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methane47

Member
Oct 28, 2017
879
Nahh Cant happen. Current situation is. Republicans and Non-Republicans
Republicans have a pretty universal identity and Democrats are just Anti-<That>

So its not really possible to have a "halfway" Anti-<That> party. Anyone taht isn't fully engrosed in GOP ideology is a Democrat.
Its the reason why when Dems get in power they can't get anything done, because The Dem party itself is super diverse in spectrum, while all GOP basically want the same few things.

First past the post electoral system creates this. And can't do anything about it unless you revamp your entire political system.
 
Jan 15, 2019
4,393
I'd love if the Republican party dissolved and we had a centrist Democrat party v left Democrat party. But we're way further away from that reality than ERA sometimes makes it seem.
I don't think the Republican party will dissolve. I just think they'll lose Texas in 2020 or 2024 and this will shock them into moving leftward (and if that doesn't work then losing Texas a 2nd time by 2028 will definitely do it), at which point we'll have what we currently envision as a centrist party, even though when it happens they'll still be considered right-wing. We'll just have redefined what it means to be right-wing.
 
Jan 15, 2019
4,393
Nahh Cant happen. Current situation is. Republicans and Non-Republicans
Republicans have a pretty universal identity and Democrats are just Anti-<That>

So its not really possible to have a "halfway" Anti-<That> party. Anyone taht isn't fully engrosed in GOP ideology is a Democrat.
Its the reason why when Dems get in power they can't get anything done, because The Dem party itself is super diverse in spectrum, while all GOP basically want the same few things.

First past the post electoral system creates this. And can't do anything about it unless you revamp your entire political system.
You say this as though the GOP was actually good at getting anything done when they had control of all 3 branches of govt recently. They couldn't even keep their own govt open, much less use it to pass their agenda.
 

Mahonay

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,318
Pencils Vania
Ideally, I think there would be even more. Greens, democratic socialists, social democrats, third way centrists, conservatives, authoritarians, libertarians, and maybe more. Under a well-designed ranked choice system you could have a wide berth of parties without needing to necessarily create such broad coalitions.
I'm think in terms of what the current system might actually support. But you are right.
 

Drakeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,275
We won't until a majority of republicans stop getting all their info spoon fed from Fox News. Not sure how you combat that. Hard to fight a propaganda network. But right-wing talk radio (rush, et. al) and fox news are why things have been radicalized so much since the 90s. It's why I don't see republicans flipping on Trump like they did Nixon, but I hope I'm wrong.

What we really need is for some billionaire to buy Fox News and shut it down, but that's never gonna happen. Still, if Bloomberg or Bezos or whoever really wanted to do a lot of good, buying Fox News and immediately firing about 80-90% of their TV personalities would be a good start. At the very least, even if some of the more popular personalities (Hannity) switched to online, it might elude some of their older audience and they might see less propaganda.
 

ZealousD

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,303
Nahh Cant happen. Current situation is. Republicans and Non-Republicans
Republicans have a pretty universal identity and Democrats are just Anti-<That>

So its not really possible to have a "halfway" Anti-<That> party. Anyone taht isn't fully engrosed in GOP ideology is a Democrat.
Its the reason why when Dems get in power they can't get anything done, because The Dem party itself is super diverse in spectrum, while all GOP basically want the same few things.

This isn't really true. The GOP is a coalition just like the Democrats. They're more willing to get behind "their guy" than the Democrats because of their authoritarian lean but that doesn't mean that they can't be divided in ideology. Think about the Freedom Caucus for a moment and how they disruptive they can be of the rest of the Republican Caucus.
 

PMS341

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,634
Being a centrist in America requires you to give leverage to a party of Nazis and White Supremacists, so it doesn't seem realistic unless you enjoy or benefit from the privilege the Far-Right clamors to maintain.
 
Jan 15, 2019
4,393
We won't until a majority of republicans stop getting all their info spoon fed from Fox News. Not sure how you combat that. Hard to fight a propaganda network. But right-wing talk radio (rush, et. al) and fox news are why things have been radicalized so much since the 90s. It's why I don't see republicans flipping on Trump like they did Nixon, but I hope I'm wrong.

