Is there a fundamental difference between game music piracy and rom piracy?

[duckroll]

Recently because of the Nintendo takedown of a major rom site, there was a lot of debate about game preservation and all that. Within the debate were many militant posts about how roms are illegal and Nintendo has to protect their copyright. All fair. People who admit to pirating games get banned pretty quickly here. Also a good thing. We should not encourage a culture in the community where people pirate things openly. Right?

Then I step into any thread about music, especially game music and soundtracks. And there are tons of embeds of complete tracks from Youtube accounts which are essentially pirating the music and providing them for free. I myself have done this because it's so easy to link something to share a track you really like. But this is also illegal right? It's against the law! It's copyright infringement! And with the way music is consumed today, it's not even a case of "one track is just part of an album, so it's not complete piracy of a work" because tracks are sold ala carte on music services. Each embed of a track that is sold on iTunes is essentially piracy of a track that is being sold for 1-2 bucks at least. Yet we all seem okay with that. Do we value/respect music publishers and composers less than we value/respect game publishers somehow? If so, why?

 

[Animagne]

Yes, it's piracy. Just because it's uploaded to youtube doesn't make it legal.

The issue with video games music is that it can be hard to get access to. It might require buying collector's edition (for a partial soundtrack) or importing a japanese release of the soundtrack. Games like Persona 5 are unavailable on streaming services and the only place you can buy them is iTunes (but only in US).

 

[Khanimus]

1) if an artist is big enough, they will never have to worry about their music being lost or go unarchived.

2) if an artist is so small, chances are the YouTube embed is doing more to give them exposure and earn them a new fan.

3) game publishers on the other hand can be notorious about how old games get preserved (if they get preserved at all). There are games that are such licensing nightmares that guarantee they will almost never be released again.

Metal Warriors is an SNES game made by Konami and Lucasarts. It came out so late in the platform's life that it never even garnered a real cult fanbase despite being pretty damn great. Who is going to take responsibility to put that back out? Is Disney going to call Konami about this smaller-than-cult-status SNES game? Or Aladdin on SNES with Capcom? Do you think Disney cares that Gladius, a game by Lucasarts, is in their library and that they're going to ensure the work gets done to see it rereleased? Who takes responsibility for a major cultural touchstone like Goldeneye?

 

[Falconbox]

Very coincidental timing. Just saw a thread on Reddit where someone had been anticipating the soundtrack to Super Lucky's Tale coming out, and after months of waiting and "soon" from the devs decided to go into the game files and get the music themselves.

No idea if the devs said they were going to charge for it or not though, but people in the comments were saying how it was basically stealing.

https://www.reddit.com/r/xboxone/comments/98b32r/super_luckys_tale_soundtrack_now_available_for

 

[Dyle]

A lot of music on YouTube has been monetized by the original owners rather than the channel owners so they aren't quite in the realm of total piracy. Those that aren't monetized by the original owner tend to be DMCAed.

If the copyright holders found it to be in their best interest they could shut down all of them, but they probably get more out of keeping them up and taking a portion of the ad revenue generated. If roms were made available on platforms that copyright holders could monetize, at least partially, they likely wouldn't force them to take their games down completely.

Emuparadise or whatever other rom sites don't have the leverage, financially or in terms of userbase, to make an equivalent policy to YouTube's, which itself only exists because the site had the foresight to build their content ID system in a way that greatly benefits copyright holders.

 

[Miller]

People probably don't fear game soundtrack piracy the same amount as game piracy because the former does nothing to dissuade the production of future games or game soundtracks. Low sales for a soundtrack don't mean the accompanying game's sequel won't get made.

Still means the composer gets less royalties. Still piracy. But people, as fans of games, don't have a direct, consistently visible consequence to the action of pirating game music.

 

[ethomaz]

Do you mean sharing MP3? Yes it piracy.

Or watching the music on YouTube? Depends because 99% of the musics clips are posted on YouTube by the own artists (like the VEVO channels)... when there is copyright infringement YouTube removes the video ASAP.

 

[texhnolyze]

Not only music, but also movies and shows. Suprisingly, pirating them is still considered normal, even in here.

