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Is Mobile Suit Gundam: Char's Counterattack any good?

Oct 25, 2017
19,560
Honestly the trifecta of Zeta-ZZ-CCA is some of the most boppinest shit in Gundam and I'd argue 80's anime OPs/EDs/Insert Songs in general, and that's to say nothing of the actual (masterful) soundtracks of those entries.
Zeta is helped by using 3 Neill Sedaka songs, they knew how to create some great music for those shows though, they hold up even to this day.
 

Bob_Coffee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
538
It's the end of the Amuro x Char arc, you should watch it if only for that reason.

And the ending theme is splendid

PS : but my gosh are the production values weak for a 88 movie.
Thats an unfair comparison when you consider what else came out in 1988 namely akira. Cca's animation still holds up today imho.
 

Char

Member
Dec 9, 2017
156
There's just so much Gundam out there I don't know where to start. Any suggestions?
I will always always always recommend the English dub of the original 1979 TV show, Mobile Suit Gundam. (Provided you don't speak Japanese.)

The dub is legit good, and the TV show is superior to the edited Movie trilogy in terms of pacing and just overall content. If you must watch the movie trilogy over the TV series, watch it subbed.


The English dub for the TV series is pretty good just in terms of sound quality also, and combined with the recent Blu Ray release, it makes watching a late 70's animated show easier for people that have a tougher time watching things with older, hyper-limited animation budgets/techniques and otherwise crunchy/clippy audio.
I would personally recommend the movie trilogy over the TV series. I had an easier time digesting the older style when I didn't feel like I was being bombarded by giant robot/toy of the week in the TV series. (That means no Gundam Hammer or G-Armor in the movies. Yay!!!) Any of the finer details of the story or characters that were cut out or shortened in the movies I just picked up later when I revisited the original TV series. (There are things in the TV series that I did find superior to the movies)

(I think the death of Lalah Sune was executed better in the TV series then the movie.)

However, if you're able to tolerate some of the sillier toy aspects of the TV series, then it's perfectly fine to watch it over the movies. :)
 

moustascheman

Member
Oct 26, 2017
966
Canada
I have very mixed feelings on CCA. The movie itself looks gorgeous and has some very well animated fights. The characterization though feels very strange coming off of Zeta and ZZ, especially with how Char is portrayed. The mecha designs however are absolutely fantastic, with the Nu Gundam being one of my favorite designs in the franchise.
 

Llyranor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,710
Absolutely gorgeous animation. If you just want to see a cool space battle, the film offers that.

But, it is not a good movie. For starters, the two new teen protagonists are some of the dumbest craps ever. Half the film is wasted on them.
 

MistaTwo

SNK Gaming Division Studio 1
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
2,178
It's worth watching if only just for the ending and some of the suit designs and animation.

However, it really is a kind of boring but not terrible movie. The plot can really drag and most of the characters it focuses on outside of Amuro/Char are all terrible.
I've fallen asleep watching it a bunch of times as a result.

Zeta Char is best Char.


No lies detected.
 

Gundam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,630
The consensus of this thread seems to be

visuals = good

story = bad

I don't know if I 100% agree with this, but I get where it comes from.
IMO, if you want a true example a Gundam film that's absolutely drop dead gorgeous but is otherwise putrid shit in terms of story, look no further than Gundam F91.
 

Ladioss

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
847
Thats an unfair comparison when you consider what else came out in 1988 namely akira. Cca's animation still holds up today imho.
Ah ah, yes, it's exactly what I had in mind :) unfair comparaison, given that Akira was in production for a good chunk of the decade IIRC. Still, there are a lot of 80s movies or OVA with better animation than CCA - Macross DYRL, Project Eden, To-y, Crusher Joe, Lupin III Fuuma conspiracy, Galaxy Express 999, etc.
 

Hercule

Member
Jun 20, 2018
1,898
People loved Quattro in Z and it made a lot of people forget that Char was a monster. I'm not one of those people and CCA is awesome. You should watch it. I think that it's a good ending to their rivalry.
When was Char ever a monster? I have yet to see Gundam Origin but he wasn't pure evil in Gundam 1979.
 

