effzee

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,356
NJ
I know this is a random twitter post but it's really a great read that deserves to be read from anyone who has even a little interest in the topic,excuse me if it has been posted already

View: https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1711780282725011520


good read but i see the concerns others have brought up. i also noticed the note about iran that he slipped in. isn't it proven that none of the money Biden freed up has even made it to iran yet and can only be used for humanitarian needs?

"The Arab states had already rejected a partitioned Israel repeatedly before World War II and rejected it again after the Holocaust and the end of the war. They did not want to give up even a little bit of their land to a bunch of Jewish interlopers who were granted it all of a sudden by British interlopers who had arrived a hundred years prior. Who could blame them? It had been centuries since Jews lived there in large numbers, and now they wanted to return in waves as secularized Europeans. Many of us would probably react the same way. So, just as humans have done forever, they fought. The many existing Arab states turned against the burgeoning new Jewish state. One side won and one side lost. This is the brutal and broken and violent world we live in, but it is what created the global world order we have now.

...But if you want to blame Israeli leaders for continuing to expand and settle land that does not belong to them (as I do), then you should also spare some blame for Palestinian leaders for repeatedly not accepting a partitioned Israel during the 20th century that could have led to peace (as I do)."

A little bit? It was an unfair deal. Majority of the land was going to Jewish state, and a lot of the land was not fit for agriculture. There were plans to expand and get more of Palestinian land. This whole post comes across as centrist misinformation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine
"Zionists attributed Arab rejection of the plan to mere intransigence. Palestinian Arabs opposed the very idea of partition but reiterated that this partition plan was unfair: the majority of the land (56%) would go to a Jewish state, when Jews at that stage legally owned only 6–7% of it and remained a minority of the population (33% in 1946).[127][128][129][130][131][132][133][134][135] There were also disproportionate allocations under the plan and the area under Jewish control contained 45% of the Palestinian population. The proposed Arab state was only given 45% of the land, much of which was unfit for agriculture. Jaffa, though geographically separated, was to be part of the Arab state.[135] However, most of the proposed Jewish state was the Negev desert.[56][55] The plan allocated to the Jewish State most of the Negev desert that was sparsely populated and unsuitable for agriculture but also a "vital land bridge protecting British interests from the Suez Canal to Iraq"[136][137]"

might be wrong but i thought he meant the deals post 67 war/borders.

I get healthy skepticism in the face of such a serious situation, but at this point the room is filled with blinding smoke and flames yet we still have people wondering if there is a fire.


At some point you just have to admit you were wrong that the horrible event occured.

for me at least, its not about not believing it to score some points. i just don't want it to be true. abuse of kids/babies hits me to my core and i just don't wish it to be true.
 

dude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
Tel Aviv
While may true, that account looks extremely unreliable, compounded by having the Russian Z in the profile.
It's not the Russian Z, it's just a username, and I know this person personally - but I'll remove if needed.

So it has gone beyond Gaza and now to the West Bank?

So far these are just incidents of settlers using the chaos for violence. There's no widespread fighting in the west bank
 

Goda

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,457
Toronto
It was bad everywhere. Even online had different reporters calling other reporters liars at times.

This article is originally older, even though it was updated today. The Verifiable images are being reported in the past hour or so. Think folks need to keep calming down about trying to discredit specifics, as I've said multiple times, because does it matter if the babies were beheaded, burned, or shot in the head as matter of death?
To me a child murdered is a child murdered. The difference is that IDF is constantly trying to make the Palestinians look like barbarians/animals to legitimize their actions against Gaza. To you and I it's the same but not to others.
 

dude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
Tel Aviv
To me a child murdered is a child murdered. The difference is that IDF is constantly trying to make the Palestinians look like barbarians/animals to legitimize their actions against Gaza. To you and I it's the same but not to others.
We have pictures of babies burnt alive. Would love to know if that is less or more barbaric than beheading them?
Like, seriously, what even is this disscusion.
The IDF actions against civilians are not legitimate either way, but I don't think the inhumane crimes of the people who committed the massacres on Saturday are somehow affected by whether any beheading took place.
 