 

[Hilarious_Bearious]

If the copyrighted material is distributed without the consent of the rights holder, then it is indeed illegal in most circumstances.

If there's no other way to acquire the content other than via piracy, is it immoral? I don't think so.

I in no way condone piracy though, as that would be against the rules.

 

[Miller]

Or watching the music on YouTube? Depends because 99% of the musics clips are posted on YouTube by the own artists (like the VEVO channels)... when there is copyright infringement YouTube removes the video ASAP.

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That barely applies at all to game soundtracks.

 

[Khanimus]

Not only music, but also movies and shows. Suprisingly, pirating them is still considered normal, even in here.

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Who here is sharing movie/TV show piracy links?

 

[duckroll]

Or watching the music on YouTube? Depends because 99% of the musics clips are posted on YouTube by the own artists (like the VEVO channels)... when there is copyright infringement YouTube removes the video ASAP.

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I'm talking about the specific context of game music here. Tons of threads about "Best game soundtrack" or "[x] has an amazing soundtrack" or "Favorite overworld themes" etc, and everyone in them just casually embeds Youtube links of tracks they want to showcase, but they are almost always some random person's channel containing complete soundtrack rips uploaded with a playlist illegally, and because game music isn't usually big sound label stuff, they don't get taken down as often, especially Japanese game soundtracks.

I'm mostly interested in the psychology of this. And using it as a springboard to consider if we should be okay with it on a personal level. Why is this totally normal and okay for everyone to do while simultaneously being very protective of pirating actual games?

For myself, I do it because it's so easy and no one else frowns on it, and often I really want to share a track with others. But I also do buy soundtracks that I really like, and I pay for Spotify, so I think I'm "okay" morally. But even that feels flimsy.

 

[KratosEnergyDrink]

Most fundumental difference: People who download pirated music don't use the hilarious excuse of "preservation".

Honestly there seems to be not much difference, but sharing pirated music is even easier than ROMs.

 

[Giever]

It's a convenient hypocrisy that people would probably prefer remain as is because it's fun to share music in threads.

 

[JustinH]

I've often thought about the soundtrack thing on youtube, and wonder why those videos don't get taken down or something. There are like, so many of them that apparently people don't care about and leave them up. I guess maybe most games don't release their soundtracks as separate purchases, but I'd guess a lot that are good enough to get linked probably do.

When I link a song from a game, I like when I can use accounts that at least look like they're they people who made the music. Like Terence Lee has a youtube channel with a bunch of songs on it (Lifeformed) and I use that usually when I post in a "favorite songs or whatever" thread. If it's not a Dustforce song, then it's probably Machinarium which doesn't look like it has an official video on youtube, or this song(this is someone covering the song on their own piano) from Beyond Good and Evil (at least they gave away this soundtrack for free a while ago).

​

 

[Quad Lasers]

This is a pretty good point. I do wonder how many of the copyright hardliners fold as soon as tracks on youtube enter the equation.

 

[Jimrpg]

This is true, i never really thought about it that way. It was just so easy to search for a track and listen to it.

Is watching a visual novel on youtube also piracy then? How about watching a walking simulator? Where's the line.

 

[Riversands]

A lot of music on YouTube has been monetized by the original owners rather than the channel owners so they aren't quite in the realm of total piracy. Those that aren't monetized by the original owner tend to be DMCAed.

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People probably don't fear game soundtrack piracy the same amount as game piracy because the former does nothing to dissuade the production of future games or game soundtracks. Low sales for a soundtrack don't mean the accompanying game's sequel won't get made.

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There is a truth in this. If i recall again, i bought nier automata because i listened to the pirated soundtracks on youtube. I mean it is illegal of course, but at the same time they are helping the company to advertise Nier. Part of reasons i bought Automata is because the music

 

[texhnolyze]

Who here is sharing movie/TV show piracy links?

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Not actually sharing the links, discussing about streaming is pretty common. For example, as far as I'm aware there's no legal way to watch most of current-season anime on the same day as it's aired in Japanese television. Also, coincidentally people are posting LTTP on movies that just got a BD release. Well, people could've simply bought them, to be fair.