MistaTwo

SNK Gaming Division Studio 1
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
2,178
I didn't say pure evil, but he does start out as a manipulative sociopath that murders the Zabi family.
I mean... the Zabi family are mass murderers of literally billions of people at that point.
Always saw Char as more of an anti-hero personally.

Though, the new Origin mangas/movies definitely show off his sociopath side even more.
 

Kars

Member
Oct 29, 2017
98
Canada
No, it feels super rushed and they put a ton of shit in it.

It does have a fantastic fight near the end so I guess there's that.

If your already invested in the UC check it out, it's not terrible, I just wanted more from it.
 

Hercule

Member
Jun 20, 2018
1,898
I didn't say pure evil, but he does start out as a manipulative sociopath that murders the Zabi family.

The OG Char is a very flawed character but he still has a redeeming side to him. I always found Char in Zeta a logical step in the road the character takes. CCA ignores all the devolpment he underwent in Zeta and basically makes Char a space Hitler. It's really disappointing.
 

RangerBAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
719
I mean... the Zabi family are mass murderers of literally billions of people at that point.
Always saw Char as more of an anti-hero personally.

Though, the new Origin mangas/movies definitely show off his sociopath side even more.
Well, I added more to the post while your replying. I realized I might be told I was defending the Zabis. Gihren is literally Hitler. However, Char's motives wasn't to save the Solar System from Space Nazis. He would have killed his own sister if he had to. He kills the Zabis but takes their place as a dictator in CCA that was willing to kill billions too. The Origin does show him as a monster though so it lines up well, in my opinion.

That's true, the OG Char is a very flawed character but he still has a redeeming side to him. I always found Char in Zeta a logical step in the road the character takes. CCA ignores all the devolpment he underwent in Zeta and basically makes Char a space Hitler. It's really disappointing.
But what he's really doing is making back room deals to build up his military machine and prepare for the dropping of Axis. He's oiling that machine in ZZ, all the while letting Haman (I LOVE YOU, HAMAN) do whatever damage she could. Ultimately, it's beneficial for him that the Titans are defeated, so we get nice guy Quattro which is just his charming but manipulative side. Newtypes are extremely magnetic.
 
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Hercule

Member
Jun 20, 2018
1,898
Well, I added more to the post while your replying. I realized I might be told I was defending the Zabis. Gihren is literally Hitler. However, Char's motives wasn't to save the Solar System from Space Nazis. He would have killed his own sister if he had to. He kills the Zabis but takes their place as a dictator in CCA that was willing to kill billions too. The Origin does show him as a monster though so it lines up well, in my opinion.
That's the thing I dislike from CCA. Char had come such a long way in Zeta and CCA ignores all of that.
 

RangerBAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
719
That's the thing I dislike from CCA. Char had come such a long way in Zeta and CCA ignores all of that.
Read my edit above to see why I think it's kind of logical. If we assume the next step was always Neo Zeon, it makes sense to me. I really think Quattro was just a giant but smart ploy.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,769
Brooklyn
My opinion on this is law.


I both love it and hate it.

There are some really strange things in here, just in terms of coherence and pacing, something feels off. Lots of new characters that dont really go anywhere, and some questionable cameos from obscure returning characters that somehow got priority over much more beloved legacy characters.

Feels more like a sequel to the original tv series while ignoring Zeta and ZZ, but still makes more sense if you watch those. It's a culmination of years of story, while also kind of being a narrow payoff, for only a handful of characters. Idk, its hard to explain, but it's a really important piece of the UC timeline while almost feeling seperate from a lot of it at times.

There are some irritations that I had with the movie the first few times i saw it, but multiple watch throughs really smooths those things out for the most part. Certain characters act in ways that don't really make sense in isolation with what information the movie gives you, so there's some external speculation or conjecture required i feel to really make CCA fit nicely between ZZ and Unicorn.