What we really need is for some billionaire to buy Fox News and shut it down, but that's never gonna happen. Still, if Bloomberg or Bezos or whoever really wanted to do a lot of good, buying Fox News and immediately firing about 80-90% of their TV personalities would be a good start. At the very least, even if some of the more popular personalities (Hannity) switched to online, it might elude some of their older audience and they might see less propaganda.

Everyone 40 and under already favors democrats by about 2:1 margins. We don't need the majority of Republicans to do anything, they'll either update their views or they'll stop being a nationally viable party, just as we saw with Democrats from 1968-1992 in which they only held one term in that entire time span, and even then only due to blowback from Watergate.
 

Terrell

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
Canada
You act like Canada and Québec never had minority leading parties.

It's more and more common to have a minority rule than a majority one which forces the governing party to work with others

Pluripartism is extremely important

The minority governments we've seen have been a blip on the radar in comparison, usually because majoritarian voting systems encourage opposition to force an election at the closest sign of government weakness, which almost always backfires and the ruling party is delivered more seats until they reach a majority. See: the most recent Conservative government federally. Lot of good all that soft-power influence had, when all it did is make Conservatives look more palatable to the population while they continued to behave like they held a majority regardless, with any compromise they might have engaged in immediately betrayed the moment they were given a majority.

Trying to write that is as some sort of positive influence or a plus for multiple parties in a voting system designed for a 2-party democracy is eyebrow-raising, to say the least. It's not true compromise and you have to stop pretending it is. Any positive effects of it or party policy changes are immediately washed away when a majority is inevitably achieved, so it becomes nothing but temporary political theatre at best. The only way that any of what you suggest could be a positive is if a majority could never be achieved, but it inevitably occurs.

But this is becoming a very off-topic discussion, so I'll try to wrap this up in a way that's helpful to the discussion topic by making the commentary less specific and more general.
I agree with you that multiple parties are important and vital, giving political opportunity to independents is even more important to achieving the best possible representation for a constituency.
But FPTP immediately and irrevocably undermines that effort at every single turn, so simply having multiple parties in a majoritarian electoral system is essentially useless at worst or a faint shadow compared to an actual functional multi-party democracy at best, because the introduction of multiple parties forces a voting system designed to be majoritarian to behave as a plurality voting system, which it was never designed to be and brings about massive failure points.
Even switching to a true plurality voting system would resolve much of the problem, though I wouldn't advocate for that personally in my country. It would be a great stepping stone for the US, however, and it had an immediate positive effect on politics in the few municipalities and states where it was introduced and would open up 3rd-party opportunities, so that would need to be in place before this discussion could be had.

So, Americans, advocate for electoral reform in your state and then a discussion could be had about a 3rd party.
 

Fularu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,609
The minority governments we've seen have been a blip on the radar in comparison, usually because majoritarian voting systems encourage opposition to force an election at the closest sign of government weakness, which almost always backfires and the ruling party is delivered more seats until they reach a majority. See: the most recent Conservative government federally. Lot of good all that soft-power influence had, when all it did is make Conservatives look more palatable to the population while they continued to behave like they held a majority regardless, with any compromise they might have engaged in immediately betrayed the moment they were given a majority.

Trying to write that is as some sort of positive influence or a plus for multiple parties in a voting system designed for a 2-party democracy is eyebrow-raising, to say the least. It's not true compromise and you have to stop pretending it is. Any positive effects of it or party policy changes are immediately washed away when a majority is inevitably achieved, so it becomes nothing but temporary political theatre at best. The only way that any of what you suggest could be a positive is if a majority could never be achieved, but it inevitably occurs.

But this is becoming a very off-topic discussion, so I'll try to wrap this up in a way that's helpful to the discussion topic by making the commentary less specific and more general.
I agree with you that multiple parties are important and vital, giving political opportunity to independents is even more important to achieving the best possible representation for a constituency.
But FPTP immediately and irrevocably undermines that effort at every single turn, so simply having multiple parties in a majoritarian electoral system is essentially useless at worst or a faint shadow compared to an actual functional multi-party democracy at best, because the introduction of multiple parties forces a voting system designed to be majoritarian to behave as a plurality voting system, which it was never designed to be and brings about massive failure points.
Even switching to a true plurality voting system would resolve much of the problem, though I wouldn't advocate for that personally in my country. It would be a great stepping stone for the US, however, and it had an immediate positive effect on politics in the few municipalities and states where it was introduced and would open up 3rd-party opportunities, so that would need to be in place before this discussion could be had.

