the shitshow that the internet was going to cause today. Hence MGS2.

Eh, his writing is more on the Tommy Wiseau level.
The naturalness of dialogue maybe, but absolutely not in any other way.
 

Twinguistics

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
478
No, he's the Kanye West for the same reasons. Great early career but then he's gone weird and full of his own self importance. His new work now divides.
 

Yuntu

Member
Nov 7, 2019
401
Germany
Kojima is consistent in quality unlike him, so no.

Edit: wait Kojima getting compared to Tommy Wiseau? Come the fuck on lmao
 

Fjordson

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,232
Huh? Kojima's influence in gaming is huge and he's made multiple games that are considered among the greatest of all time. And even before Metal Gear Solid he was doing good work.

Can't really think of any similarities to M. Knight.
 

Patitoloco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,530
I see Kojima threads are getting in that special bin of ResetERA, along with Epic Game Store threads and TLJ threads. Lovely.
 

Conan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
180
Indeed, Tommy Wiseau has far greater understanding of his chosen medium. He certainly wouldn't interrupt a movie to have characters recite wikipedia entries for half an hour.
Anybody who thinks they have the definition for what this medium is or has to always be are kidding themselves.
 

Darkstorne

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,111
England
I'm legitimately curious about when it became the in thing to hate on Kojima? Like, when did that start, exactly? He's consistently made some incredible games, and while I've only played a few hours of Death Stranding, it's clear that he's created something different. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it's an intriguing game and concept.

He's a talented game designer, with a penchant for infusing his work with his eccentric world view. I don't understand the need to hate on him at the level I see in every thread about him. If you don't enjoy his work, just don't engage with it. I can't stand Michael Bay or Zack Snyder, so I don't waste my time consuming their content, and I certainly don't go out of my way to shit on them in every thread related to them. I guess I just feel like my energy could be spent towards discussing things that don't make my blood pressure rise or put me in a foul mood.
Because like Molyneux, he dared to talk passionately about his latest creations, and when they weren’t 90+ Metacritic darlings that was enough for some gamers to write off the insane number of industry-defining titles released in the past and label these developers as hacks.

I like to tell myself it’s just a vocal minority that do this though, and that the vast majority of gamers respect these developers immensely for the fantastic games they’ve produced over the decades that they’ve worked in this industry. It’s easier on my sanity that way...
 

Dussck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,466
The Netherlands
I think he's more like the Tarantino of gaming. Coming up with original stuff, but still have his own style to whatever he makes.

But maybe I've weird taste, because I think the best M Night movie is The Village..
 

Sailent

Member
Mar 2, 2018
1,472
As someone who absolutely adores his earlier works (especially MGS3) while strongly disliking everything he has done since then... I don't think he's far off. But that's just me.
Your "strongly dislike" doesn't apply when his games are worldwide acclaimed and almost never goes down the 70 score. I don't mean he keeps releasing masterpieces, but he didn't have a single flop yet. And by flop I mean 50% recommendations or lower.
 

Soneji

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,454
Kojima to me is similar to Lucas and Nomura, amazing at certain elements of their medium but absolutely hack writers
 

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,422
I enjoy Kojimas work, and I feel I identified 3 camps of “Kojima hate”

1) The people who don’t like his writing.

He does have a rather unique style to his writing usually bursting at the seems with exposition and on the nose imagery/word use.

2) The people who think he is an egomaniac

This I think is the most common camp of Kojima hate on era. People don’t like the fact the man is proud of his work. They get mad when he makes a claim like “I want to make a new genre” or “Americans probably won’t like death Stranding much because they prefer shooters”. To these people they view him as an arrogant egomaniac... which is further from the truth because according to almost everyone who worked on DS in terms of acting, Kojima is incredibly open for collaboration and working with others. Basically people in this group have hard core “Bitch eating crackers” syndrome

3) People mad that DS is about delivering packages because they wanted a spiritual Metal Gear successor or Silent Hills

Because DS is not the most conventional game, people are mad he hyped this game up and think it was “wasted resources”

These are the 3 basic camps, but Era falls mostly under the second one for reasons to hate Kojima
You forgot 4) People (mostly women) who are goddamn sick and tired of Kojima's disgusting misogyny getting a pass (mostly by men) because "ohoho he's just a wacky genius, you can't criticise him!"