 

[MattWilsonCSS]

Most OSTs that I embed are from indie games that are also available for streaming for free on things like Bandcamp, so it's not a big deal for me.

Not actually sharing the links, discussing about streaming is pretty common. For example, as far as I'm aware there's no legal way to watch most of current-season anime on the same day as it's aired in Japanese television. Also, coincidentally people are posting LTTP on movies that just got a BD release. Well, people could've simply bought them, to be fair.

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Errrr Crunchyroll airs current-season anime within 24 hours of airing if not within the hour (as they get the source material before it airs). Only problem is you get what you would expect from a rushed translation at times.

 

[duckroll]

There is a truth in this. If i recall again, i bought nier automata because i listened to the pirated soundtracks on youtube. I mean it is illegal of course, but at the same time they are helping the company to advertise Nier. Part of reasons i bought Automata is because the music

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Okay, sure, and I do the same. But I feel as online etiquette we have developed this awareness that if we said the same thing about games themselves (ie: old roms are a form of advertising for old games, and people who like playing them on an emulator might also buy them on a modern system if they are re-released later) it would be a big no no. Even if it is true, it's something we shy from, and moderation on the matter is informed by that etiquette. Why do we offer that additional respect in combating game piracy, but not to game music?

 

[low-G]

One thing I've never understood.

If you own a game, is it even technically illegal to copy that music to listen to outside the game? What if the game has its music in mp3 files? What if it's redbook audio? What if you're using some outside tool to rip the music in some way.

FWIW almost ALL music (not just game music) can be found upon YouTube.

 

[texhnolyze]

Errrr Crunchyroll airs current-season anime within 24 hours of airing if not within the hour (as they get the source material before it airs). Only problem is you get what you would expect from a rushed translation at times.

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They have everything? Fair enough, I never knew that. That's pretty cool.

 

[Miller]

I'm talking about the specific context of game music here. Tons of threads about "Best game soundtrack" or "[x] has an amazing soundtrack" or "Favorite overworld themes" etc, and everyone in them just casually embeds Youtube links of tracks they want to showcase, but they are almost always some random person's channel containing complete soundtrack rips uploaded with a playlist illegally, and because game music isn't usually big sound label stuff, they don't get taken down as often, especially Japanese game soundtracks.

I'm mostly interested in the psychology of this. And using it as a springboard to consider if we should be okay with it. Why is this totally normal and okay for everyone to do while simultaneously being very protective of pirating actual games?

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I know that the idealistic response to a television show or film being unavailable for purchase is, "Just because it's unavailable doesn't mean you're owed it.", but I don't know that I can subscribe to that belief when discussing something so unattractive from a profit perspective as to be virtually guaranteed forgotten wholesale if not for a small contingent of enthusiasts playing spc files in Winamp. I am less sympathetic for modern game music that is licensed for distribution through various channels.

An even modestly comprehensive "Spotify for game music" is undoubtedly not on the horizon. There are simply too many insurmountable legal hoops for an overwhelming majority of it. Comparing it to the piracy of traditional music is apples and oranges, from my perspective, but I'm very open to discussion and curious to hear what everyone else thinks.

Edit: An earlier version of this post was fueled by sleep deprivation. I was under the impression that a lot of retro handheld music contained samples provided by the console's sound chip and it appears I was mistaken. Oops!

 

[Deleted member 1839]

Errrr Crunchyroll airs current-season anime within 24 hours of airing if not within the hour (as they get the source material before it airs). Only problem is you get what you would expect from a rushed translation at times.

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I mean there is still airing anime that isn't official sub by places like crunchyroll, sentai, etc. It's especially a case when Netflix gets streaming rights for a show but only streams it domestically in Japan while other countries get it at a later date.

The OP has a good point where both instances are illegal but there isn't much concern about music piracy not just on here but on youtube as well since some videos are taken down but some aren't. It's especially hypocritical for people that are strongly against game roms but casually share music links on here or other places. I definitely want to hear their opinions on this manner.