So, Americans, advocate for electoral reform in your state and then a discussion could be had about a 3rd party.
You missed the point I was making. By having to work with other parties, it has made every canadian party more left leaning. It's thanks to the pluripartism Canada and its provinces enjoy. The very fact that Canada has a thriving political life is telling that while thoroughly imperfect as a system (I personnaly hate it and wish we had a two rounds system like France) it's not preventing the rise (and fall) of numerous parties and the Canadian commons has more than 5 different parties represented as well as independents. The fact we can have such representation means it's not a system that makes it impossible to have more than 2 parties as many suggested here. The problems lie elsewhere (tradition, unwillingness to change or disrupt the status quo, ruling/political dynasties and so on).

France has an incredibly broad political spectrum and many parties thrive in it, allowing for all shades of political colors to be represented (yes, even the shitty ones) and while it's based on a two rounds system that keeps the best 3 before facing them against one another in the second round, that round is still a fptp rule. Yet we've seen new parties and coalitions beeing formed and ruling on the regular (last two examples beeing La RĂ©publique en Marche and La France Insoumise). It kind of proves the system can work if people ARE willing to play it and not confine themselves to a shitty 2 parties alternating power as an inescapable reality
 

Eidan

Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
8,576
I never understand what problem people think a third party would magically solve in American politics.
 

Riskbreaker

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,686
This thread is precisely why you are supposed to talk to people outside of your bubble.

If anything, it would be far more likely for the left to splinter off the Democratic party than for centrists to do so. True centrists (in the USA) much like libertarians, and what ever the fuck other euphamism for Republicans are voting Republican. They just don't want the stigma of doing so.

Our political system would need fundamental change to something closer to a true parliamentary system than the first past the post system it is now.

What do people think a magical third party would solve in the problems our political process has?
 

Gigglepoo

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,317
Centrists would be the least passionate party ever.

Screenshot-20190322-155321-2.png
 

Terrell

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
Canada
You missed the point I was making. By having to work with other parties, it has made every canadian party more left leaning. It's thanks to the pluripartism Canada and its provinces enjoy.

V0l2ZSW.gif


I seriously doubt you'd find any objective on-looker who would consider Doug Ford, Jason Kenney, Maxime Bernier or even the bland Andrew Scheer to be "more left-leaning". The only reason they don't go further right (and considering that they're attending rallies full to the brim with anti-immigrant sentiment, are well-established climate change obstructionists and frequently tied to alt-right mouthpieces like Rebel Media, there's not THAT much further to go) is because there is absolutely zero public appetite for that among the populous itself, not because of multiple political parties magically holding them back. Unless you're going to argue that parties set public opinion instead of the other way around.

The very fact that Canada has a thriving political life is telling that while thoroughly imperfect as a system (I personnaly hate it and wish we had a two rounds system like France) it's not preventing the rise (and fall) of numerous parties and the Canadian commons has more than 5 different parties represented as well as independents.

We could have 100 political parties like some countries do, but number of parties is indicative of nothing if it doesn't change the parties that are capable of actually achieving power, for all the reasons I already mentioned.

France has an incredibly broad political spectrum and many parties thrive in it, allowing for all shades of political colors to be represented (yes, even the shitty ones) and while it's based on a two rounds system that keeps the best 3 before facing them against one another in the second round, that round is still a fptp rule.

Runoff voting as used in France is a plurality system by design, as it is designed to narrow a wider field of candidates with the second ballot, so I am not surprised they have more viable parties. Your boiling down to how each round's votes are tabulated to say it's basically just like FPTP and therefore the same thing can happen under FPTP is incredibly disingenuous.
 

Fularu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,609
V0l2ZSW.gif


I seriously doubt you'd find any objective on-looker who would consider Doug Ford, Jason Kenney, Maxime Bernier or even the bland Andrew Scheer to be "more left-leaning". The only reason they don't go further right (and considering that they're attending rallies full to the brim with anti-immigrant sentiment, are well-established climate change obstructionists and frequently tied to alt-right mouthpieces like Rebel Media, there's not THAT much further to go) is because there is absolutely zero public appetite for that among the populous itself, not because of multiple political parties magically holding them back. Unless you're going to argue that parties set public opinion instead of the other way around.