I bet M. Shyamalan isn't quite as misogynistic, at least.

And yeah I think George Lucas is probably a better comparison.
 

vedrua

Member
Oct 26, 2019
142
I think MGSV is on par with the early MGS games. I think it’s one of the best games of the generation. Probably top three for me.

Does anyone think that about modern Shyamalan movies?
This is not about trashing Kojim'as games, but poiting how bad he is at writting despite having huge ambitions about it.

I mean, the dialogues in DS are just awkward. Which does not mean the game is bad itself, not at all, but the narrative dimension he insists so much on is ridiculous. As a French I'd say he is the Luc Besson of the gaming industry.
 

daxy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,621
You forgot 4) People (mostly women) who are goddamn sick and tired of Kojima's disgusting misogyny getting a pass (mostly by men) because "ohoho he's just a wacky genius, you can't criticise him!"


For someone as widely lauded as he is, his games sure have a lot of off-putting stuff in them that really make no sense other than appeasing his seemingly insatiable horniness. The thing about Kojima (prod.) asking the Beauty and the Beast (MGS4) actors to mo-cap in the nude cemented my general discomfort around Kojima's work beyond any reasonable doubt. Don't even want to touch on anything from the games that came after, even though he really peaked there. Didn't play MGS3 but I'm sure it was a doozy as well.
 
Last edited:

nib95

Member
Oct 28, 2017
11,900
I'm legitimately curious about when it became the in thing to hate on Kojima? Like, when did that start, exactly? He's consistently made some incredible games, and while I've only played a few hours of Death Stranding, it's clear that he's created something different. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it's an intriguing game and concept.

He's a talented game designer, with a penchant for infusing his work with his eccentric world view. I don't understand the need to hate on him at the level I see in every thread about him. If you don't enjoy his work, just don't engage with it. I can't stand Michael Bay or Zack Snyder, so I don't waste my time consuming their content, and I certainly don't go out of my way to shit on them in every thread related to them. I guess I just feel like my energy could be spent towards discussing things that don't make my blood pressure rise or put me in a foul mood.
I think it's pretty clear that much of it started when he went exclusive with the new studio, and subsequently also started getting a lot of reverence and support from media and certain industry Insiders (eg Geoff at TGA).

In other words, partly a combination of platform wars nonsense and jealousy. Some people really can't stand the fact that Kojima is respected and so often referred to as a creative genius etc, and it's not exactly surprising so many of those people that show such sentiment, happen to game on predominantly other platforms, especially on this forum.

Whilst Kojima is clearly arrogant to some degree, as so many auters are, there's somewhat of a double standard to the politics of it all, for example, Kojima still isn't nearly as vitriolic or crass as say Kamiya, who happens to not get near the same venom from people on these forums.
 

vedrua

Member
Oct 26, 2019
142
It's funny to see how much we all become extreme when it comes to Kojima. I mean, both fanboys and haters are very vocal about him.

Yes, It's possible to really dislike how shallow and yet pretentious his narration is. The way he has to scream his artistic ambition but at the same time YOU PEOPLE DONT FORGET TO DRINK ENERGY BULLSHIT.

There's no need to be part of a terrible and jealous conspiracy to feel antipathy about what he is. However, whatever we think about him, it's just completely stupid to deny he is both very creative and very talented when it comes to video games. All his work can certanely not be summed up to all the narrative crap. In terms of gameplay, of vision, he is obviously really important for the industry.

Kojima is not arrogant as "author", he is just very bad at it. And you don't need to care about the silly plateform wars. You can simply feel very unconfortable, as a gamer, because he seems to want video games to become bad and poorly-written cinema. It's exactly the same problem with David Cage.
 

NLCPRESIDENT

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,856
Midwest
Why is Kojima all of a sudden bad? Death Stranding is the only game ive seen of his where people are divided on. Metal Gear , Metal Gear 2 , Metal Gear Solid 1-5 , Boktai and Zone of the Enders were all decent games. Shyamalan has a lot more crappy movies than good ones.
He is gonna get hate until he starts back making multi platform games again. That simple.