Red Kong XIX

Member
Oct 11, 2020
8,693
The prime Minister of Israel published photos himself.
I never thought I would write such sentences, but they posted pictures of dead and burnt infants, not decapitated ones.
This discussion is pointless in my opinion because murdering infants is already an incredibly horrible act and the Hamas terrorists did the Palestinian population no favor with their absolutely disgusting actions. But why some Israeli reporters thought they had to one-up this by saying the infants were also decapitated is beyond me.
 
Dec 9, 2018
22,113
New Jersey
Again, I don't really need to see images of beheaded children to know that Hamas has done horrific violent actions against humanity. I also don't need to see children's torn apart bodies to know that Israel's response to this horror is also horrific. It's no question that this war is revealing the absolute worst elements of humanity and its a culmination of hate in its most violent forms.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
53,894
I never thought I would write such sentences, but they posted pictures of dead and burnt infants, not decapitated ones.
This discussion is pointless in my opinion because murdering infants is already an incredibly horrible act and the Hamas terrorists did the Palestinian population no favor with this absolutely disgusting actions. But why some Israeli reporters thought they had to one-up this by saying the infants were also decapitated is beyond me.
We cannot actually be at the point with this where we are saying "okay yeah sure there are dead kids, but they have heads soooo...." especially when we have dozens of other videos and images of horrific things that we KNOW Hamas has done. But for whatever reason it's THIS hill that everyone wants to die on despite all of what we have seen.


I am at a complete loss here. I give up.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,597
Why is there even a pissing contest over what flavor of infanticide is more barbaric? Anyone who has the capacity to mass murder children has peaked on the depravity scale.
 

Deleted member 59

Guest
Oct 27, 2017
45,760
Seattle
It's not the Russian Z, it's just a username, and I know this person personally - but I'll remove if needed.



So far these are just incidents of settlers using the chaos for violence. There's no widespread fighting in the west bank

I appreciate your perspective in this thread, but sharing tweets from non journalist/org could lead to a thread ban/warning. I wouldn't want to lose your perspective.
 

Tbm24

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,942
Why is there even a pissing contest over what flavor of infanticide is more barbaric? Anyone who has the capacity to mass murder children has peaked on the depravity scale.
It plays better to social media's insatiable need to fucking argue for the sake of arguing. Children who shouldn't be dead, are fucking dead. For bullshit reasons on both ends. This sucks, and the focus should be on this stopping not who's fucking worse at killing children.
 

maabus1999

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,251
I never thought I would write such sentences, but they posted pictures of dead and burnt infants, not decapitated ones.
This discussion is pointless in my opinion because murdering infants is already an incredibly horrible act and the Hamas terrorists did the Palestinian population no favor with their absolutely disgusting actions. But why some Israeli reporters thought they had to one-up this by saying the infants were also decapitated is beyond me.

As with everything, confusion abounds. The Prime Minister photos posted were the ones shown to Blinken, which do not show decapitations.

The Jerusalem Post in a separate announcement, has confirmed seeing the images of decapitations and burned bodies. There was also a BBC update in their strolling update stream that referenced an Israeli Coroner who confirmed some infant deaths were by beheading. That is pretty much the ground truth what I've seen so far, and I'm sure more will follow because of how we can see commentary here going.

Still, these images are pretty sensitive and just releasing any is pretty extraordinary.
 

Seik

Member
Jan 5, 2023
1,974
Québec City
I honestly cant wrap my head around the amount of Israeli commentators calling this a holocaust or another battle against Nazis. As a UK outsider watching on, if anyone is closer to matching Germany in the 30s/40s it definitely feels like it would be Israel here.
It seems to be the go-to thinly veiled bullshit reason to justify war crimes these days. Pretty much like Putin did with Ukraine to justify his war.
 
Nov 19, 2019
10,231
I think you're missing the point. We all agree on who the oppressors are. We are simply stating that every kind of resistance will not solely target state/military institutions. It never has and it never will. This doesn't make it good or right.

It happened in the American Revolution, French Revolution, Haitian Revolution, etc. To say otherwise is ahistorical. Revolution and decolonization is never going to be solely aimed at the state and no one is saying that is a good thing.
I appreciate you holding ground on this point. I have considered chiming in a few times, but given the sensitivity of the topic I never feel like I am wording it quite right.

You have a useful and accurate read on the situation, I think continuing to elaborate on that in a hot thread regarding a tragic topic is admirable. Just wanted to share some words of encouragement!
 