We could have 100 political parties like some countries do, but number of parties is indicative of nothing if it doesn't change the parties that are capable of actually achieving power, for all the reasons I already mentioned.



Runoff voting as used in France is a plurality system by design, as it is designed to narrow a wider field of candidates with the second ballot, so I am not surprised they have more viable parties. Your boiling down to how each round's votes are tabulated to say it's basically just like FPTP and therefore the same thing can happen under FPTP is incredibly disingenuous.
Yes I'm serious because our conservatives have nothing in common with the shitheels down south

You can Futurama gif it all you want but not even 10 years of conservative rule could take Canada as far back as 8 years of Bush rule (let alone the 2 they've been enjoying under Trump).

You are delusional if tou think Canada's right isn't more lile the right wing of Democrats than even the left wing of the GOP.

Your mind is made that plurality isn't possible so whatever but you've only been listing poorly thought out arguments as to why.

For the record I don't want a proportionate voting system either. No system is perfect but all of the US or UK woes are hardly on the shoulders of the FPTP system
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
No

FPTP is in effect in both Canada and Québec and we have more than two parties. In Québec especially there are currently 4 viable parties

It has more to do with the unwillingness of the current party members to schism and go their own way in fear of forfeiting power to the opposite sides. Yet political coalitions have shown they work in many countries

I don't know how organised the independent parties are like in Canada, but in the US they are severely mismanaged and disorganised. That's a bigger obstacle to them being relevant than the big parties keeping them of the stage. The Green's and Libertarians could be welcomed to the nationals next election and they'd implode by their terrible management. This is why neither have any politicians elected to congress.

Here's a list of third party politicians who got elected. It's short for a reason.
 

Fularu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,609
I don't know how organised the independent parties are like in Canada, but in the US they are severely mismanaged and disorganised. That's a bigger obstacle to them being relevant than the big parties keeping them of the stage. The Green's and Libertarians could be welcomed to the nationals next election and they'd implode by their terrible management. This is why neither have any politicians elected to congress.

Here's a list of third party politicians who got elected. It's short for a reason.
By definition independents have usual strong local bases. They run on their local popularity/political plateforme since it directly targets their local constituents.

In Canada we have several smaller but well organized parties. They are either local or pancanadian (like the Green Party). Sometimes they specifically represent a province to increase its weight politically on the national stage (like Le Bloc Québécois used to do).

We also currently have 3 major parties (convervatives, liberals and neodemocrats). The conservative party was born from the ashes of 2 previous conservative ones.

National organization is obviously key but finding people willing to fight for change with a charismatic leader helps even more. This is how the NDP went from beeing nothing to beeing the official opposition party during the previous elections (before the Liberals won 5 years ago)
 

Ogodei

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,256
Coruscant
We're in the throes of a political realignment but Duverger's law prevents there from being a third party.

The realignment is ideological and demographic both. There will still be left/right parties, but the Democrats are shifting from Third Way Liberalism to a genuinely Progressive stance, really a Green direction if you look at it. Less blue-collar populist than the Social Democrats and focused on futurism in terms of their economic policies, and social issues.

The Republicans are moving from Movement Conservatism (a sort of right-wing mirror of Social Democrats, with a focus on using government to build a conservative agenda), to a purely reactionary one (a party with little to no guiding vision rather than kneejerk reactions to what goes on around them).

The demographic shifts are in terms of rural whites and blue collar whites moving more solidly Republican, while the 10% (people below the 1%) are becoming more Democratic as education in this country begins to correlate more strongly with left-wing voting. It really divides the country on an urban rural divide. Wealthy and poor (unless you're ultra-wealthy in which case you lean GOP), you're more united based on where you live.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
By definition independents have usual strong local bases. They run on their local popularity/political plateforme since it directly targets their local constituents.

In Canada we have several smaller but well organized parties. They are either local or pancanadian (like the Green Party). Sometimes they specifically represent a province to increase its weight politically on the national stage (like Le Bloc Québécois used to do).

We also currently have 3 major parties (convervatives, liberals and neodemocrats). The conservative party was born from the ashes of 2 previous conservative ones.