Ultimately any gripes i have with the movie are washed away by the main event and climax of the film, and the banger credits song that plays. The animation is excellent and looks mighty crisp on the Blu Ray, and its cool to watch 16:9 Gundam for the first time. Its hype as shit, and has some great MS designs. IMO one of the greatest conflicts/battles in Anime, and if Gundam were mainstream, one of the most iconic. (For western audiences I mean, its already iconic in the mother land)

I firmly believe you love it, hate it, or do both at the same time.
This is law.
 

Quinton

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
8,771
The Research Triangle
I only ever watched it when I was like 16 and it first came out on DVD here, but my friends and I watched it so many times that I feel like I am almost still a reliable source anyway. We'd only seen the original show and the OVAs which had been popping up on Toonami around that time, so we hadn't watched Zeta or ZZ. It felt weird skipping so much story, but eh.

Anyway, I liked it alright and my friend and I bought Nu-Gundam and Sazabi and pretended I was Amuro and he was Char, so that's... um, something that we did. I thought it was a little rough with its IDEALSPEAK, but that's a common problem, I guess. The action was great and the body count impressed me. I had some issues with the ending, but they've been resolved thanks to Unicorn.

In retrospect though CCA kind of screws up Char's characterization something awful IMO. Zeta Char is the best.
 

MistaTwo

SNK Gaming Division Studio 1
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
2,178
Well, I added more to the post while your replying. I realized I might be told I was defending the Zabis. Gihren is literally Hitler. However, Char's motives wasn't to save the Solar System from Space Nazis. He would have killed his own sister if he had to. He kills the Zabis but takes their place as a dictator in CCA that was willing to kill billions too. The Origin does show him as a monster though so it lines up well, in my opinion.
Yeah, I always saw him as an anti-hero whose quest for revenge eventually leaves him warped as well.

I don't see his heel turn in CCA as strange or unbelievable as others, though I do think they did a sloppy job selling it in the movie.
He basically has to deal with corruption and bullshit on both sides during Z despite actually trying (or pretending) to work towards peace.
 

wbloop

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,110
Germany
Bit of a side question, but I only got into anime a few years ago and see Gundam as quite intimidating due to the amount of content I could watch. I always wanted to at least watch UC Gundam, but I never knew where to start.

I heard that the Mobile Suit Gundam original trilogy, which condensed the original show into three movies, is the better starting point for newcomers. Is that correct or should I go through the entirety of 0079?
 

Quinton

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
8,771
The Research Triangle
Bit of a side question, but I only got into anime a few years ago and see Gundam as quite intimidating due to the amount of content I could watch. I always wanted to at least watch UC Gundam, but I never knew where to start.

I heard that the Mobile Suit Gundam original trilogy, which condensed the original show into three movies, is the better starting point for newcomers. Is that correct or should I go through the entirety of 0079?
Personally I'd recommend going through the full show instead. There are a few rough episodes but the pacing is so much better. (A more "hardcore" fan idea I've tried before to much success is to watch the original show up until a certain point and then switch over to the third movie, since it has lots of lovely new[er] animation, but don't bother with that your first time; keep things simple.)

The original show has some great timeless themes and it's pretty damn mature overall. If you enjoy it, you might check out the recently-released Gundam: The Origin movie series. They're prequels to the show done very well for the most part and it's awesome seeing these iconic characters in HD with an appreciable modern budget.

From there, there is plenty of stuff to move forward with, and a lot of it rocks.
 

MistaTwo

SNK Gaming Division Studio 1
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
2,178
Bit of a side question, but I only got into anime a few years ago and see Gundam as quite intimidating due to the amount of content I could watch. I always wanted to at least watch UC Gundam, but I never knew where to start.

I heard that the Mobile Suit Gundam original trilogy, which condensed the original show into three movies, is the better starting point for newcomers. Is that correct or should I go through the entirety of 0079?
It really depends on how much time you want to dedicate to it. I personally think it's better to watch the full series,
but it's not a must. The movie trilogy gives you more than enough basis to watch the rest of the UC stuff.