 

[skeezx]

i can't think of a grayer market than gaming OSTs. traditionally they're just not readily commercially available like most music. i buy tracks when i can and certain publishers definitely want you paying for the content but i think the industry is largely "whatever" about it

 

[MattWilsonCSS]

They have everything? Fair enough, I never knew that. That's pretty cool.

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It's not everything, but only because there's a bit of a fight between various streaming services.. for everyone but Netflix, though, it's the same deal, day and date. Netflix animes come later, but the anime they acquire they also put money into.. so it's not quite the same. Usually we know if Netflix is involved well before the anime airs in Japan. There is also the occasional series that flat out doesn't get picked up, but nowadays that's a lot rarer... Crunchyroll has no bottom to how low they'll dredge in terms of taste -- and I don't mean to dunk on them because they have plenty of good shows too, but they'll get anything they can grab.

 

[Fredrik]

It's not the same quality.
Someone who're interested in music won't listen to the music on youtube instead of buying the CD, and someone who're just casually interested in music and okay with the lower quality on Youtube/mp3 wouldn't have bought the CD anyway.
With games you get the exact same quality on the pirated copy, you don't get anything else if you buy the original.

 

[SmarmySmurf]

Morally and legally its the same thing. Doesn't matter what media is being discussed or how hard it is to find 'legitimately'.

I think the rule on this board is more Era being just like the other place was in wanting to cozy up with industry people, so letting piracy/ROM talk get too far would look bad. There's just as little legal risk linking to a ROM site as there is linking to YT; those hosts are the ones at risk, not the forum talking about and linking to them.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

It's interesting, another thing that I've recently wondered about is undubs, I'm playing the Trails in the Sky games and someone modded in all the voices from the Japanese Vita game into the English PC games of the series, it's amazing and elevates the games soooo much.

The legal way to handle it apparently is to import the Japanese copy, and then use a Vita(which you might not even own) and do who knows what to get the files in your PC and then follow other steps to get the full Audio into the game. (Instructions in here: https://github.com/ZhenjianYang/SoraVoice)

Of course I found out that you can just download the audio files online painlessly and throw the files on the game folder and it works, so I've been wondering about this one as well, when this is not even an option for players in the west and we have to go through quite a lot to get these files in the game, I'd easily pay extra to have it available on Steam as DLC but I'm not going to go through all these hurdles for this.

Another thing is going to be when Dragon Quest XI INEVITABLY gets all the Orchestrated music in the PC game, and there's no way I'm giving the bigot composer a cent of my money.

I will say that I wish we had more music available legally, video game music is like 90% of what I hear and I want to own it all legally or to be able to stream is legally at least.

I love when you can just buy the OST on Steam for example, I've bought several soundtracks that way.

When it comes to music on youtube, it's also interesting, we all share the tracks when it's obviously piracy but no one seems to care, it's odd.

 

[Kvik]

One thing about Falcom which I love the most is their fair music policy. https://www.falcom.co.jp/music_use/ . With this policy you can even create your own rendition of their music, perform it live, create a commercial from it, etc.

Without it Falcom Music Channel probably won't exist, and I would never discover so many good music I could listen to every day. I wish more copyright holders has such policy. I always believe sharing music between individuals without profiting from it is the way to go.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

A lot of music on YouTube has been monetized by the original owners rather than the channel owners so they aren't quite in the realm of total piracy. Those that aren't monetized by the original owner tend to be DMCAed.

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This is why I'm generally fine with listening to game music on Youtube.

Youtube's Content ID system is really, really good when it comes to detecting music of any listenable quality. So if it's on Youtube, the game publisher is very likely okay with it being there on some level.

Now, if you're downloading the music from Youtube and adding it to your own music library, and the soundtrack is actually available, you should probably buy the soundtrack. But outside of that, eh.

 

[MelliiDragon]

I personaly don't think it is the difference between Game Music and Roms but more the difference between music Streaming on Youtube and downloading Roms from a Website.
The first difference is that it is Streaming and not Downloading. The other difference is that because youtube is so agressive and fast in removing copyrighted content (if the rightowner wants to) it basicly established itself as ok and legal to watch whatever is on there.