National organization is obviously key but finding people willing to fight for change with a charismatic leader helps even more. This is how the NDP went from beeing nothing to beeing the official opposition party during the previous elections (before the Liberals won 5 years ago)

Thanks.

Independent parties have difficulty finding charismatic leaders, the big ones are Jill Stein and Gary Johnson (who switches Republican every few years). They have greater success with movie stars running for governor, weirdly lol

This is the Libertarian convention!



Here's their strongest candidate.



The Green's are better, but, well, Jill Stein is their MVP.
 

Fularu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,609
Thanks.

Independent parties have difficulty finding charismatic leaders, the big ones are Jill Stein and Gary Johnson (who switches Republican every few years). They have greater success with movie stars running for governor, weirdly lol

This is the Libertarian convention!



Here's their strongest candidate.



The Green's are better, but, well, Jill Stein is their MVP.

In the US I think the problem is money more than anything. The US elections are rigged by definition because of how electoral spending works.

For example Macron's whole campaign in 2017 cost less than 60 million euros. That wasn't even a week for Clinton. Small parties can't compete.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
In the US I think the problem is money more than anything. The US elections are rigged by definition because of how electoral spending works.

For example Macron's whole campaign in 2017 cost less than 60 million euros. That wasn't even a week for Clinton. Small parties can't compete.

That's the presidential campaigns, of course they'd be like that. Small parties don't have the organisation to do that so why not focus fully on congress and governorships? Money always affects political campaigns. This is the industry they chose, which is why it's important for their leadership to adjust to get the advantage. They need to fight for that, not simply blame the big parties and shrugging.
 

Fularu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,609
That's the presidential campaigns, of course they'd be like that. Small parties don't have the organisation to do that so why not focus fully on congress and governorships? Money always affects political campaigns. This is the industry they chose, which is why it's impotant for their leadership to adjust to get the advantage. They need to fight for that, not simply blame the big parties and shrugging.
It's like that at every level. Hundreds of millions are spent at the senatorial, governor or congressional levels. US political spending and its ties to corporate interests are far far more damaging than either beeing fptp or two rounds or proportionate voying systems.

And to that add very very lax adverts laws and you have a recipe for the situation you guys are in
 

Psittacus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,933
First-Past-The-Post does nothing to discourage third parties. There are healthy third parties in many countries that operate FPTP, especially combined with parliamentary style democracy (Canada and the UK for example).
Third parties in Canada and the UK win seats in spite of the system acting against them. Growing support for a party inherent means making the people you don't agree with more like to win. The only reason they manage to win is because people don't vote rationally.
 

Terrell

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
Canada
Yes I'm serious because our conservatives have nothing in common with the shitheels down south

You can Futurama gif it all you want but not even 10 years of conservative rule could take Canada as far back as 8 years of Bush rule (let alone the 2 they've been enjoying under Trump).

Stephen Harper has been stanning for Trump all over American television and in interviews recently. When in office, he de-funded climate science, consolidated power to the PMO to make our politics more like America, started up the anti-immigrant "Barbaric Practices Hotline", attempted to abuse parliamentary procedure to shut down dissent when he held a minority government... I could go on for hours about how little you paid attention to the Tory government in order to form this terrible take on the state of right-wing politics in this country prior to 2015.

And that's to say nothing of the fact that Harper played nice to keep electable until he achieved his majority and then railroaded everyone else in parliament with terrible policy like every other conservative government of the time. He didn't tone it down because other parties were getting him to compromise like you have been suggesting, he toned it down purely to deceive the electorate into thinking the party wasn't as right-wing as down south. Clearly, you were quite well deceived, so bravo to them, I suppose.

You are delusional if tou think Canada's right isn't more lile the right wing of Democrats than even the left wing of the GOP.

The current Conservatives are in bed with alt-right voters and alt-right media (employees of Rebel Media are on the Tory payroll), while they try to maintain a thin veneer of respectability. But somehow they're less conservative than the US Dems?

I'm sorry that you're not up to speed on how the Conservatives operate here, but perhaps you'd like to take your opinion to the Canada PoliEra discussion thread, if you think your opinion on the matter is so rock-solid. I think you'll find anyone there who's been paying attention will assure you that it's quite to the contrary. Besides, as I said, this is a thread primarily about American politics, so perhaps you can feel free to air this opinion in a relevant thread and keep the discussion more general and less specific to a particular country.