I would personally choose one or the other and then move into some of the OVAs that are based in the early UC timeline such as
War in the Pocket, 08th MS team, and 0083 Stardust Memory. The recent Origin movies are also highly recommended.
From there you will want to move into Zeta and if you are still interested continue on into some of the post-Zeta stuff.

Whatever you do, don't watch the Zeta movies though. Unlike the original trilogy, they are nigh unwatchable and the series is the only way to go.
 

MochaKoffee

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,311
CCA is fine. I don't really mind Quess, and Char's transformation from Quattro to CCA never struck me as *too* out there.

Bit of a side question, but I only got into anime a few years ago and see Gundam as quite intimidating due to the amount of content I could watch. I always wanted to at least watch UC Gundam, but I never knew where to start.

I heard that the Mobile Suit Gundam original trilogy, which condensed the original show into three movies, is the better starting point for newcomers. Is that correct or should I go through the entirety of 0079?
Either or, you'll be fine. There are worthwhile things in the TV show that got cut from the films (The salt sidequest and Quality Zaku), but it's mostly stuff that you wouldn't realize was missing from the story. Or go read the Origin manga if you have some deep pockets, I guess.

Whatever your choice, you could either detour into some of the later productions that take place after/during the OYW (08th MS Team, 0080, 0083) afterwards, or go into Zeta straight away. Or do both, I suppose.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,844
Canada
People discussing the whole Char being radically different from Zeta to CCA it is kind of explained a bit at least in extended stuff such as games etc. Char admits that he does not want to have happen with what happened with Kamille at the end of Zeta, so he wants everybody to become Newtypes, so they could all understand each other and prevent a war like the Gryps conflict. Granted he is using a war essentially to accomplish this so he is a hypocrite in a way.
 

Char

Member
Dec 9, 2017
156
I'll always have beef with the movie because I never bought how Char went from his Zeta persona to full on genocidal maniac with no real justification.
It was such a weird departure from Char in Zeta, and fuck, the human evolution nonsense from Char was pretentious as fuck (Zeta was guilty as well).
The OG Char is a very flawed character but he still has a redeeming side to him. I always found Char in Zeta a logical step in the road the character takes. CCA ignores all the devolpment he underwent in Zeta and basically makes Char a space Hitler. It's really disappointing.
I definitely agree with the post below:

Yeah, I always saw him as an anti-hero whose quest for revenge eventually leaves him warped as well.

I don't see his heel turn in CCA as strange or unbelievable as others, though I do think they did a sloppy job selling it in the movie.
He basically has to deal with corruption and bullshit on both sides during Z despite actually trying (or pretending) to work towards peace.
Char has tried every reasonable method to defeat his enemy, The Federation and its capitalism, so he conceives of one final solution to swiftly and truly end it once and for all: destroy the birthplace of capitalism and the headquarters of its society, Earth, to finally pave the way for Spacenoids to form a new society that is equitable for all people.

Char is also feeling vindicated by the destruction of everything he cared about in his battles against the neoliberal late capitalist order. The neoliberal elite, Anaheim Electronics, manipulated the AEUG by propping them up to stem the tide of fascism and preserve the status quo. Amuro has further betrayed Char as he once again stands complicit with The Federation. Then there's the deaths or crippling of everybody else he's cared for. Finally and most importantly, Char is trapped in a state of arrested emotional development since he never cultivated normal, healthy relationships. The closest he's come to an emotional confidant was Lalah. He was able to find another emotional anchor in his relationship with Kamille as that pushed him to develop a more peaceful role as mentor and eventually leader as the figurehead of the AEUG. All that was eventually taken away from him. His most pivotal years of emotional development in his youth were spent focused on war and revenge. He's just returning to what he's most familiar with and wrestling with these emotional traumas in Char's Counterattack.

IMO, if you want a true example a Gundam film that's absolutely drop dead gorgeous but is otherwise putrid shit in terms of story, look no further than Gundam F91.
Eh, I didn't think the story to F91 was that bad. I'd probably put it on the same level as Char's Counterattack. Both movies have cringeworthy shit, but the thematic cores to each and contributions to the larger animated story are ultimately pretty decent, so I can't really hate them fully.