Red Kong XIX

Member
Oct 11, 2020
8,693
I know this is a random twitter post but it's really a great read that deserves to be read from anyone who has even a little interest in the topic,excuse me if it has been posted already

View: https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1711780282725011520

I saw this too btw, I think through Marques Brownlee's quote tweet. Really liked it. This and Bernie's statements are great write ups.

Sorry I misunderstood.
No worries.
 

Tsushima

Member
Mar 13, 2021
11
I honestly cant wrap my head around the amount of Israeli commentators calling this a holocaust or another battle against Nazis. As a UK outsider watching on, if anyone is closer to matching Germany in the 30s/40s it definitely feels like it would be Israel here.

It's used to silence any opposition and to justify whatever israel does to Palestinians. Everything is antisemitism and everything is a holocaust.
 

IrishNinja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,866
Vice City
I'm asking about replacing Hamas. There is more than one obstacle standing between the Palestinian people and freedom.

replace them with what, are you familiar with the palestinian authority and how it paved the way for hamas?

moreover, these obstacles you're referring to do not come from a nearly level playing field. to what extent do you believe palestinians have agency over their situation?
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,686
replace them with what, are you familiar with the palestinian authority and how it paved the way for hamas?

moreover, these obstacles you're referring to do not come from a nearly level playing field. to what extent do you believe palestinians have agency over their situation?
I'm not suggesting the Palestinians replace Hamas, I'm suggesting a scenario where a western power overthrows them forcefully. This is the preferred course of action whenever the west has some vested interest, after all.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,686
Fucking hell, we really do have so many people on those forum who are pure warmongers. "YEAH BRO WE SHOULD INVADE AND FORCE DEMOCRACY ON THEM" because that has worked so well so far everywhere else.
Never said it has. If anything I think the opposite is true and the west knows this. But they seem to forget it whenever there is money to be made in the region. I'm trying to shine a light on western hypocrisy here.
 

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,798
I'm not suggesting the Palestinians replace Hamas, I'm suggesting a scenario where a western power overthrows them forcefully. This is the preferred course of action whenever the west has some vested interest, after all.

I have a better idea, we should overthrow the Israeli government and maybe we might get less of that genocidal energy they've been doing for decades. Who knows, maybe you'd end with an actual two state solution.
 

cameron

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
23,912
ca.yahoo.com

Around 70 Canadians stuck in Gaza, government officials say

OTTAWA — Around 70 Canadians are stuck in the Gaza Strip and have asked for help, federal government officials said Wednesday, but the Canadian government has no way of reaching them without a humanitarian corridor. For Canadian citizens, permanent residents and their families seeking to leave...

OTTAWA — Around 70 Canadians are stuck in the Gaza Strip and have asked for help, federal government officials said Wednesday, but the Canadian government has no way of reaching them without a humanitarian corridor.

For Canadian citizens, permanent residents and their families seeking to leave Israel as violent clashes continue, military flights from Tel Aviv to Athens could begin as early as Thursday evening local time.

Officials who spoke with reporters on background Wednesday afternoon said approximately 1,000 Canadian citizens and permanent residents in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank have asked for consular help and about 700 of them want to get on a flight out.

The government has taken the highly unusual step of offering military flights even though the Ben Gurion Airport in Tel Aviv was still open.

Speaking earlier Wednesday, Foreign Affairs Minister Mélanie Joly said the government felt it needed to step in because many commercial flights were cancelled or delayed.

"Usually when there are still commercial flights, we don't do assisted departure," Joly said.

"This is quite rare."

The war, sparked after Hamas conducted surprise attacks across the barrier between Israel and Gaza on Saturday, has already claimed at least 2,300 lives.

Global Affairs Canada said Wednesday afternoon there were 4,227 Canadians registered in Israel and another 475 in the West Bank and Gaza combined, and that the department has responded to 1,990 enquiries since the conflict started last Saturday.

Government officials said about 250 people in the two Palestinian territories have asked for consular help, including the 70 in Gaza.