For example if you would put up a Link to download the Ost for a game here, i think that Post would be taken down as well. On the other hand if there would be a Website where you could play old Roms online without downloading them and a rightholder could take them down without Problem exist. And that Website established itself over time as legal to consume its stuff, i don't think it would be a Problem to share it here anymore (even though I could be wrong there, but it doesn't exist anyway)

I don't always agree how Youtube handles copyrighted content and they need to improve with some stuff there, but they definitly managed to established themselve as legal to consume the content. And that is the important part if we talk about sharing the stuff here.

 

[Schlomo]

I've always thought it's bizarre that this is accepted. You'd think that big companies like Square Enix or Nintendo could copyright claim the videos on YouTube, at least the ones where official CD releases exist. I do feel stupid sometimes for paying 40 - 50€ on imported game music CDs when everyone else here just listens to it on YouTube.

Same thing with manga, you get the feeling that 90% of people here just read scans.

 

[RippleField]

I've always felt the games industry needs to pay way closer attention to how the music industry handles things, and how people like to consume their media and do their best to accommodate and profit off it. There is no way they will ever ever ever successfully fight off and destroy game piracy, you just have to compete with piracy. We've got some streaming service that are easier and faster to listen to the music you want than less legitimate sources, and DRM-free purchases of music is commonplace.

PC gaming is starting to catch on with more storefronts offering DRM-free as their main selling point. You can relatively easily pirate all these games, but people still buy them, people like having that legitimacy, they like to support creators of the stuff they love. Console companies are still far from understanding this. Nintendo continues to police sites that host games they haven't offered since their initial limited release.

Everyone is daydreaming of the slim chance that Nintendo's online service will do the correct thing and offer up a comprehensive catalog of old games for a flat fee, but this is a fool's hope.

 

[Chairmanchuck (另一个我)]

Errrr Crunchyroll airs current-season anime within 24 hours of airing if not within the hour (as they get the source material before it airs). Only problem is you get what you would expect from a rushed translation at times.

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I wouldnt say thats the only problem. Bitrates are horrible with Crunchyroll compared to a real airing on japanese TV.

The first difference is that it is Streaming and not Downloading. The other difference is that because youtube is so agressive and fast in removing copyrighted content (if the rightowner wants to) it basicly established itself as ok and legal to watch whatever is on there.

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There is a discourse in legal circles (at least here in Germany) whether streaming is downloading, because technically your browser is downloading the data when you stream something.

 

[Dyle]

Thinking more about it, I think it comes down entirely to the fact that publishers don't go after these people, so why should it be considered to be piracy? Can something be pirated if the owner knows that it is being copied and distributed illegally yet does almost nothing to stop it?

Take brawlbrstms, which has existed in some form since roughly 2010. It is explicitly built off of content directly ripped from games, the channel name itself referring to SSBB's custom music file extension. It has been taken down a couple times, I believe by small obscure rights holders, not the major publishers, hence their current name Brawlbrstms 3 X. Their response has simply been to not upload content from those publishers.

But it's not just a YouTube channel, they also have a site, https://www.smashcustommusic.com, where they upload every single song they have, over 60,000 of them, for direct download in numerous formats very explicitly for use with modded consoles. All it would take would be a C&D, but apparently no company considers it to be worth it. If the rights holders are not bothered by it then we as consumers should not be bothered by it. It's a weird policy that I don't really understand, but as someone who loves vgm I certainly can't raise any issues with it.

 

[Chairmanchuck (另一个我)]

Can something be pirated if the owner knows that it is being copied and distributed illegally yet does almost nothing to stop it?

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Yes. I worked for an anime-publisher before and japanese, before Crunchyroll and co. knew about fansubs. Taking them down though is a battle against a Hydra. First of all an international case is far too expensive. Second of all even if you win a case like that, you took down one site, another just spawns. Third if files are shared on some IRC server in a country Japanese dont have a legal agreement with concerning copyright (like the Berne agreement), nothing much can be done.

 

[Mcjmetroid]

Remember cassette tapes? Recording the radio when your favourite track came on is technically piracy and it was considered normal and nobody even knew it was piracy or even cared. This also went for video tapes. However you were never getting a picture perfect recording of your song or video.