F91 after all dovetails nicely into the animated UC's larger story of a society succumbing to aristocracy after being jaded by the failures of the late stage capitalism of The Federation, the Zabi's hijacking of Zeon's communist revolution, and the populist fascism of The Titans and Neo Zeon(s). It's like watching Rome fall apart. :P



Bit of a side question, but I only got into anime a few years ago and see Gundam as quite intimidating due to the amount of content I could watch. I always wanted to at least watch UC Gundam, but I never knew where to start.

I heard that the Mobile Suit Gundam original trilogy, which condensed the original show into three movies, is the better starting point for newcomers. Is that correct or should I go through the entirety of 0079?
I'll quote what I posted earlier:

I would personally recommend the movie trilogy over the TV series. I had an easier time digesting the older style when I didn't feel like I was being bombarded by giant robot/toy of the week in the TV series. (That means no Gundam Hammer or G-Armor in the movies. Yay!!!) Any of the finer details of the story or characters that were cut out or shortened in the movies I just picked up later when I revisited the original TV series. (There are things in the TV series that I did find superior to the movies)

(I think the death of Lalah Sune was executed better in the TV series then the movie.)

However, if you're able to tolerate some of the sillier toy aspects of the TV series, then it's perfectly fine to watch it over the movies. :)
And like others have said, don't watch the Zeta Gundam movies. Unlike the OG movie trilogy, they actually fundamentally change the story for the worst. (Which is a shame because there's some nice animation updates to Zeta.) :(
 
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MistaTwo

SNK Gaming Division Studio 1
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
2,178
Char has tried every reasonable method to defeat his enemy, The Federation and its capitalism, so he conceives of one final solution to swiftly and truly end it once and for all: destroy the birthplace of capitalism and the headquarters of its society, Earth, to finally pave the way for Spacenoids to form a new society that is equitable for all people.

Char is also feeling vindicated by the destruction of everything he cared about in his battles against the neoliberal late capitalist order. The neoliberal elite, Anaheim Electronics, manipulated the AEUG by propping them up to stem the tide of fascism and preserve the status quo. Amuro has further betrayed Char as he once again stands complicit with The Federation. Then there's the deaths or crippling of everybody else he's cared for. Finally and most importantly, Char is trapped in a state of arrested emotional development since he never cultivated normal, healthy relationships. The closest he's come to an emotional confidant was Lalah. He was able to find another emotional anchor in his relationship with Kamille as that pushed him to develop a more peaceful role as mentor and eventually leader as the figurehead of the AEUG. All that was eventually taken away from him. His most pivotal years of emotional development in his youth were spent focused on war and revenge. He's just returning to what he's most familiar with and wrestling with these emotional traumas in Char's Counterattack.
Yeah this is a nice write-up that sums up how I have always judged Char's character development.
I do think what happened to Kamille at the end of Zeta is what really broke him.

They should remake the whole original, z and cca gundam in unicorn or origin style :x
You will get Hollywood Gundam starring Michael Cera as Amuro and you will like it!
 

Hercule

Member
Jun 20, 2018
1,898
Is what happened with Kamille still canon? Games and other media always go with the movie version.
 

Aries Zeigald

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,980
Watch Unicorn OVA first, then pretend that ZZ and CCA are prequels, that way you can appreciate their importance regardless of what you perceive their quality to be.
 

Euler

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,558
I enjoy CCA for what it is, but it has a bunch of flaws. Nu Gundam and Sazabi are fantastic though.
 

MistaTwo

SNK Gaming Division Studio 1
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
2,178
Is what happened with Kamille still canon? Games and other media always go with the movie version.
Really? I thought they tended to follow the Z-ZZ arc where he did go comatose for years but eventually recovers, thanks
to Judau's Newtype swag or something. I don't really know as ZZ is one of the few series I haven't managed to finish...
 