But without the creation of a humanitarian corridor, which would likely require intervention by the United Nations, there is nothing the Canadian government can do as long as Gaza remains cut off.
 

dude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
Tel Aviv
I have a better idea, we should overthrow the Israeli government and maybe we might get less of that genocidal energy they've been doing for decades. Who knows, maybe you'd end with an actual two state solution.
I mean, I think any normal Israeli citizen right now would ask where they can sign to have their government overthrown :P
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,686
I have a better idea, we should overthrow the Israeli government and maybe we might get less of that genocidal energy they've been doing for decades. Who knows, maybe you'd end with an actual two state solution.
By all means, do so. I'm an Israeli and wouldn't object to it. Every Netanyahu government has done nothing but introduce further corruption and decay into the country.
 

Cation

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
3,603
I'm not suggesting the Palestinians replace Hamas, I'm suggesting a scenario where a western power overthrows them forcefully. This is the preferred course of action whenever the west has some vested interest, after all.
There is a quaint short story of a middle eastern nation that elected a secular democratic leader.

And then the CIA conducted a coup and the country reacted in a way that the CIA didn't expect. It turned to a religious autocracy after it overthrew the western leader.

That nation is Iran.

So no that is not a good solution. The solution must have some component of giving the Palestinians power to vote and some semblance of autonomy otherwise nothing will change as it has for the past century.
 

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,798

Lordfifth

Member
Jul 31, 2022
1,304
*removed non-journalist source*

Ben Gvir and his Nazis are trying to light up the west bank, I'm so fucking mad
Can't someone actually stop these people, they literally go home to home and kick people out, you can't actually be more stereotypically insane to be busy kicking people out of their home while your country is at war
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,686
There is a quaint short story of a middle eastern nation that elected a secular democratic leader.

And then the CIA conducted a coup and the country reacted in a way that the CIA didn't expect. It turned to a religious autocracy after it overthrew the western leader.

That nation is Iran.

So no that is not a good solution. The solution must have some component of giving the Palestinians power to vote and some semblance of autonomy otherwise nothing will change as it has for the past century.
Spoiler: Iran isn't the first or the last time that happened. Americans have a very short memory for these things.
 

dude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
Tel Aviv
Can't someone actually stop these people, they literally go home to home and kick people out, you can't actually be more stereotypically insane to be busy kicking people out of their home while your country is at war
Jewish activists tried to stop them - But the civil administration is now under Smotrich, so they have official power on their side. Smotrich and Ben Gvir are actually insane right now, like, "Shabak needs to arrest them immediately" insane.
 

IrishNinja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,866
Vice City
I'm not suggesting the Palestinians replace Hamas, I'm suggesting a scenario where a western power overthrows them forcefully. This is the preferred course of action whenever the west has some vested interest, after all.

so, let's run with that scenario - the same west that funds/enables israel and the slow genocide of the palestinian people decides to partake in one of its favorite past times, destabilizing/wiping out democratically elected parties it does not favor. this would possibly further please its ally israel, and many people eager to return to not having to be concerned with the plight of palestine

let's further imagine a scenario where the vacuum doesn't create something horrendous. this replacement creates "stability" for a time, because like the palestinian authority before, it is little more than a local body serving as a mouthpiece for the agenda of the state of isreal, akin to how the bureau of indian affairs did for the us state department

this complete lack of legitimacy in the eyes of the actual people puts the situation right back where it was before, ripe for hamas or literally any other militants to be a preferrable option for most people suffering under apartheid and seeking any form of resistance to it

do you see why it's not at all a preferred course for the west? because based on our track record, i can assure you that if it was, they'd long since have done it, and the party in power over here would be nearly irrelevant
 
Nov 23, 2019
7,799
RRT4 ▶︎▶︎▶︎
www.theguardian.com

Dysfunction in Washington leaves Middle East without key US diplomats

Having no US ambassador to Israel in place and Republicans holding up military promotions is a threat to democracy, experts say
Political turmoil in Washington has left the US without key diplomats across the Middle East and raised concerns that years of congressional dysfunction are taking their toll on US leadership.

A devastating weekend attack on Israel by Hamas gunmen has shaken the region and come at a moment when there is no US ambassador in place in Israel, Egypt, Kuwait, Lebanon or Oman.

In addition, the US Agency for International Development (USAid), which leads the government effort to help countries recovering from disaster, has been lacking an assistant administrator for the Middle East for nearly three years. The role is critical for dispatching emergency economic and humanitarian aid to the region. The state department's coordinator for counter-terrorism, who spearheads efforts to defeat terrorism overseas, has also been awaiting confirmation for the better part of two years.