Similar to YouTube. When you play a track on YouTube of your favourite gaming track it's a compressed version and isn't going to sound 100 percent as good as it could. People who want the music properly will seek it out.

Piracy will always be there. Piracy in generally is bad but I really think the videogame industry needs to fight it's battles properly. Going after Retro game sites isn't the way to do it. Why even bother with retro games at this point?, Of course the piracy situation with the Switch should be combatted.

The only way to stop piracy is to learn to adapt to it and live beside it. Trying to shut down sites isn't the way to do it. Learn to make a better system than the hackers who are doing it better than you.

 

[Hektor]

No there isn't and the only reason there seems to be a difference is the fact that a lot of morally self-righteous hypocrites have no logical consisterncy about when to scream about muh piracy and when to copyright infringe themselfs.

 

[Batatina]

I do wish game publishers put game songs on Spotify more diligently (I think their contracts don't allow for this but they should). So often I try to find songs from games and the only place they are available is pirated on youtube.

 

[1000% H]

When I look for video game music on legal streaming services, they are almost never there. When I look for video game music on YouTube, they are always there.

 

[oni-link]

No there isn't and the only reason there seems to be a difference is the fact that a lot of morally self-righteous hypocrites have no logical consisterncy about when to scream about muh piracy and when to copyright infringe themselfs.

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Pretty much this

 

[entrydenied]

I'm always surprised by how easy it is to find complete soundtracks of games on youtube. I don't think it's different from downloading roms to be honest. Some people might bring up the "we're just streaming and not downloading" defence but as long as you're consuming the media it really isn't that different.

In fact, it's probably much easier to ge legal copies of these soundtracks, by importing from places like Amazon Japan for example, then getting roms of 20 year old games that are not sold officially on any platforms.

 

[klee123]

What's worse is that some of the uploaders of game soundtracks put ads on them too.

 

[Deleted member 5491]

I would gladly buy COMPLETE Soundtracks from publisher stores, Amazon, whatever
but most OSTs aren't avaiable outside of Japan or aren't complete at all.

Just gimme the possibility to buy these or listen to them on Spotify

 

[duckroll]

I do wish game publishers put game songs on Spotify more diligently (I think their contracts don't allow for this but they should). So often I try to find songs from games and the only place they are available is pirated on youtube.

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Do you feel that music publishers are obligated to take a bad deal just so you can feel good about legally streaming their music? Spotify is super popular, but by most accounts unless you are already super duper popular it is a terrible deal for those providing the music on the platform, and the best they can hope to get out of it is exposure and some pocket change.

 

[EarthPainting]

I never really thought about this, but it's a valid observation.

One thing about Falcom which I love the most is their fair music policy. https://www.falcom.co.jp/music_use/ . With this policy you can even create your own rendition of their music, perform it live, create a commercial from it, etc.

Without it Falcom Music Channel probably won't exist, and I would never discover so many good music I could listen to every day. I wish more copyright holders has such policy. I always believe sharing music between individuals without profiting from it is the way to go.

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Similarly, I wasn't aware that this was a thing either. This is pretty awesome of them.

 

[oni-link]

What's worse is that some of the uploaders of game soundtracks put ads on them too.

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ROM sites do that as well, and I think we can all agree that profiting from the work of others you don't have the rights to is wrong

The issue raised by the OP is there is no real difference legally in terms of pirating game music you didn't pay for and pirating game ROMs you didn't pay for

Both are equally wrong, legally, however most of us will YouTube a game song or link it in a thread and no one cares

If someone streams or downloads a game OST from a game that's no longer being sold and where there is no way to legally buy the OST and no way to fund the rights holder of the OST, is that morally wrong?

What about doing the same for a game no longer being sold in a way that funds the rights hold?

#banerauserswhoembedosts

 

[Batatina]

Do you feel that music publishers are obligated to take a bad deal just so you can feel good about legally streaming their music? Spotify is super popular, but by most accounts unless you are already super duper popular it is a terrible deal for those providing the music on the platform, and the best they can hope to get out of it is exposure and some pocket change.

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I do feel it would be much better, as many more people would enjoy their music while giving them some money for it. Especially after they already paid for said game.