Zen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,865
It had promise, but ultimately it was kind of a let down for me. OG Mobile Suit Gundam is still far and away the most cohesive and well written show, with the best action and cast despite its age and the relative simplicity of its mobile suits. Amuro's and Char's characters are all over the place after that with little consistency.
 

MistaTwo

SNK Gaming Division Studio 1
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
2,178
Better question: where does it rank relative to the Gundam Wing series?
Gundam Wing is enjoyable but flawed. It will always be a guilty pleasure of mine but it really does have a ton of issues. It will always be worth it for the Relena/Heero scenes.

Any Wing fans should check out the recent manga, Glory of the Losers. It fixes up a bunch of plot holes and improves the pacing.
 

cj_iwakura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,458
Coral Springs, FL
I just watched it. The animation and capship fighting is next level, but the plot is wafer thin(which is about what I expect from Gundam).

"Humans just need time to grow! I'm not impatient like YOU!"

And Quess joins Char because he's cool, I guess? Okay then.


Honestly the best Gundam thing I've seen is still 08th MS Team because it doesn't have any of the Newtype baggage.
 

MistaTwo

SNK Gaming Division Studio 1
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
2,178
I just watched it. The animation and capship fighting is next level, but the plot is wafer thin(which is about what I expect from Gundam).

"Humans just need time to grow! I'm not impatient like YOU!"

And Quess joins Char because he's cool, I guess? Okay then.


Honestly the best Gundam thing I've seen is still 08th MS Team because it doesn't have any of the Newtype baggage.

It’s never worth your time to actually try to apply any logic to female characters in Gundam. At least she’s a stupid teenager so I can believe it. I meant it is the goddamn Red Comet himself. Recoa in Zeta is the one that really bothers me. How many times does she switch sides?

Regarding the newtype stuff, I still think 0083 does it better in a way. 08th is easily one of my favorites but Shiro is still a shonen style “genius” character. He never struggles and is basically good at everything.

Kou is a sucker at the start and gets styled on over and over. And even when he does get skills at the end he’s doping himself up to stay in the fight and shit. Always liked how gritty it feels at that point in the story.
 

cj_iwakura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,458
Coral Springs, FL
It’s never worth your time to actually try to apply any logic to Female characters in Gundam. At least she’s a stupid teenager so I can believe it. I meant it is the goddamn Red Comet himself. Recoa in Zeta is the one that really bothers me. How many times does she switch sides?

Regarding the newtype stuff, I still think 0083 does it better in a way. 08th is easily one of my favorites but Shiro is still a shonen style “genius” character. He never struggles and is basically good at everything.

Kou is a sucker at the start and gets styled on over and over. And even when he does get skills at the end he’s doping himself up to stay in the fight and shit. Always liked how gritty it feels at that point in the story.
There should be an alternate ending when Quess lets Amuro shoot him.

"No, don't!"
"He's gonna destroy earth!"
"Oh. Okay then! *BANG*"

[And Neo-Zeon collapsed without Char. END, roll credits.]
 

sibarraz

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
9,698
It’s never worth your time to actually try to apply any logic to female characters in Gundam. At least she’s a stupid teenager so I can believe it. I meant it is the goddamn Red Comet himself. Recoa in Zeta is the one that really bothers me. How many times does she switch sides?

Regarding the newtype stuff, I still think 0083 does it better in a way. 08th is easily one of my favorites but Shiro is still a shonen style “genius” character. He never struggles and is basically good at everything.

Kou is a sucker at the start and gets styled on over and over. And even when he does get skills at the end he’s doping himself up to stay in the fight and shit. Always liked how gritty it feels at that point in the story.
Recoa must be by far one the worst female characters that I had ever seen

Specially since her motivation is “I’m a female and I need a men”
 

Occam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,510
The OG Char is a very flawed character but he still has a redeeming side to him. I always found Char in Zeta a logical step in the road the character takes. CCA ignores all the devolpment he underwent in Zeta and basically makes Char a space Hitler. It's really disappointing.
Yes, it's idiotic. That's not the path the Char we saw in Zeta would have taken. Tomino really screwed the pooch.